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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1261 - 2012-09-19 12:41:15 UTC
At this point I don't even want to continue arguing about the proposed changes, I will watch as the threadnought grows O_o

Everything important has been said within the first 20-30 pages

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
Kevin Xiore
Perkone
Caldari State
#1262 - 2012-09-19 12:45:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Kevin Xiore
Already adapted Drake fit to these changes, that's if they happen. Just stops Drakes from being ****** tanked with a Large weapon systems range.
Same with Tengus really, apart from you don't really have to drop tank, just utility and still get 90'ish range.

TD's are going to be Overpowered and the new must-have module.

EDIT: Nighthawk, Cerberus, Caracal are all ****** though, they need to change the ships, not the HML.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#1263 - 2012-09-19 12:46:23 UTC
Misanth wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

Those ships are getting their skulls cracked by the nerfhammer in order to make room for other ships to be flown. It really is necessary, and your response is a perfect example of how individual players never have a game's long term interests at heart. They only have their own short term interests in mind, even if it kills the game in the process.

-Liang


Not to mention that there's plenty of threads out there where players rightfully express concern about "stat creep" whenever CCP's response to imbalance is solely to buff a statistic. Either way, these kind of changes inevitably cause complaint regardless of merit.


Power Creep is indeed bad.
These generic missiles changes are, too.

All these changes got one thing in common: it streamlines missiles into more like the gunnery platforms. This has been mentioned by numerous posters here already, I shouldn't need to elaborate, but: a) HML changes are non-stop argued by comparison to gunnery dps stats, completely ignoring the innate differences between missiles and guns. b) TD/TE/TC affecting all weapon platforms.

It's a worrysome development, as it hints on CCP (and CSM, if you guys are involved in this) either 1) don't know enough about the innate differences between missiles/guns, 2) don't care and/or have a secret agenda to streamline this (if this is intentional, but not mentioned to players, this is virtually deceiving and no better than lies).

Just see how this thread pans out.
* HML nerf pro-posters compare a mid-range platform that has several innate counters guns don't (travel time - and you can outrun missiles too, defenders, smartbombs), with long-range gunnery that operate on completely different terms/mechanics
* HML nerf pro-posters tend to even post long-range gun ammo and compare it with optimal ammo type on HML, skewing numbers (and this even disregards the point I just did above, which is quite major)
* HML nerf pro-posters tend to ignore that there's alot more natural HML ships that are in a "bad" (not very much used, at all) shape, than there is those two (Drake, Tengu) ones that is. They also fail to present why the Drake and Tengu respectively is being so "overpowered", while, if they had done that, they could identify issues with those ships (and the role they are given) themselves, rather than the HML themselves.
* TD/TE/TC affecting all weapon types will have a major impact on the game, it's not something that should and could just be brushed aside as a side-note in a post about missile changes. This is a major game mechanic uphaul that could potentially change the whole shape of PvP as we know it. It deserves as separate thread, and should be broadcasted better to the public.

Yes, you are right that Power Creep is bad. The suggested game mechanic changes here, too, are. Not because the intention is bad (it isn't). Not because, like you suggest, that we somehow are against nerfing overall (not all of us are). But rather because CCP seems to either shoot from the hip and chance with potential game-overhauling changes, or have some hidden agenda is equally game upsetting.


+10 and you win lol

I'm in no way anti-change, things need to change, the game can be better, and as anyone could see if they read my posts, my 1st reaction was an "adapt" on (thinking about trading in my FOF tengu for TC/TC FOF Navy Ravens lol).

I'm not even against an HML nerf per se though I think a revamp of the drake and tengu FIRST to see how it pans out would be a better 1st move.

What I object to is CCP always using a hatchet where a scalpel would make more sense. It's simply imprudent to make multiple changes all at once to a complex system (inviting unintended consequences), and the fact that even after ALL the times DEVs have changed something just to go back and un-nerf it when just a little cautious conservatism in the beginning would have prevented the whole mess is, quite frankly exasperating.

