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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#1021 - 2012-09-19 05:37:37 UTC
As a player who has actively avoided the drake/cane FOTM ships as they are way to popular I'll now be training up my medium missile/projectile skills so when these changes come out I can fly stuff that people don't like anymore!!

FOTM is crap! don't be afraid to think outside the box and have fun!!

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
Errand Girl
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1022 - 2012-09-19 05:38:06 UTC
Speaking as a relatively new pilot who doesn't have 50 million+ SP and had the misfortune to choose Caldari... What am I supposed to fly now? HMLs already have fairly weak DPS and a 20% damage nerf means that my ship options for both PVE and PVP are totally gimped.

Drakes have too much tank, fine. HMLs have too much range, fine. But the damage nerf means all Caldari cruiser and battlecruiser hulls now pretty much suck. I realize that drake blobs are an issue in null sec, but seriously.... find a way to nerf drake blobs without totally hosing carebears and small gang PVPers.

As a young player, I have very little cross training. I'm all Caldari ship skills and all missiles. Now I'm looking at what? 6+ months of training before I can be good at flying another race's ships and using another races weapons? Maybe that's not a long time to a lot of vets around here (who are much more likely to be well cross-trained already), but to a 1 year player that's a very long time. I'll wait until the final changes are announced, but I would very seriously consider quitting EVE rather than throwing away the millions of SP I have in soon-to-be-worthless crap, plus basically starting over on my ship/gun progression.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#1023 - 2012-09-19 05:43:04 UTC
I always train for the FOTM (or years in this case). When setting up my training plan I never stop to ask myself of it's OP. I don't check the forums to see if there are multiple threads calling for a nerf or if the devs have hinted at a nerf for almost a year. Lastly, I certainly don't look at how long a trend has been going on and ask if I'm jumping on at the end of the bandwagon or the beginning. I just train for FOTM all the time. Shocked
terzslave
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1024 - 2012-09-19 05:50:06 UTC
Please do not nerf my HMLs. I want to play caldari, I really do but this is just making it impossible. No fleet is going to call for a drake or tengu after this. STAY AWAY FROM MY HMLS!!!!
knobber Jobbler
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1025 - 2012-09-19 05:50:10 UTC
Cut off the arm to fix a broken finger.

If you want to nerf drakes, nerf drakes. Don't penalise everything that uses heavy missiles.

The nerf to Tengu's just doesn't make sense; they're a little OP but then again, PVP'ing with 250 of them is a massive risk to any alliance fielding them. A whelped Tengu fleet is a fast way to bankruptcy. Risk vs Reward and all.

CCP - Go back to the drawing board and figure this out properly. Nerf ships, not the weapon systems and maybe stagger it a little rather than a whole sale killing off. It will only mean another rebalance in a years time...remember missiles were buffed a few years back.
JC Anderson
RED ROSE THORN
#1026 - 2012-09-19 05:50:56 UTC  |  Edited by: JC Anderson
Should be noted that the TD buff was on SISI ages ago, and in the last major patch CCP announced they would eventually be doing this, but that the version of it they had on SISI wasn't exactly what they wanted.

They said they would be coming back to it in the near future.

It caused a few threads of complaints then as well, but people for some reason just forgot about it.

These are screenshots I took in may on SISI.

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/2343/tdsisi.jpg

So we all knew SOMETHING would happen to make them effective against missiles, even if we didn't know how it would finally be implemented.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1027 - 2012-09-19 05:58:38 UTC
Heimdallofasgard wrote:
Due to the powergrid reduction of lasers as well, do you think the harbinger requires a pg nerf as well?

hey, i fly harbs all the time, and currently a T2 pvp fit worth anything more then a throwaway gank-boat n pvp will be pushing the lower single-digits in pg, if anything, lwering the pg reuirements for lasers would allow for more then 1 semi-usable fit for the harby compared to other BC's vast adaptability.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#1028 - 2012-09-19 06:05:07 UTC
So how to make medium LR weapons viable?

- nerf AC falloff slightly
- nerf TE falloff effect less slightly
- nerf Scorch range slightly
- buff warp disruptor range to 28km

?

