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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Trolly McForumalt
Doomheim
#961 - 2012-09-19 03:00:09 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Trolly McForumalt wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

If every ship that used HMLs were good, then yeah you could make that case. But the fact is that HMLs are only good on those ships because of a unique combination of factors specific to the ship and the setup.

On pretty much any other ship they have a status similar to the other long-ranged medium-sized weapons.


Hey I'm at work and don't have EFT handy. Can you please post the following DPS numbers:
- HML Caracal at 80km
- Beam Omen at 80km
- Rail Thorax at 80km
- Arty Rupture at 80km
- HML Caracal at 50km
- Beam Omen at 50km
- Rail Thorax at 50km
- Arty Rupture at 50km

I trust you enough to know you aren't going to whip together complete bullshit unrealistic fits. :)

-Liang


Sure. Hey let's also compare the HAM caracal with the blaster thorax, pulse omen and ac rupture.


Sure, let's compare at the edge of point range: 40km.

-Liang



I'll one up your arbitrary choice of distance and say let's compare at the edge of scram range.
Spanish Aquisition
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#962 - 2012-09-19 03:00:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Spanish Aquisition
Someone at CCP apparently had their poop pushed in by a drake recently

If you think the drake needs a DPS nerf you are bad at Eve and you should feel bad.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#963 - 2012-09-19 03:01:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Aglais wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Sig radius actually has the same weight as tracking in the chance to hit formula for turrets.
Ah, but turrets still have a 'stationary' target that has none of these things applied to it. Missiles always, to my knowledge, have to deal with signature radius.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Sig radius is always evaluated even if transversal is 0 (both targets stationary).
He means that sig_rad/explo_rad always counts as an upper limit for missile damage, whereas turrets stop caring about sig radius if transversal is zero. Yes, the sig radius is still fed into the formula, but since all you end up doing is multiplying it with zero, it doesn't matter what it is, nor its ratio to the gun's signature resolution.

Annubis Lorn wrote:
Instead of fixing what isnt broken...
…they should adjust HMLs, which are broken in a number of ways. And look! They are! \o/
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#964 - 2012-09-19 03:01:49 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

No, nobody uses them because they're ******* awful.


Yes, vs HML. Hence why drakes and tengu are used everywhere.
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#965 - 2012-09-19 03:02:49 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Aglais wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Sig radius actually has the same weight as tracking in the chance to hit formula for turrets.


Ah, but turrets still have a 'stationary' target that has none of these things applied to it. Missiles always, to my knowledge, have to deal with signature radius.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Sig radius is always evaluated even if transversal is 0 (both targets stationary).


That's exactly the point. Doesn't this mean that even if a target is stationary, if it's signature radius is a certain value, missiles are guaranteed to do some amount less damage than if the signature radius is arbitrarily large?

IE. An armor tanking Amarr ship with a small signature radius will naturally take less damage from a missile volley than a heavy shield tanking Caldari ship. And that's even before anything to do with velocity is thrown into the mix, which will take off even more damage potential.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#966 - 2012-09-19 03:03:36 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

No, nobody uses them because they're ******* awful.


Yes, vs HML. Hence why drakes and tengu are used everywhere.

No, they're just awful. Even if HMLs never existed people wouldn't be using beam omens, rail thoraxes, or arty ruptures any more than they do now.

The ONLY reason medium artillery gets used is because of its high alpha.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Annubis Lorn
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#967 - 2012-09-19 03:05:41 UTC
Tom Gerard wrote:
I think destroying Caldari in PVP is a good idea but you should add a 90% reduction in the effectiveness of ECM to go along with it, and perhaps a SP Refund so players can out of the sinking Caldari ship.





A very big +1 from me.
Bloutok
Perkone
Caldari State
#968 - 2012-09-19 03:06:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloutok
Could i get all my Caldari and the missiles skills back please ? So i can redistribute later.

Edit : While i am thinking about this. Could i get ALL my SP back. Train a new skill name "To be distributed later", it's a skill that never ends.

Wait a year or 2 or 3 until CCP as a stable version.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#969 - 2012-09-19 03:08:46 UTC
Trolly McForumalt wrote:
I'll one up your arbitrary choice of distance and say let's compare at the edge of scram range.