How many precious Developer man hours have been lost to these cycles of over-nerf/de-nerf/re-nerf we've seen time and time again. If i were some kind of CCP manager, I'd be clamping down hard on all this lost time that's costing so much money. Do it right the 1st time or don't do it at all.
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1264 - 2012-09-19 12:46:35 UTC
HML nerf is far too heavy, good by only few good ships on caldari.

good job i can fly everything else or that would pee me off significantly

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#1265 - 2012-09-19 12:47:53 UTC
Muad 'dib wrote:
HML nerf is far too heavy, good by only few good ships on caldari.

good job i can fly everything else or that would pee me off significantly


I have corpmates who have like 15M sp in missiles, and all their spaceship command in caldari. They are 100% ******, since skills wont get reimbursed.
Recoil IV
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1266 - 2012-09-19 12:50:04 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Muad 'dib wrote:
HML nerf is far too heavy, good by only few good ships on caldari.

good job i can fly everything else or that would pee me off significantly


I have corpmates who have like 15M sp in missiles, and all their spaceship command in caldari. They are 100% ******, since skills wont get reimbursed.


its gonna be a riot anyway and people will unsubscribe in mass.just like it was when cq was introduced :D.
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1267 - 2012-09-19 12:54:26 UTC
You QQ now but once you try a Torp raven with tracking enhancers...
Satracz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1268 - 2012-09-19 12:54:41 UTC
what about drugs like optimal/falloff drugs.... did you give them a missile flighttime or speed ability ?
Callidus Dux
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1269 - 2012-09-19 12:57:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Callidus Dux
I do not bother because of the range and damage nerf. Whereat .. 20% less damage? Thats dumb! But what I hate is the fact that a dev without any knowledge of the game wants to disrupt missiles with TD's. Why? You can destroy missiles with Smartbombs and Defenders, which you can not do with gunnery!
If I think of my missions with defenders and lots of frigs with TD I can cancel my subsription as 100% Caldari! What I have done with one account this morning! This account will be the next. So stop this sh!t with TD's on missiles CCP or you will lose another account from a more than 4 years loyal paying customer!
Recoil IV
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1270 - 2012-09-19 12:58:54 UTC
Callidus Dux wrote:
I do not bother because of the range and damage nerf. But what I hate is the fact that a dev without any knowledge of the game wants to disrupt missiles with TD's. Why? You can destroy missiles with Smartbombs and Defenders, which you can not do with gunnery!
If I think of my missions with defenders and lots of frigs with TD I can cancel my subsription as 100% Caldari! What I have done with one account this morning! This account will be the next. So stop this sh!t with TD's on missiles CCP or you will lose another account from a more than 4 years loyal paying customer!


they wont loose only 1 account.the numbers will be quite significant.

+ 1
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1271 - 2012-09-19 12:59:02 UTC
Nalha Saldana wrote:
You QQ now but once you try a Torp raven with tracking enhancers...


And get vollied by every battleship in existence other than another raven and the scorp before your rage missiles hit...

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1272 - 2012-09-19 13:02:46 UTC
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
Nalha Saldana wrote:
You QQ now but once you try a Torp raven with tracking enhancers...


And get vollied by every battleship in existence other than another raven and the scorp before your rage missiles hit...


Well I meant for the carebears, I totally agree they suck for pvp.
Kmelx
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1273 - 2012-09-19 13:03:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Kmelx
Threadnaught now at 64 pages, 1272 posts before this one and only 38 "likes" of the original post says it all really.

The proposal needs some serious rethinking from CCP in general and Fozzie in particular.
Callidus Dux
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1274 - 2012-09-19 13:04:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Callidus Dux
Recoil IV wrote:
Callidus Dux wrote:
...
If I think of my missions with defenders and lots of frigs with TD I can cancel my subsription as 100% Caldari! What I have done with one account this morning! This account will be the next. So stop this sh!t with TD's on missiles CCP or you will lose another account from a more than 4 years loyal paying customer!


they wont loose only 1 account.the numbers will be quite significant.

+ 1

And I hope that all unsubs will be charged to CCP Fuzzy and his more than dumb ideas which leads to a dismissal of him! Evil
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1275 - 2012-09-19 13:07:50 UTC
Nalha Saldana wrote:
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
Nalha Saldana wrote:
You QQ now but once you try a Torp raven with tracking enhancers...