.
Dorn Val
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1029 - 2012-09-19 06:06:09 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
For all those that are upset about the heavy missile nerf - we need one of the spreadsheet jockeys here to throw up a graph of DPS vs range for all four battlecruisers. Compare max skilled Drake with HML, navy missiles to a Ferox, Brutix, Hurricane, and harbinger (also with max skills) using the longest-range ammo. Ignore modules and rigs for now - we've seen both tank and gank varieties of all of the above.

Comparing raw DPS and range both before and after the changes, it becomes quite apparent why HML's are being brought in line with other weapons systems. They should provide consistent damage, certainly, but do not need to win both in maximum DPS within optimal AND a base range that exceeds the falloff of most of the long-range turrets.

It's hard to see with numbers on a page - but if you look at the damage curves, they tell the whole story.


Something like this?

http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/1209/lrc.gif

This is with max skills, no other modules besides the weapons and long range ammo.


Yes, exactly. Many thanks for providing this. As you can see in the graph, heavy missiles pretty much dominate this range class of weapons, with the only weapons system providing any advantage at all being railguns on a Ferox - and at a huge DPS hit to achieve this.

If you run the same graph after the changes Fozzie is proposing, you will see that there are now actual advantages to using other weapons besides HML at these ranges.


Sorry for the long quote. I agree with you Hans: People should have to make trade offs when a ship is fitted. HMLs are pretty much a no brainer at present, with very little HAM use except for the ships that have specific bonuses to them. Add to that the relatively easy training time for missiles (since missiles are not divided by ship size the way other weapons are) and you pretty much have an "HML I win" button. Time for a change...

I'm much more excited about the Hurricane getting a power grid nerf -tired of running into a Cane that does more damage, and can neut more of my cap, than an Ashimu....

Sandbox: An enclosed area filled with sand for children engaged in open-ended, unstructured, imaginative play. Also a place for cats to urinate and defecate...
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#1030 - 2012-09-19 06:06:19 UTC
I'm Down wrote:


Watching CCP dig it's own grave has been sad over the years.


Yea Yaay, you tell them about how they're game has slowly died over 9 years.

Sure bet they wish they'd listened to you more and redid this whole thing so they could a little more life out of her....


Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Smabs
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1031 - 2012-09-19 06:09:03 UTC
Changing heavy missiles seems like the wrong way to go.

The drake's problem is that it does everything well. It's got a good tank, is cheap, easy to train, does PVE pretty well, has good range and good utility with all the midslots. Before tier 3 battlecruisers it was clearly too strong as a mid to long range damage dealer. I'd argue that the tier 3 battlecruisers fixed a lot of these problems, but I guess some people don't agree.

The 100mn ab tengu is overpowered mostly because of the accelerated ejection bay and fuel catalyst in combination with huge amounts of fitting.

The best thing to do would be to pull a midslot off the drake or change the resist bonus, and to adjust two subsystems on the tengu.

I don't know why people feel the need to take a sledgehammer approach to a problem that really only involves 2 ships.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#1032 - 2012-09-19 06:12:41 UTC
Errand Girl wrote:
Speaking as a relatively new pilot who doesn't have 50 million+ SP and had the misfortune to choose Caldari... What am I supposed to fly now? HMLs already have fairly weak DPS and a 20% damage nerf means that my ship options for both PVE and PVP are totally gimped.

Drakes have too much tank, fine. HMLs have too much range, fine. But the damage nerf means all Caldari cruiser and battlecruiser hulls now pretty much suck. I realize that drake blobs are an issue in null sec, but seriously.... find a way to nerf drake blobs without totally hosing carebears and small gang PVPers.

As a young player, I have very little cross training. I'm all Caldari ship skills and all missiles. Now I'm looking at what? 6+ months of training before I can be good at flying another race's ships and using another races weapons? Maybe that's not a long time to a lot of vets around here (who are much more likely to be well cross-trained already), but to a 1 year player that's a very long time. I'll wait until the final changes are announced, but I would very seriously consider quitting EVE rather than throwing away the millions of SP I have in soon-to-be-worthless crap, plus basically starting over on my ship/gun progression.


