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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Juniorama
State War Academy
Caldari State
#901 - 2012-09-19 01:45:36 UTC
I would prefer to see missiles have less dps and a greater chance of applying that dps.

Also no chance to apply tracking/range mods and EWAR.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#902 - 2012-09-19 01:46:02 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

Except that as has also been stated repeatedly, missiles don't behave in the same way as turrets do and so you can't make direct comparisons between them, at least not as simply as you're doing.


All weapons work differently, they all have their own drawbacks and plus points. This does not mean that HML should out class everything else in the way they do. HML are being brough back in line. You might dread losing your easy mode but I am looking forwards to the new options that will now be viable.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#903 - 2012-09-19 01:49:20 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

If every ship that used HMLs were good, then yeah you could make that case. But the fact is that HMLs are only good on those ships because of a unique combination of factors specific to the ship and the setup.

On pretty much any other ship they have a status similar to the other long-ranged medium-sized weapons.


Hey I'm at work and don't have EFT handy. Can you please post the following DPS numbers:
- HML Caracal at 80km
- Beam Omen at 80km
- Rail Thorax at 80km
- Arty Rupture at 80km
- HML Caracal at 50km
- Beam Omen at 50km
- Rail Thorax at 50km
- Arty Rupture at 50km

I trust you enough to know you aren't going to whip together complete bullshit unrealistic fits. :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#904 - 2012-09-19 01:50:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Il Feytid
Do not forget that missile boats are able to specifically pick the damage type they do. As in 100% of a damage type. Outside of drones, no other weapon system has that luxury.
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#905 - 2012-09-19 01:50:29 UTC
Seranova Farreach wrote:
Misanth wrote:
Daneel Trevize wrote:
D3vastator wrote:
Aaron Greil wrote:
Please post the fits where an ishkur out dps and out tanks a tengu.

Then we'll laugh at how failfit your tengu must be to be outclassed by an assault frig.

Level 4s are meant to require battleships. Tengus were never supposed to replace BSs. Fly a CNR like everyone else. This is as much a buff to torps as it is a nerf to HMLs. Now torp navy scorps will rock.


Ah, my bad. IshTAR :P
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1938285#post1938285

Seriously, your more expensive tech3 is meant to be a stepping stone to the superior specialised t2 ship for the particular role. Because you can get isk faster than SP. Tengus are brokenly overpowered, they need nerfs.


Yes and no. You're right about the stepping stone, and t2 ship role, and you're right that the Tengu performs very (probably too) well. But you're wrong that the Tengu needed the nerf. Tengu in non-dps subsystem is fine and very much in-line with other cruiser hulls. So the issue is not with the Tengu itself, but rather with a particular subsystem (especially combined with the engineering one that gives +1 launcher).

The funky thing is that that particular Tengu configuration, still have a decent balance between the +kinetic bonus and the other damage types. The bonuses applies goes in-line with Caldari in general too. There's two possible solutions to tweak this to make it more reasonable: either a) tweak the RoF bonus, or b) tweak the raw damage bonus itself (preferably keep the separated +kin bonus, to suit the Caldari damage bonus that goes on other ships too).

Tengu is fine. Its damage subsystem is not.
Drake is fine. In blobs they die too slow.
Poems are cool. I can't write em.

Cool


what about proteus? thats the most OP of em all.. up to 850k EHP.. 1300 dps drones! and so on.. (if my eft was correct)


I own one Proteus, one Legion, three? Loki and about ten Tengus. Oops

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#906 - 2012-09-19 01:52:23 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

Except that as has also been stated repeatedly, missiles don't behave in the same way as turrets do and so you can't make direct comparisons between them, at least not as simply as you're doing.


All weapons work differently, they all have their own drawbacks and plus points. This does not mean that HML should out class everything else in the way they do. HML are being brough back in line. You might dread losing your easy mode but I am looking forwards to the new options that will now be viable.

Nerfing the range would have been fine. A 5%-10% damage nerf would have been fine too. 20% is simply too much.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#907 - 2012-09-19 01:52:40 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


All weapons work differently, they all have their own drawbacks and plus points. This does not mean that HML should out class everything else in the way they do. HML are being brough back in line. You might dread losing your easy mode but I am looking forwards to the new options that will now be viable.


