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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1441 - 2012-09-19 15:56:42 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:

hml being better is not the problem. rails and beams being **** and underused is the problem.


They only look back because HML are so good. Same goes for the HAMs.
Bloutok
Perkone
Caldari State
#1442 - 2012-09-19 15:58:05 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Sephanor wrote:


When looking at these numbers keep in mind turrets can change ammo types to take advantage of closer range situations, Heavy Missile users can't.


So the missile chucker dictates the rangeBlink


To dictate range, you need to move faster.
DJ P0N-3
Table Flippendeavors
#1443 - 2012-09-19 15:58:37 UTC
Tomcio FromFarAway wrote:
DJ P0N-3 wrote:
I tried, the forums were terribad at formatting, so I just gave up. Sorry.



DJ P0N-3 wrote:
All right, here's a very rough comparison of HMLs to their short range and long range contenders. Everything is influenced by ship stats, I haven't run the numbers of how it stacks up vs. new HML stats, but I used Scourge Fury instead of CN Scourge! I also looked at how HAM boats compare to pulses/blasters/ACs right now.

Harbinger: 7x heavy pulse laser II, 3x heat sink II, 2x TE II, conflagration, all 5s:
Hurricane: 6x 425mm AC II, 2x HAM II, 3x gyrostabilizer II, 2x TE II, hail and scourge rage, all 5s:
Brutix: 7x heavy neutron blaster II, 3x magnetic field stabilizer II, 1x TE II, void, all 5s:
Drake: 7x HAM II, 3x BCS II, scourge rage, all 5s:

Harbinger...671 DPS, 9.75km optimal + 8.19km falloff
Hurricane...769 DPS, 1.5km optimal + 14.8km falloff/~17km HAM range (will be subject to modification by TEs after patch).
Brutix.........822 DPS, 3.88km optimal + 4.06km falloff
Drake........578 DPS, ~17km HAM range.


Maybe try something like this.
Its much more readable.


I spaced it out better. It takes up more vertical space than a Naglfar, but it's less of a textwall.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1444 - 2012-09-19 15:59:49 UTC
Soko99 wrote:
and short range blaster does more DPS..


That has something to do with long range weapon balance because?
AlexHalstead
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1445 - 2012-09-19 15:59:54 UTC
Soko99 wrote:
AlexHalstead wrote:
Good lords, 72 pages already? Can anyone summarize arguments from those who brought up the point that the TD changes seem to make the armarr EW ships a natural counter to the Caldari missile boats (and minmatar ships that use missiles to a lesser extent)?



Shouldn't the way it works be that Amarr counter Minnie and Gallente vs Caldari? Seeming that those are the races that supposed to be at war with each other?

When the TD affect the missiles, and you have the amarr EW platforms favoring TDs it start to look the way I stated.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1446 - 2012-09-19 16:00:35 UTC
Bloutok wrote:


To dictate range, you need to move faster.


So fit for speed.
Soko99
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1447 - 2012-09-19 16:00:49 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Soko99 wrote:
and short range blaster does more DPS..


That has something to do with long range weapon balance because?


because the reason for part of the nerf is because people were not using the HAMS as much.. (I believe it's the first CSM reply in this threadnaught)
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#1448 - 2012-09-19 16:01:30 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:

hml being better is not the problem. rails and beams being **** and underused is the problem.


They only look back because HML are so good. Same goes for the HAMs.

bullshit. no one in their right mind would use medium beams over pulses and rails over blasters except in a few select situations. sniping with medium weapons is just not competitive except with artillery because of its great alpha, cap independence and damage selection. if you nerf HMLs the law of the land will be go artillery or go brawler. nothing in between.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Cartheron Crust
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1449 - 2012-09-19 16:01:48 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Why nerf things when you could buff things instead? When we are balancing in a game like Eve we always need to be concious of the danger presented by power creep. In some games where the progression is tied to ever advancing gear stats power creep isn't a big issue as it is built into the whole premise of the game. In a sandbox like Eve player advancement is tied to individual freeform goals and we need to make sure that the tools available are both interesting and balanced. Any time we buff something in Eve, we are nerfing every other item in the game slightly by extension. In a case like this we believe that the best course of action is to adjust the Heavy Missiles downwards to achieve balance.