And get vollied by every battleship in existence other than another raven and the scorp before your rage missiles hit...


Well I meant for the carebears, I totally agree they suck for pvp.


Yes, however i really think having TDs for missiles just aren't needed, they don't need that form of disruption because of their nature. The only thing it fixes is their usage in blobs, and nothing else at all. TEs/TCs are just a cheap way of making it seem like it wont be that bad.

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#1276 - 2012-09-19 13:10:55 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
I have corpmates who have like 15M sp in missiles, and all their spaceship command in caldari. They are 100% ******, since skills wont get reimbursed.

What will they not be able to do after the nerf that they can do now?

.
Callidus Dux
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1277 - 2012-09-19 13:12:06 UTC
Terrorfrodo wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
I have corpmates who have like 15M sp in missiles, and all their spaceship command in caldari. They are 100% ******, since skills wont get reimbursed.

What will they not be able to do after the nerf that they can do now?

Flying missions against TD's AND Defender using NPC's? Roll
Soko99
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1278 - 2012-09-19 13:12:15 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Kmelx wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


Its the missiles causing the problems.


Which is nonsense, my two 100MNAB PVP Tengus (active and a passive tanked one) with lvl 5 sub skills and fours or fives in most missile skills, do about 400dps with faction launchers and BCUs, these are ships that I've spent billions of ISK on.

On there own Tengus are overpowered because of the tanks that you can achieve on them and the fact that the prop mod allows you to achieve high speeds without a corresponding sig radius increase, so you can run away from anyone you can't fight most of the time, not because of the dps output which is frankly underwhelming.

Lowering damage on these ships would take them to something like 320dps with faction fittings and decent skills, it makes one of the most popular ships in the game untenable in PVP and PVE.


You currently get 800+ DPS out of a ratting tengu and the standard tengufleet fit get over 500 DPS. What on earth are you doing to yours?


With 3 navy bcu and the full rack of t2 hmls I get nowhere near 800dps. Where on earth are you pulling these numbers from? Not everyone is running around with 3bil tengus.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1279 - 2012-09-19 13:13:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Emphyria wrote:
Don't forget to re-adjust TC/TE skill requirements into being more missile friendly if these ideas go through.



Weapon upgrades V and gunnery II for a TE

Trajectory analysis IV and gunnery IV for a TC

Seriously that is less then two weeks for both from scratch and you should have weapon upgrades already.

Kmelx wrote:
Threadnaught now at 64 pages, 1272 posts before this one and only 38 "likes" of the original post says it all really.

The proposal needs some serious rethinking from CCP in general and Fozzie in particular.


LOL you didn't think that messing with the most commonly used weapon system in the game was going to cause tears to flow?
Signal11th
#1280 - 2012-09-19 13:14:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Signal11th
Soko99 wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Kmelx wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


Its the missiles causing the problems.


Which is nonsense, my two 100MNAB PVP Tengus (active and a passive tanked one) with lvl 5 sub skills and fours or fives in most missile skills, do about 400dps with faction launchers and BCUs, these are ships that I've spent billions of ISK on.

On there own Tengus are overpowered because of the tanks that you can achieve on them and the fact that the prop mod allows you to achieve high speeds without a corresponding sig radius increase, so you can run away from anyone you can't fight most of the time, not because of the dps output which is frankly underwhelming.

Lowering damage on these ships would take them to something like 320dps with faction fittings and decent skills, it makes one of the most popular ships in the game untenable in PVP and PVE.


You currently get 800+ DPS out of a ratting tengu and the standard tengufleet fit get over 500 DPS. What on earth are you doing to yours?


With 3 navy bcu and the full rack of t2 hmls I get nowhere near 800dps. Where on earth are you pulling these numbers from? Not everyone is running around with 3bil tengus.



With mine I get 730ish dps but that is with near perfect skills and a 4x CN BCU's obvously not overloaded which takes it upto around 800dps but it did cost ALOT to get it to those specs. and I get around 620dps with a T2 fit.

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!