I'm sorry, but when does "brought back in line" mean "now on par damagewise with railguns in addition to having other factors that severely cripple their damage output"? You do realize also that this is going to be their raw DPS that's breaking through the floor here, not counting anything lost because a target is moving. And cruisers very rarely fight stationary targets.

"Brought back in line" would mean keeping some semblance of being able to do damage, but losing a large chunk of range. Not what's happening here. And if they absolutely HAVE to lose damage, then between five and ten percent, not twenty.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#908 - 2012-09-19 01:54:24 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
Liang Nuren wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

If every ship that used HMLs were good, then yeah you could make that case. But the fact is that HMLs are only good on those ships because of a unique combination of factors specific to the ship and the setup.

On pretty much any other ship they have a status similar to the other long-ranged medium-sized weapons.


Hey I'm at work and don't have EFT handy. Can you please post the following DPS numbers:
- HML Caracal at 80km
- Beam Omen at 80km
- Rail Thorax at 80km
- Arty Rupture at 80km
- HML Caracal at 50km
- Beam Omen at 50km
- Rail Thorax at 50km
- Arty Rupture at 50km

I trust you enough to know you aren't going to whip together complete bullshit unrealistic fits. :)

-Liang


oh yeah that's right you live in the prison colony... its 10 pm where i am at...

poor poor moa... no one cares about you...

that is untill tomorrow when we find out that your optimal range bonus is gone and replaced with a hybrid damage bonus Twisted and boat loads more pg!

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Isaiah Harms
State War Academy
Caldari State
#909 - 2012-09-19 01:55:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Isaiah Harms
Tragedy wrote:
Awesome. HMLs need a nerf in a bad way. They do too much damage at too far of a range. I hope tracking comps wont be able to put them right back to where they were in range with just 1 comp though. NERF THEM MOAR!!!


My dear friend.. regardless of how far you can HIT someone you still need to warp disrupt them to do ANYTHING!

Remind me to whine about an Autocannon Tornado hitting very nicely at 70km.

Seriously.. this forum is populated by nut jobs who don't actually play the game. Why does CCP listen to them?
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#910 - 2012-09-19 01:55:43 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Hey I'm at work and don't have EFT handy. Can you please post the following DPS numbers:
- HML Caracal at 80km
- Beam Omen at 80km
- Rail Thorax at 80km
- Arty Rupture at 80km
- HML Caracal at 50km
- Beam Omen at 50km
- Rail Thorax at 50km
- Arty Rupture at 50km
Why do we never worry about what is supposed to keep the target in place at 80km and 50km?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#911 - 2012-09-19 01:56:17 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

If every ship that used HMLs were good, then yeah you could make that case. But the fact is that HMLs are only good on those ships because of a unique combination of factors specific to the ship and the setup.

On pretty much any other ship they have a status similar to the other long-ranged medium-sized weapons.


Hey I'm at work and don't have EFT handy. Can you please post the following DPS numbers:
- HML Caracal at 80km
- Beam Omen at 80km
- Rail Thorax at 80km
- Arty Rupture at 80km
- HML Caracal at 50km
- Beam Omen at 50km
- Rail Thorax at 50km
- Arty Rupture at 50km

I trust you enough to know you aren't going to whip together complete bullshit unrealistic fits. :)

-Liang

You're only lending support to my point. Nobody is going to use any of those except for the HML Caracal. Why nerf the one thing people use, instead of boosting something that serves virtually no purpose?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#912 - 2012-09-19 01:57:45 UTC
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Hey I'm at work and don't have EFT handy. Can you please post the following DPS numbers:
- HML Caracal at 80km
- Beam Omen at 80km
- Rail Thorax at 80km
- Arty Rupture at 80km
- HML Caracal at 50km
- Beam Omen at 50km
- Rail Thorax at 50km
- Arty Rupture at 50km
Why do we never worry about what is supposed to keep the target in place at 80km and 50km?


lechasis and rapier?

plus those purdy bubles?

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#913 - 2012-09-19 02:04:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Misanth wrote:
Most seems to agree that, if anything, the "issue" with HML is not HML itself. It's the Drake (in blobs, not solo or smallscale or PvE), or the Tengu (when using the accelerated dps subsystem)

Actually I've seem quite the opposite expressed by many here, stating that the ships were overpowered due to the advantages on HML's over turrets of the same size.