Sure, so now that we've compared HAM Caracal performance at the edge of scram and edge of disruptor range we'll see that HAMs are actually a mostly balanced weapon system. HML, OTOH, is not. Thus it is getting smacked with a nerf bat and HAMs aren't.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#970 - 2012-09-19 03:10:10 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

No, they're just awful. Even if HMLs never existed people wouldn't be using beam omens, rail thoraxes, or arty ruptures any more than they do now.

The ONLY reason medium artillery gets used is because of its high alpha.


When you face nothing but HML drakes and tengu it does become a problem. After the changes though rails, beams and arty are going to be used more because they are not out classed. The omen also suffered from massive fitting issues, Issues that should be going away come winter.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#971 - 2012-09-19 03:10:14 UTC
Aglais wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Aglais wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Sig radius actually has the same weight as tracking in the chance to hit formula for turrets.


Ah, but turrets still have a 'stationary' target that has none of these things applied to it. Missiles always, to my knowledge, have to deal with signature radius.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Sig radius is always evaluated even if transversal is 0 (both targets stationary).


That's exactly the point. Doesn't this mean that even if a target is stationary, if it's signature radius is a certain value, missiles are guaranteed to do some amount less damage than if the signature radius is arbitrarily large?

IE. An armor tanking Amarr ship with a small signature radius will naturally take less damage from a missile volley than a heavy shield tanking Caldari ship. And that's even before anything to do with velocity is thrown into the mix, which will take off even more damage potential.


This is generally true of turrets as well. Missiles and turrets are different, and now that HML is being smacked around some neither is obviously superior to the other.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#972 - 2012-09-19 03:11:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Bloutok wrote:
Could i get all my Caldari and the missiles skills back please ? So i can redistribute later.

Edit : While i am thinking about this. Could i get ALL my SP back. Train a new skill name "To be distributed later", it's a skill that never ends.

Wait a year or 2 or 3 until CCP as a stable version.


Hahaha, feel free to send me all of your Caldari SP. Caldari is going to be fine in PVP, even without OP HML. I probably have it all trained already anyway, but just on the off chance you've trained something I haven't. :)

-Liang

vvvvvv I'll take your Caldari SP too. Same odds of having anything extra trained, but maybe I'll get lucky!

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Annubis Lorn
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#973 - 2012-09-19 03:11:26 UTC
Bloutok wrote:
Could i get all my Caldari and the missiles skills back please ? So i can redistribute later.

Edit : While i am thinking about this. Could i get ALL my SP back. Train a new skill name "To be distributed later", it's a skill that never ends.

Wait a year or 2 or 3 until CCP as a stable version.




agreed
Cede Forster
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#974 - 2012-09-19 03:12:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Cede Forster
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Aglais wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Sig radius actually has the same weight as tracking in the chance to hit formula for turrets.


Ah, but turrets still have a 'stationary' target that has none of these things applied to it. Missiles always, to my knowledge, have to deal with signature radius.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Sig radius is always evaluated even if transversal is 0 (both targets stationary).


first of all transversal does not belongs there, it is an atrocity - i never understood why people would put that there, maybe because angular stuff is to complex? anyway

second, you got an F in math

ChanceToHit = 0.5 ^ ((((Angular velocity/ Turret Tracking)*(Turret Signature Resolution / Target Signature Radius))^2) + ((max(0, Range To Target - Turret Optimal Range))/Turret Falloff)^2)

if angular is 0
then angular / tracking = 0
and if you multiply 0 with "whatever you want" its still .... exactly 0 (most of the times at least)

if you then take 0 ^ 2 you still have .... 0

range part we ignore since it is not part of this argument

so we are left with 0,5 ^ 0 which is ... 1

and 1 means in EVE terms BOOM and DOOM and other bad stuff happens to you
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#975 - 2012-09-19 03:14:49 UTC
Well, I suppose the real kicker now is whether or not HAM Caracals are going to shine/be fittable, more than anything else. Kind of hoping that at the end of it all, the only real choice of what ship you PvP in isn't "which of these two/three battlecruisers do I choose".

Onto something a little more befitting of the topic, what of the Kestrel? I mean, I've not heard much good on standard missile performance, ever. With the increase in precision and damage, how's this going to go for a Kestrel that has improved fitting ability, potentially enough to fit four T2 standard launchers without having nothing else?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#976 - 2012-09-19 03:16:34 UTC
Aglais wrote:
Well, I suppose the real kicker now is whether or not HAM Caracals are going to shine/be fittable, more than anything else. Kind of hoping that at the end of it all, the only real choice of what ship you PvP in isn't "which of these two/three battlecruisers do I choose".

