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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Recoil IV
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1341 - 2012-09-19 14:14:10 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Rommiee wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Are you even open to changing any of this or are you just planning to ignore everyone?
We are a long way from release and none of these proposals are set in stone. What I will say is that we are set in the belief that heavy missiles do need changes to bring them closer in power to other long range weapons. The details of how that happens is definitely up for debate.


Is that the same type of debate that took place on SISI over the new unified inventory ?

That is, pretend to listen and ignore everyone ?


I obviously can't speak for that situation since I wasn't working here at the time, but I'd simply ask you to keep an open mind and judge these balance changes and the debate around them on their own merit.



can we get caldari spaceship and missile skillpoints reimbursed to be invested in something worthwhile?
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1342 - 2012-09-19 14:14:17 UTC
MIrple wrote:


You cant fix falloff by piloting unless you mean closing range. Hey guess what you can fix missiles the same way then also. Your argument on this is weak as now you suffer the same issues that turret pilots can face out in space. TD are being changed this winter also so hold on the sky is not falling at the moment.


By piloting I mean piloting, meaning not relying on an EWAR module to save you from EWAR, but instead relying on yourself to pilot well (your ships vectoring) to maximize damage. I don't see how the argument is weak.

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#1343 - 2012-09-19 14:14:26 UTC
Beezon wrote:
Will TE/TD affect cruise missiles/FoF cruises/torps too?


Yes Fozzie said they would.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#1344 - 2012-09-19 14:15:20 UTC
Willie Horton wrote:
Recoil IV wrote:
Willie Horton wrote:


No you are so wrong .There was totally different reason ,but that is not topic here.Point is missile ships will get tools to control explosive radius and optimal and that is what they never had.If you check how they are changing Kestrel and Caracal ,than you will see that there is no more kinetic bonus so all damage mods will do same dmg and that is awesom.Gallente and Ammar dont have that option for example.



yes and no.gallente and amarr has 3x times the dps of rockets/missiles and so on


Yes but they have tracking issues maybe?When you fire missile or rocket you dont care will you be in good trasveral .angular or what ever you know that you not miss and do some dmg.So you dont see that as problem at all.

Again I will say I have both Tengu and Drake and I dont see problem in this.It was expected and every game evolve over time so you can please all player per sec.We are not playing this game cause of Drake and Tengu ,but cause of many other things.

"i'm ok with this change so everyone should be!"
this, my dear sir is called bigotry. and thank you for pointing out one of the differences between guns and missiles. you may be aware that there are other differences which are not at all as beneficial to the missiles as the one you named.

after reading most of this topic, i have the following to say: everybody in there throwing around random range and dps numbers is an idiot. paper dps do not matter. neither does paper range, neither does EHP or fitting requirements. it's the combination of all these things and a lot lot more that makes a ship balanced, underpowered or overpowered. the fact of the matter is, most heavy missile ships are underpowered where as the drake and tengu are overpowerd in specific situations. nerfing heavy missiles is throwing the baby out with the bathwater and is NOT what needs to be done.

as for the tracking idea: all i have to say is that it's beyond stupid and i am baffled that CCP would even come up with something like that.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Willie Horton
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1345 - 2012-09-19 14:16:16 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

  • Will the TE/TC/TD changes affect unguided missiles like HAMs and Torps?
    • The plan is for them to affect all missiles, yes.


    Can you make new module or make this option for missiles affected by other EWAR ,asking cause if it stays like this TD will be no brainer and easy to pick as counter.
    DJ P0N-3
    Table Flippendeavors
    #1346 - 2012-09-19 14:17:46 UTC
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    Once upon a time Heavy Missiles were the only medium missile system, and therefore shared features from both close range and long range weapons. Later Heavy Assault Missiles were introduced and were quite good, but Heavy Missiles still overshadowed them since they did similar damage at close range and HMs had the advantage of steller long range performance.


    This explains so much. At this point I'm just surprised that no one took a thresher to them when HAMs were introduced in the first place.