Aware of power creep? You mean like introducing a new BC tier that uses BS weapons and has better agility (+50%) and better speed (+50%) than the current tier 2 BC's that are getting nerfed because they are a little overpowered atm? Or introducing a tanking module that is far better than any other tanking module in the game so much so that it obsoletes other fits meant for a ship via its bonuses? Or introducing Tech 3's that are easier to skill for and overshadow other types of ship in the game at their intended roles (T3's as HAC's/Linkships)? Or Fighterbombers?

Yes I can see CCP is very aware of power creep. Roll

I also await the day of "Put a TD on everything".
Bloutok
Perkone
Caldari State
#1450 - 2012-09-19 16:02:47 UTC
If long range arty canes were useful, or any other medium long range guns, this nerf could be ok. But none of the long range are good. Thus, nerfing damage and range will make HM useless.
Lord Ryan
True Xero
#1451 - 2012-09-19 16:03:21 UTC
JC Anderson wrote:
There was a reason I trained all races frigs, cruisers, and bs to 5. And all races t3 sub systems to 5. In additions to training up to use all tech 2 weapons systems.

There ALWAYS seems to be something getting nerfed, and it's the best way to make sure you can fly whatever fotm is until it gets nerfed not long after.

Though, is this really a good thing?




Same here, but doesn't make it any less of a kick in knutts.

Now we have 10 bad BCs instead of 7 or 8.

Now we have 4 sucky LR weps instead of 3.

Breaking stuff to bring it on par that's progress!

Do not assume anything above this line was typed by me. Nerf the Truth, it's inconvenient.
Bloutok
Perkone
Caldari State
#1452 - 2012-09-19 16:04:20 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Bloutok wrote:


To dictate range, you need to move faster.


So fit for speed.



I cannot outspeed a cane.... I tried. 2 nanos and still that cane was 100 m/s faster then me. I have all speed related skills to 5 and i use zor's thingy.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1453 - 2012-09-19 16:04:37 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:

bullshit. no one in their right mind would use medium beams over pulses and rails over blasters except in a few select situations. sniping with medium weapons is just not competitive except with artillery because of its great alpha, cap independence and damage selection. if you nerf HMLs the law of the land will be go artillery or go brawler. nothing in between.


I already use rails over blasters in many situations.
Aprudena Gist
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1454 - 2012-09-19 16:04:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Aprudena Gist
CCP Fozzie wrote:

The damage per second of heavy missile ships like the Drake seems low, why are you making it even lower?[/b]
I believe the main source of disagreement here comes from comparisons between Heavy Missiles (a long range weapon platform) and short range weapons like autocannons or blasters. Once upon a time Heavy Missiles were the only medium missile system, and therefore shared features from both close range and long range weapons. Later Heavy Assault Missiles were introduced and were quite good, but Heavy Missiles still overshadowed them since they did similar damage at close range and HMs had the advantage of steller long range performance. There are legitimate problems with many long range weapon systems at the medium size, but the fact that people have gotten used to comparing Heavy Missiles with short range guns should be taken as one of the signs that Heavies are far too good.


HAMs are not good they are ****. They move slow they have slow explosion speed and can't hit a target if its actually moving unlike the rest of the weapon systems.

HAMs are also too hard to fit on a ship properly they should be easier to fit then heavy missiles but they are not.