Two of the three Caldari battlecruisers use hybrid weapons. Are they useless now?

And just to repeat what has been said numerous time, and has been long known to all but dreaktards- HMLs have high dps compared to other medium LR weapons, better range and damage application, which is why they get rebalanced to be in line with the others.

Drakes and Tengus are ubiquitously good in PVE, other three races have been very lacking in comparison. Still players of the other races have been doing PVE all this time.

Take it chill, you will be just fine.


.
Smabs
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1033 - 2012-09-19 06:15:33 UTC
Quote:
And just to repeat what has been said numerous time, and has been long known to all but dreaktards- HMLs have high dps compared to other medium LR weapons, better range and damage application, which is why they get rebalanced to be in line with the others.


To be honest medium rails and beams are in desperate need of a buff.
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#1034 - 2012-09-19 06:18:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Eugene Kerner
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Since we planning to reduce the powergrid needs of all medium artillery by 10% across the board, we are also planning to subtract 225 PG from the Hurricane, leaving it with a base powergrid of 1125.
The upshot is that fitting a full rack of 720s with a MWD and LSE and full mids and lows will require a RCUII and either an ACR or PG implant. Also fitting a standard shield autocane with neuts and LSE will require dropping a few guns down to 220mm.
The hurricane will likely receive significantly more changes when we get to battlecruisers in the balance pass, but this is designed as a compensation for the drop in Arty PG and to help alleviate the problem of Arty ships having so much free PG when they use autocannons.


This is very bad.
It makes a standard buffer Armor Hurricane fitting with 220mm Autocannons impossible as it is already a tight fit.

[Hurricane, Standard Buffer]

6x 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II (Barrage M)
2x Medium Energy Neutralizer II

Warp Disruptor II
Warp Scrambler II
Stasis Webifier II
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I

1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
2x Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
2x Gyrostabilizer II
Damage Control II

3x Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

With all V , which I do not have, it makes just about 417 dps without drones (which I do not use as they are pretty useless in lowsec) and has a accaptable tank to fight solo at a gate for a short (!) time.
Without the fitting advantage the Hurricane is pretty useless IMHO.
The new Powergrid would allow a 800mm Steel plate 2 if my estimates are correct. That is a LOT less tank.
I am not satisfied with these changes.

And concerning the missles....am about to finish Heavy missiles V....worthless...

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP
Ranamar
Nobody in Local
Deepwater Hooligans
#1035 - 2012-09-19 06:27:13 UTC
I have to agree with the people who feel like the 20% damage nerf was a little steep. That said, having seen the numbers that were posted, it's clear that they were a little over the top. I'm worried about damage at around 30km, though, where other LR weapons can bring higher-damage munitions into play. Is there any chance we can haggle you down to a 10-15% nerf? :p

Also, I'd like to echo the people asking whether the explosion radius or velocity component of the tracking mods will work on unguided weapons. I'd be all for it: it'd be an extra boost to some underused weapons.
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#1036 - 2012-09-19 06:28:28 UTC
Eugene Kerner wrote:
[
The new Powergrid would allow a 800mm Steel plate 2 if my estimates are correct. That is a LOT less tank.
I am not satisfied with these changes.

Why? You gonna have less overtank than before, it's a good thing. 800mm plate should be the biggest one available for cruisers/battlecruisers anyway.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Callidus Dux
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1037 - 2012-09-19 06:29:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Callidus Dux
I played more than 4 years eve online. Now you plan the second nerf to missiles!

-25% range
-20% damage
Make TDs affect Missiles?

Are you dumb or something? If I use missiles I do not have instant damage, every ******* can use defenders and smartbombs against my missiles. Additional to this you will bring this dumb ideas to nerf missiles even more?
With these changes you nerf missiles to death! Equal drawbacks compared to other weapon systems PLUS defenders and smartbombs to destroy my missiles?

One account canceled. The other will not get a renewal again! I have renewed my account on Fri, 31 Aug 2012 with a 6 month subscription but be sure I will make a petition and demand my money back! You announced these changes AFTER my renewal.
I do not wish to pay for a game I do not play anymore!