Onto something a little more befitting of the topic, what of the Kestrel? I mean, I've not heard much good on standard missile performance, ever. With the increase in precision and damage, how's this going to go for a Kestrel that has improved fitting ability, potentially enough to fit four T2 standard launchers without having nothing else?


I'm not 100% sold on the Kestrel, but I've scored dozens and dozens of kills with Light Missiles since the Condor came out. They're ******* boss, and the 10% damage boost is gonna make me giggle like a school girl.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Trolly McForumalt
Doomheim
#977 - 2012-09-19 03:16:46 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Trolly McForumalt wrote:
I'll one up your arbitrary choice of distance and say let's compare at the edge of scram range.


Sure, so now that we've compared HAM Caracal performance at the edge of scram and edge of disruptor range we'll see that HAMs are actually a mostly balanced weapon system. HML, OTOH, is not. Thus it is getting smacked with a nerf bat and HAMs aren't.

-Liang


Actually I think they're a little underpowered as they are. If they'd allow GMP and rigs to affect them that would be a decent compromise. I don't see that happening though so I guess we'll see. I would also love a precision version of the 'unguided' missiles but I don't want to be too greedy. Turrets don't get this treatment with their short range counterparts and it irks me just a bit.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#978 - 2012-09-19 03:18:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Tippia wrote:
He means that sig_rad/explo_rad always counts as an upper limit for missile damage, whereas turrets stop caring about sig radius if transversal is zero. Yes, the sig radius is still fed into the formula, but since all you end up doing is multiplying it with zero, it doesn't matter what it is, nor its ratio to the gun's signature resolution.

Thanks, yes I see that not in reviewing the formula. apparently I misremembered the way it applied transversal
Aglais wrote:

That's exactly the point. Doesn't this mean that even if a target is stationary, if it's signature radius is a certain value, missiles are guaranteed to do some amount less damage than if the signature radius is arbitrarily large?

IE. An armor tanking Amarr ship with a small signature radius will naturally take less damage from a missile volley than a heavy shield tanking Caldari ship. And that's even before anything to do with velocity is thrown into the mix, which will take off even more damage potential.

To an extent, 2 rig radii won't take differing amounts of damage if they are both above the explosion radius. This also should theoretically become easier with more ways to affect this attribute. And velocity as explained rarely has 0 angular affects and as such also affects turrets.
Cede Forster wrote:

first of all transversal does not belongs there, it is an atrocity - i never understood why people would put that there, maybe because angular stuff is to complex? anyway

second, you got an F in math

Did quite well in math, it's apparently memory that failed me. I though there was another part to that that would have made it a non 0 result. Apparently I was wrong as I look again. As far as the term, I can it what others call it so that even as we all call it the wrong thing we know what each other is talking about.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#979 - 2012-09-19 03:19:47 UTC
Trolly McForumalt wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Trolly McForumalt wrote:
I'll one up your arbitrary choice of distance and say let's compare at the edge of scram range.


Sure, so now that we've compared HAM Caracal performance at the edge of scram and edge of disruptor range we'll see that HAMs are actually a mostly balanced weapon system. HML, OTOH, is not. Thus it is getting smacked with a nerf bat and HAMs aren't.

-Liang


Actually I think they're a little underpowered as they are. If they'd allow GMP and rigs to affect them that would be a decent compromise. I don't see that happening though so I guess we'll see. I would also love a precision version of the 'unguided' missiles but I don't want to be too greedy. Turrets don't get this treatment with their short range counterparts and it irks me just a bit.


I... don't know. Rigs I can see for sure, especially in light of the TE/TC change. GMP though... I dunno. I'd be interested in play testing either way.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Ghazu
#980 - 2012-09-19 03:20:31 UTC
Bloutok wrote:
Could i get all my Caldari and the missiles skills back please ? So i can redistribute later.

Edit : While i am thinking about this. Could i get ALL my SP back. Train a new skill name "To be distributed later", it's a skill that never ends.

Wait a year or 2 or 3 until CCP as a stable version.


I'd like that.

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984