Quote:

Harbinger: 7x heavy pulse laser II, 3x heat sink II, 2x TE II, conflagration, all 5s:
Hurricane: 6x 425mm AC II, 2x HAM II, 3x gyrostabilizer II, 2x TE II, hail and scourge rage, all 5s:
Brutix: 7x heavy neutron blaster II, 3x magnetic field stabilizer II, 1x TE II, void, all 5s:
Drake: 7x HAM II, 3x BCS II, scourge rage, all 5s:

Harbinger...671 DPS, 9.75km optimal + 8.19km falloff
Hurricane...769 DPS, 1.5km optimal + 14.8km falloff/~17km HAM range (will be subject to modification by TEs after patch).
Brutix.........822 DPS, 3.88km optimal + 4.06km falloff
Drake........578 DPS, ~17km HAM range.


Heavy missiles right now are **** compared to properly fit long range weapon systems on double bonused ships like hurricanes and you are making them even worse. The Biggest ******* thing you idiots dont seem to be factoring in is that all the gun ships have double weapon systems roles on ships and missiles ones are lucky if they have 1 ship bonus to them.

The biggest things you idiots that are redesigning missiles need to do is make the ******* tech 2 ammo work like guns.

1 short range higher damage then the rest of the ammo. This isn't true for a lot of the missile systems.
1 Longer range medium damage. Like pulse, aurora, spike. These dont even exist why are the weapon systems treaded differently.
That needs to apply to all missile systems if you are nerfing the ******* range. The reason the range is longer on them is because they dont have range increasing ammo, mods or anything so **** you if you make this change and dont make the weapon systems equal.


Also **** you for nerfing **** instead of making other ones equal to these ones as a base line. Stop nerfing decent ships just because other ones are **** fix them make them all good.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1455 - 2012-09-19 16:04:53 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Kesthely wrote:


The Heavy missile DPS is not correct here You forget its 10 second flight time so its dps DAMAGE PER SECOND needs to be divided by its travel time. By your dps counter, the heavy missile should get its damage upgraded by 600%

Heavy Missile Launcher II with Caldari Navy Scourge:
DPS: 2.3 (previously 2.9)
Alpha: 189 (previously 237)
Range: 63 km (previously 84)
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 94.5
CPU: 41.3


2.3 DPS?

Good god there isnt a faceplam big enough for this postStraight


Is this big enough?

http://benisawesome.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/facepalm.jpg
Smabs
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1456 - 2012-09-19 16:07:06 UTC
Quote:
I already use rails over blasters in many situations.


Medium rails? Because then you're either trolling or the worst pvp player in Eve.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1457 - 2012-09-19 16:07:32 UTC
Bloutok wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Bloutok wrote:


To dictate range, you need to move faster.


So fit for speed.



I cannot outspeed a cane.... I tried. 2 nanos and still that cane was 100 m/s faster then me. I have all speed related skills to 5 and i use zor's thingy.


I outpace canes in a megathron of all things. It is entirely possible.
Bloutok
Perkone
Caldari State
#1458 - 2012-09-19 16:11:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloutok
baltec1 wrote:
Bloutok wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Bloutok wrote:


To dictate range, you need to move faster.


So fit for speed.



I cannot outspeed a cane.... I tried. 2 nanos and still that cane was 100 m/s faster then me. I have all speed related skills to 5 and i use zor's thingy.


I outpace canes in a megathron of all things. It is entirely possible.


So speed is everything in this game ? I sure think so. But you need enough dps to break a tank. Instead of nerfing damage. Nerf range, a lot.

Edit: Or make HAM the new best short range weapon :)
Illest Insurrectionist
Sparta.
#1459 - 2012-09-19 16:12:55 UTC
Seeing as we can't judge the changes in totality until they are all known could we please have the new stats on T2 missiles? Heavies in particular.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1460 - 2012-09-19 16:13:12 UTC
There's basically nothing the matter with HAMs. Old-school HAM Drake would generally win a 1v1 with another t2 BCs, except frequently the Myrmidon. Rage HAMs do almost full damage to an unwebbed Hurricane, CN HAMs do full damage to almost all webbed cruisers. Since the HAM Drake fits a web, this is not a problem.