Before you bring such dumb ideas you should really solve problems! The fugging unified inventory!

also here
Bilaz
Duck and Finch
#1038 - 2012-09-19 06:32:24 UTC
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
Bilaz wrote:
both tengu and drake are massievly overtanked


drake- yes, it has a big tank

tengu - no...not at all. Look at the proteus. 200k tank with armor easily. Look at the Loki. 100k tank easily wth a single 1600 plate. Tengu has trouble getting 100k passive tank, and thats with only 2 mid slots left over for MWD and disruptor. Plus, the real issue lies with 100MN tengus, their tanks are not huge at all, its just their speed mitigating damage that makes it seem that way. Even moreso, to fly an 100mn tengu, you NEED to pimp fit it, and having an extremely expensive tengu should be OKAY to have it as a powerful ship. You don't see people constantly flying 1.5bil lokis and legions, like people do with tengus, but if you did, you could surely get 150k-200k armor tank on them as well, just as the tengu gets a good tank when combined with 100mn. However, its tank is not massively unbalanced. Just its damage projection, and reducing its range and a bit of its damage (hopefully not 20% however) is a reasonable way of fixing it up to be more balanced. However- nerfing it into oblivion will make 100mn tengus no longer useful, taking away a lovely style of playing that many people hold dear. (This isn't me whining, I personally don't fly 100mn tengus because I don't have the ISK to buy something too pimped.) Nerfing a form of warfare is really bad for the game. It takes away people's skills using a certain tactic. For example - some people have really practised with kiting others, and thus use it a lot in PvP because it is what they are good at. 100MN tengus require a lot of thinking to manuever properly, and taking out this playstyle really isn't a particularly good/fair idea.


Well if drake is overtanked and tengu can have even more ehp than drake, while (as you claim) being less tanked than other t3 - that means what? It means that all t3 are massievly overtanked. And all they deserve a good old kick.
As for 100k on tengu - take 5 launcher one and you would easily get ~110k and free slot for disruptor. And unlike drake tengu have superior range, speed etc, etc.
Proposed in this thread changes wont kill tengu as 100mn brawler or fleet ship - they would just even playing field a bit. Yes, before t3 are rebalanced we may see more t3 gangs with lokies, legions and maybe even proteuses. Becouse first two were boosted for some reason with new pg req. for guns even tho both were more than ok. So while i agree that nerfing tengu into oblivion is not a way to go - i dont see reason to panic or deny that even with new missiles tengu is still better than most caldari and many non-caldari ships to the point it could use some tweaking here and there.
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#1039 - 2012-09-19 06:36:36 UTC
Fon Revedhort wrote:
Eugene Kerner wrote:
[
The new Powergrid would allow a 800mm Steel plate 2 if my estimates are correct. That is a LOT less tank.
I am not satisfied with these changes.

Why? You gonna have less overtank than before, it's a good thing. 800mm plate should be the biggest one available for cruisers/battlecruisers anyway.


If you fight solo with agression at a gate in lowsec 1600mm is just about enough to finish a fight with another BC and if you win BARLEY get out near structure.

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#1040 - 2012-09-19 06:42:47 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
TDs are almost certain to be OP, but if we're making TEs and TCs affect missiles it's not exactly an unexpected move. Furthermore, suppose that you have unlimited fittings on the Beam Harbinger and Legion: how would you go about making them compete with the HML Drake and Tengu?

-Liang

I'm still scratching my head here on why a more mild nerf to HMLs coupled with a buff to damage of the other 3 long range types is for some reason completely out of the question.

I'm calling for a buff to three weapons types to actually make more playing styles viable, as opposed to "waaaah HMLs are OP, look at how bad these other weapons are in comparison!"

Not saying YOU are saying that, but if the goal is bringing them in line then shouldn't the underutilized weapons systems be buffed?


Heh, at least you don't deny that HML is a total outlier. I think that the best choice here really is to nerf HML because it's such an outlier that buffing other LR weapons would probably end up with justified complaints and a buff to close range weapons. That'd leave us in the exact same relative place as if they'd just nerfed HML to start with.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.