    While I do love the Curse and Pilgrim, I also like the idea of having separate mods for disrupting turrets and missiles, or at least separate scripts.
    Elise Randolph
    Habitual Euthanasia
    Pandemic Legion
    #1347 - 2012-09-19 14:17:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Elise Randolph
    seth Hendar wrote:
    Daneel Trevize wrote:
    Boogie Jones wrote:
    The powergrid nerf on the cane is a bit much imo. It should be able to fit a full rack of 425s + the neuts. What?
    Survey says NO.

    it is already hard to fit a armor cane 220m without a pg implant, and even with a +5pg, it will not be possible anymore to have 220mms + 2 med neut + 1600mm plate.

    however, it will still be possible to fit 425mm + 2 med neut on a shield cane.

    goal missed, this will just kill arty cane (to be checked, since they also reduce de pwg need of artys) and armor close range ones

    because dropping a neut or downgrading a plate is not gonna be worth it.
    congrats, you just made the cane as usefull as a cyclone
    in the mean time, the triple rep myrm still fly

    same for the drake.

    tracking disrupting missiles? are you serious?

    to balance the drake, the only one thing that was required was giving it a bit less tank, that's all (i bet just removing the resist bonus was enought)



    Why would anyone fly a tripple rep myrm when a dual XL-ASB Myrm is possible?

    ~
    Jenn aSide
    Worthless Carebears
    The Initiative.
    #1348 - 2012-09-19 14:18:27 UTC
    rodyas wrote:
    CCP Fozzie wrote:

    "DIE IN A FIRE" is an example of significantly less useful feedback. It doesn't tell us which changes you object to, or what the reasons for your position are. In fact it even makes it hard to tell whether you actually object to the content of the change or are just experiencing an unusually strong craving for S'mores.


    I too think all CCP employees are delicious chocolate and marshmallow treats, ready to be dipped into a fire and eaten deliciously.



    I doubt they are, if CCP was made up of delicious treats, they would have nerfed both fire AND the physics that let fire happen in the 1st place by now.

    *Me clutches Tengu in loving embrace and rocks back and forth slowly as it dies*
    Soko99
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #1349 - 2012-09-19 14:19:31 UTC
    CCP Fozzie wrote:

  • Will the TE/TC/TD changes affect unguided missiles like HAMs and Torps?
    • The plan is for them to affect all missiles, yes.

  • How about remote tracking links?
    • It's possible that we may need to give remote tracking links slightly lower effects to missiles than to guns, but yes the plan is for them to have an effect.

  • Why are you expanding Tracking Disruptors instead of fixing defenders?
    • We had been working on fixing defenders, but the issue was that they caused a very high amount of lag between their own CPU load and the changes in behavior they would cause.

  • This change will make Tracking Disruptors very overpowered!
    • That is a very valid concern and one we will be continuing to look very closely at. Some options on the table include making TDs


    I am still somewhat confused. Currently, I can TD a gun ship and it can still get a lucky shot off and actually hit me. How would that work for missiles? Are missiles now going to be able to MISS? Also, why would a tracking enhancer, and a tracking computer effect the range of a weapon that's supposedly determined by flight time and speed. (Skills that you train).

    Also, turret guns, can adjust their range a little bit. You can take an arty or an A/C and still control your damage out put at different ranges by the ammo you use. Missiles don't have that. Sure you can control your ammo type, but in very very very rare circumstances is that worth doing over the bonus your hull gets to the specific type. On top of that if they're outside of your range, you don't hit. Whereas, turrets get falloff which technically still gives them a chance to do damage OUTSIDE their range, (JUST EXTREMELY SLIM chance). So are we going to get different ranged missiles too?