If every ship that used HMLs were good, then yeah you could make that case. But the fact is that HMLs are only good on those ships because of a unique combination of factors specific to the ship and the setup.

On pretty much any other ship they have a status similar to the other long-ranged medium-sized weapons.

Looking at those platforms:
Caracal - Being buffed as it was on the loosing end of the tier system while being the missile platform. Before it was inferior by design.
Cerberus/nighthawk - Various acknowledged issues that will be fleshed out, though I agree with a change like this it can't happen soon enough.

But the core issue making this a difficult balance is the inflexibility of the weapon. Your capacity to trade damage for range or the reverse is largely nonexistent save fitting a different type of launcher (and the gains were miniscule in most scenarios comparison to the losses) and as such means that some system has to lose out on one end of the spectrum. In this case HML was chosen to lose in the mid rage to long range and retain a slight advantage at max range. Too much? Probably. I'll grant that. Here's hoping those numbers were low-balling and looking to have an increase over testing to get to proper levels.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#914 - 2012-09-19 02:04:21 UTC
Aglais wrote:


I'm sorry, but when does "brought back in line" mean "now on par damagewise with railguns in addition to having other factors that severely cripple their damage output"? You do realize also that this is going to be their raw DPS that's breaking through the floor here, not counting anything lost because a target is moving. And cruisers very rarely fight stationary targets.

"Brought back in line" would mean keeping some semblance of being able to do damage, but losing a large chunk of range. Not what's happening here. And if they absolutely HAVE to lose damage, then between five and ten percent, not twenty.


Because turrets arn't impacted by moving targets at allRoll
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#915 - 2012-09-19 02:06:28 UTC
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Why do we never worry about what is supposed to keep the target in place at 80km and 50km?


Arazu.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#916 - 2012-09-19 02:07:30 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Aglais wrote:


I'm sorry, but when does "brought back in line" mean "now on par damagewise with railguns in addition to having other factors that severely cripple their damage output"? You do realize also that this is going to be their raw DPS that's breaking through the floor here, not counting anything lost because a target is moving. And cruisers very rarely fight stationary targets.

"Brought back in line" would mean keeping some semblance of being able to do damage, but losing a large chunk of range. Not what's happening here. And if they absolutely HAVE to lose damage, then between five and ten percent, not twenty.


Because turrets arn't impacted by moving targets at allRoll

Well keep in mind you also have to take into account the relative velocity. Turret ships can mitigate the effect of the target's velocity by minimizing absolute velocity (you do know how vector addition and subtraction works, I'm assuming). Missile ships can't.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Isaiah Harms
State War Academy
Caldari State
#917 - 2012-09-19 02:08:33 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:


We're going to be changing the hurricane at the same time


Oh yeah you're changing it. What you didn't tell everyone is the Hurricane with a typical 1600mm plate can only fit 5 180mm
autocannons. P.S. That's with a 5% powergrid implant.

Kind of pathetic. Oh... and very sneaky of you CCP. What's the deal? Don't like the Whelp Cane? Have to save your precious supercapital friends at the demise of every other player in-game?

Can we just eliminate Minmatar and Caldari from the game. I'd like those skillpoints back.

TY.
Isaiah Harms
State War Academy
Caldari State
#918 - 2012-09-19 02:12:29 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Do not forget that missile boats are able to specifically pick the damage type they do. Outside of drones, no other weapon system has that luxury.



Uh... Ever looked at Projectile ammo? Guess not. Go do it now.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#919 - 2012-09-19 02:12:48 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

Well keep in mind you also have to take into account the relative velocity. Turret ships can mitigate the effect of the target's velocity by minimizing absolute velocity (you do know how vector addition and subtraction works, I'm assuming). Missile ships can't.


Turret ships have to deal with tracking. Sounds to me like turret and missile ships will have an equal footing after these changes.
Schenz
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#920 - 2012-09-19 02:13:16 UTC
As a week old Eve newbie I put together a skill plan to get into a Drake and then later a Tengu using Heavy Missiles. All my research has been into how to train for these ships in PvE and PvP. If i continue with this skill plan am I going to be gimped come the Winter update having no skills for other weapon types? Should I give up now and choose something else? I was just getting my bearings and now I feel lost again. lol.