    I can understand that the HMLs may have been too powerful. However, I'm not a veteran pilot, my tengu with HMLs puts out about 350dps up to 110k. (locking range) with 3 navy BCU's. I swapped the stuff out to HAMS. (and other than the fact that I can't even fit a full rack of the t2 HAMS due to PG) Sure I now get an extra 100DPS. but my range is now down to 26km. ON top of that, with the reduction in the HML, a DED 6/10 complex boss, can even outtank my DPS output. (as I have experienced it where I only had 5 launchers on and the thing kept regenning due to the reloading time. While having 6 launchers it burned down albeit slow). Or is the intention to make the exploration tengu's and drakes all use HAMs. instead now. Since your damage with the HMLs will be laughable.
    Soko99
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #1350 - 2012-09-19 14:21:16 UTC
    MIrple wrote:
    Arduemont wrote:
    Alot of people here seem to be justifying the Heavy Missile nerf by saying "They need it drastically, look how OP Drakes and Tengus are", which is stupidity. Drakes are a little OP, more in blobs than in any other format.

    So address drakes as an issue, dont break the entire missile boat Caldari line. Nighthawks, Cerberus, Caracal, just three useless ships that are about to become even more useless. If you really have to nerf drakes, then nerf them directly, don't ruin all the other heavy missile platforms. The missiles are fine as they are, in fact I would go so far as to say Heavy Missiles are about perfect, and HAMs need a buff.

    CCP, your really not doing yourself any favours nerfing HMs. I could probably get behind a small nerf. The range nerf on its own would be worth some debate, but the 20% damage reduction is lunacy. What happened to rolling out changes "slowly" so that they can be tested and to make sure there are no big reaction? Its been working so far, why stop now?

    Somebody wasn't thinking when this nerf was added to the to-do list.


    Gypsio III wrote:
    Current dual-BCS Caracal: 263 DPS kinetic, 210 non-kinetic, with CN to 120 km, 8.4 km/s missiles.
    Future triple-BCS Caracal: 252 DPS all damage types with CN to 90 km, 9 km/s missiles.

    I'm glad to see the Caracal surviving the deserved HML Drake/Tengu nerf fine.



    Hams + TE/TC's man..

    Thats the way to go!

    So how is this a massive nerf to the Caracal?


    Are you on drugs man? So how is loosing 10dps PLUS 1/4 of your range WHILE using an extra BCU not significant??
    MIrple
    Black Sheep Down
    Tactical Narcotics Team
    #1351 - 2012-09-19 14:21:28 UTC
    Willie Horton wrote:
    CCP Fozzie wrote:

  • Will the TE/TC/TD changes affect unguided missiles like HAMs and Torps?
    • The plan is for them to affect all missiles, yes.


    Can you make new module or make this option for missiles affected by other EWAR ,asking cause if it stays like this TD will be no brainer and easy to pick as counter.


    I agree that there should be a second mod Missile TD as well. TBH there should be different mods for TE and TC for missiles as well. So Missile pilots don't have to train up gunnery skills to use TE or TC. The down side to this is there are a few ships that would benefit from TE and TC effecting both missiles and turrets. But any way that we can put down Winmatar I am ok with :)
    Benny Ohu
    Royal Amarr Institute
    Amarr Empire
    #1352 - 2012-09-19 14:21:41 UTC
    Recoil IV wrote:
    can we get caldari spaceship and missile skillpoints reimbursed to be invested in something worthwhile?

    https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1942484#post1942484
    Suddenly Forums ForumKings
    Doomheim
    #1353 - 2012-09-19 14:21:48 UTC
    Rommiee wrote:
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    Are you even open to changing any of this or are you just planning to ignore everyone?
    We are a long way from release and none of these proposals are set in stone. What I will say is that we are set in the belief that heavy missiles do need changes to bring them closer in power to other long range weapons. The details of how that happens is definitely up for debate.


    Is that the same type of debate that took place on SISI over the new unified inventory ?

    That is, pretend to listen and ignore everyone ?


    Most likely.

    Fear not, Ravens are the New Drakes.
    MIrple
    Black Sheep Down
    Tactical Narcotics Team
    #1354 - 2012-09-19 14:22:49 UTC  |  Edited by: MIrple
    Soko99 wrote:
    MIrple wrote:
    Arduemont wrote:
    Alot of people here seem to be justifying the Heavy Missile nerf by saying "They need it drastically, look how OP Drakes and Tengus are", which is stupidity. Drakes are a little OP, more in blobs than in any other format.

    So address drakes as an issue, dont break the entire missile boat Caldari line. Nighthawks, Cerberus, Caracal, just three useless ships that are about to become even more useless. If you really have to nerf drakes, then nerf them directly, don't ruin all the other heavy missile platforms. The missiles are fine as they are, in fact I would go so far as to say Heavy Missiles are about perfect, and HAMs need a buff.

    CCP, your really not doing yourself any favours nerfing HMs. I could probably get behind a small nerf. The range nerf on its own would be worth some debate, but the 20% damage reduction is lunacy. What happened to rolling out changes "slowly" so that they can be tested and to make sure there are no big reaction? Its been working so far, why stop now?

    Somebody wasn't thinking when this nerf was added to the to-do list.


    Gypsio III wrote:
    Current dual-BCS Caracal: 263 DPS kinetic, 210 non-kinetic, with CN to 120 km, 8.4 km/s missiles.
    Future triple-BCS Caracal: 252 DPS all damage types with CN to 90 km, 9 km/s missiles.

    I'm glad to see the Caracal surviving the deserved HML Drake/Tengu nerf fine.



    Hams + TE/TC's man..

    Thats the way to go!

    So how is this a massive nerf to the Caracal?


    Are you on drugs man? So how is loosing 10dps PLUS 1/4 of your range WHILE using an extra BCU not significant??


    Show me any other t1 cruiser that can apply ~250 DPS at 60k + ranges in every damage type

    Also you get more damage in non kinetic missiles how is this bad?
    Jackie Fisher
    Syrkos Technologies
    #1355 - 2012-09-19 14:23:19 UTC
    CCP Fozzie wrote:

    Will the TE/TC/TD changes affect unguided missiles like HAMs and Torps?
    The plan is for them to affect all missiles, yes.

    To clarify your clarification will it affect both explosion velocity and explosion radius of unguided missiles?

    As I'm sure you aware currently rigs and skills only affect explosion velocity and not explosion radius for unguided missiles, are there any plans to change this?

    Fear God and Thread Nought
    Aliventi
    Rattini Tribe
    Minmatar Fleet Alliance
    #1356 - 2012-09-19 14:24:10 UTC
    CCP Fozzie
    [list wrote:

  • The damage per second of heavy missile ships like the Drake seems low, why are you making it even lower?
    • I believe the main source of disagreement here comes from comparisons between Heavy Missiles (a long range weapon platform) and short range weapons like autocannons or blasters.
    ...
    but the fact that people have gotten used to comparing Heavy Missiles with short range guns should be taken as one of the signs that Heavies are far too good.
    [/list]


    For those of us used to comparing these damage types, can you give us the numbers you are working with to prove that Heavy Missiles deserve the 20% nerf to be balanced?
    Willie Horton
    Brutor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #1357 - 2012-09-19 14:24:47 UTC
    Daniel Plain wrote:
    Willie Horton wrote:
    Recoil IV wrote:
    Willie Horton wrote:


    No you are so wrong .There was totally different reason ,but that is not topic here.Point is missile ships will get tools to control explosive radius and optimal and that is what they never had.If you check how they are changing Kestrel and Caracal ,than you will see that there is no more kinetic bonus so all damage mods will do same dmg and that is awesom.Gallente and Ammar dont have that option for example.



    yes and no.gallente and amarr has 3x times the dps of rockets/missiles and so on


    Yes but they have tracking issues maybe?When you fire missile or rocket you dont care will you be in good trasveral .angular or what ever you know that you not miss and do some dmg.So you dont see that as problem at all.

    Again I will say I have both Tengu and Drake and I dont see problem in this.It was expected and every game evolve over time so you can please all player per sec.We are not playing this game cause of Drake and Tengu ,but cause of many other things.

    "i'm ok with this change so everyone should be!"
    this, my dear sir is called bigotry. and thank you for pointing out one of the differences between guns and missiles. you may be aware that there are other differences which are not at all as beneficial to the missiles as the one you named.

    after reading most of this topic, i have the following to say: everybody in there throwing around random range and dps numbers is an idiot. paper dps do not matter. neither does paper range, neither does EHP or fitting requirements. it's the combination of all these things and a lot lot more that makes a ship balanced, underpowered or overpowered. the fact of the matter is, most heavy missile ships are underpowered where as the drake and tengu are overpowerd in specific situations. nerfing heavy missiles is throwing the baby out with the bathwater and is NOT what needs to be done.

    as for the tracking idea: all i have to say is that it's beyond stupid and i am baffled that CCP would even come up with something like that.


    Sorry but where did I say all people should be ok with this change?I said I am ok with it,cause it is not a big issue as it looks at first.Also I dont plan to fly two ships only during whole time I spent in EVE.So please dont claim I said something that I didnt.

    Also calling people idiots cause they are for this change and attempting to explain why they think it is good is bigotry too.Why you need to insult someone to say he is wrong .So my dear mister think about that too.

    I wrote just one example how turrets work different from missiles.They all have good and bad things about them ,that is why we choose what is best for us.
    Cpt Gobla
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #1358 - 2012-09-19 14:26:39 UTC
    Beezon wrote:
    Will TE/TD affect cruise missiles/FoF cruises/torps too?


    That's the plan yeah.

    Which makes me tingle in private places when thinking about the Phoon Fleet Issue.

    5 torps, 3 ACs, 2 BCUs, 2 Gyros, 3 TEs, 5 Sentries. Hopefully able to apply that 1250 DPS consistently to BCs?

    With a 10% reduction to Explosion Radius Torps should have a radius of 350, capable of hitting shield-tanked BCs for full damage. Not to mention that you won't need Javelins if the range buff is any decent.

    Damn... I need to get my missile skills up!
    Vilnius Zar
    SDC Multi Ten
    #1359 - 2012-09-19 14:27:42 UTC
    Daniel Plain wrote:
    "i'm ok with this change so everyone should be!"
    this, my dear sir is called bigotry. and thank you for pointing out one of the differences between guns and missiles. you may be aware that there are other differences which are not at all as beneficial to the missiles as the one you named.

    after reading most of this topic, i have the following to say: everybody in there throwing around random range and dps numbers is an idiot. paper dps do not matter. neither does paper range, neither does EHP or fitting requirements. it's the combination of all these things and a lot lot more that makes a ship balanced, underpowered or overpowered. the fact of the matter is, most heavy missile ships are underpowered where as the drake and tengu are overpowerd in specific situations. nerfing heavy missiles is throwing the baby out with the bathwater and is NOT what needs to be done.

    as for the tracking idea: all i have to say is that it's beyond stupid and i am baffled that CCP would even come up with something like that.



    "I'm not ok with it and so no one should be".

    HMLs are OP, their range&applied dps is too good, on top of that the Tengu and Drake themselves are also too good. If they weren't the Tengu and drake wouldn't be used as much and in case of the Tengu you'd see people using non-missile fits. The problem is that other missiles are below par (not counting cruise) so one way of solving that (and the best way imo) is to "nerf" HML and then give people the option to fit modules to boost ALL missile performance, which is what's happening.

    Then have a look at the new proposed Caracal, range and rof bonus meaning all of a sudden HAMS become a more viable option now and when coupled with TE/TC they will really work quite well and HML will have the "if you want THAT much range then you'll have to accept low dps" just like other weapon systems.

    HAMs will be the new kid on the block and they'll do well. Deal with it.
    Lord Ryan
    True Xero
    #1360 - 2012-09-19 14:28:49 UTC
    Ynot Eyob wrote:
    Whatttttt ??!

    Canes are already a soft target compared with others, now even softer?!

    This make absolute no sence to me Evil

    What did expect?

    Do not assume anything above this line was typed by me. Nerf the Truth, it's inconvenient.