These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#6161 - 2012-11-22 14:25:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
OT Smithers wrote:


When comparing the Raven to its opponents we see that it is typically slower, with less tank, less versatility, fewer drones, and lower (and delayed) DPS. It is difficult or impossible to fit with the modules that experience has shown to be necessary for a battleship. Its ONLY compensating advantage is the ability to hit and do moderate damage to large slow targets at range slightly better than other battleships -- in every other category it fails spectacularly.



Bouh will probably jump on this because a good chunk of it is wrong or inconsequential, so I'll pre-empt him.

I don't think mobility is important on a fleet BS - c.f. Abaddon and Rokh, both of which are less mobile than the Raven(?). And it's got 75 m drone bay, same as many others - and more than the Rokh, but drone bay size isn't particularly important in fleet either. Mobility and drones are important in solo/small-gang environments, but BS are largely obsolete there anyway, so I'm not sure it really matters. Fitting a Cruise Raven is trivial, and it's more flexible than most other options - more medslots for ewar, utility highs, full damage-type selection, flexibility of range.

But ultimately, none of this really matters, as the dominant factors are tank (EHP and RR), DPS and DPS application and projection. And as you rightly state, the Cruise Raven has serious deficiencies in the combination of those figures which precludes it from being a serious fleet option.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#6162 - 2012-11-22 15:22:20 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
But ultimately, none of this really matters, as the dominant factors are tank (EHP and RR), DPS and DPS application and projection. And as you rightly state, the Cruise Raven has serious deficiencies in the combination of those figures which precludes it from being a serious fleet option.

Only deficiency of the Raven is tank, which is due to the lack of a resist bonus and the fact it is a tier 2 BS. It does have a good dps and damage projection though, the only problem being smaller targets.

Again, I think it's not a bad fleet ship, it's only that the Tengu obsolete it. This and the resist bonus synergizing with logi.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6163 - 2012-11-22 15:33:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
EatThis wrote:
MISSILES !!!

Question about in lineing the missiles with other turrets in the game !!!

Turret Roles:
CLOSE range guns (Blasters, Pulse, Autocannons) PWG usage is smaller compared to LONG range guns (Railgun, Beam, Artilery).

Missile Roles:
Except Rockets/Light is the opposite !!!

WHY trying to in line missiles if the basic of missiles is different ???
That means you need to sacrifice your tank to bo able to fit close range missiles FAIL.

I agree that missiles need to change but do it right if you trying to inline them with other guns !!!


Drake with HAML, MWD, point and web: 68,5k* EHP
* - you need to use Medium Ancillary Current Router I rig if you don't have money to get 3% PG implant.

Drake with HML, MWD, point and web: 68,5k* EHP
* - you need to use Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I rig if you don't have money to get 3% CPU implant.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#6164 - 2012-11-22 17:11:40 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
But ultimately, none of this really matters, as the dominant factors are tank (EHP and RR), DPS and DPS application and projection. And as you rightly state, the Cruise Raven has serious deficiencies in the combination of those figures which precludes it from being a serious fleet option.

Only deficiency of the Raven is tank, which is due to the lack of a resist bonus and the fact it is a tier 2 BS. It does have a good dps and damage projection though, the only problem being smaller targets.

Again, I think it's not a bad fleet ship, it's only that the Tengu obsolete it..


This statement suggests that if the Tengu was removed from the game, Cruise Raven fleets would appear. This is absurd. The cruise Raven's clear inferiority to Abaddons and Rokhs makes it a bad fleet ship. You can't just imagine those other ships away.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#6165 - 2012-11-22 17:16:39 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:


Drake with HAML, MWD, point and web: 68,5k* EHP
* - you need to use Medium Ancillary Current Router I rig if you don't have money to get 3% PG implant.


You mean 83k EHP, and you won't need a PG implant after the HAML PG change.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6166 - 2012-11-22 17:37:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Gypsio III wrote:
You mean 83k EHP, and you won't need a PG implant after the HAML PG change.


If we talk about named/T2 mods only, no.

[Drake, Draek]

Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
J5 Prototype Warp Disruptor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II
[Empty High slot]

Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


Hobgoblin II x5

And yet again this thread is turning into fitting advice thread...
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#6167 - 2012-11-22 22:07:58 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
OT Smithers wrote:


When comparing the Raven to its opponents we see that it is typically slower, with less tank, less versatility, fewer drones, and lower (and delayed) DPS. It is difficult or impossible to fit with the modules that experience has shown to be necessary for a battleship. Its ONLY compensating advantage is the ability to hit and do moderate damage to large slow targets at range slightly better than other battleships -- in every other category it fails spectacularly.



Bouh will probably jump on this because a good chunk of it is wrong or inconsequential, so I'll pre-empt him.

I don't think mobility is important on a fleet BS - c.f. Abaddon and Rokh, both of which are less mobile than the Raven(?). And it's got 75 m drone bay, same as many others - and more than the Rokh, but drone bay size isn't particularly important in fleet either. Mobility and drones are important in solo/small-gang environments, but BS are largely obsolete there anyway, so I'm not sure it really matters. Fitting a Cruise Raven is trivial, and it's more flexible than most other options - more medslots for ewar, utility highs, full damage-type selection, flexibility of range.

But ultimately, none of this really matters, as the dominant factors are tank (EHP and RR), DPS and DPS application and projection. And as you rightly state, the Cruise Raven has serious deficiencies in the combination of those figures which precludes it from being a serious fleet option.


Mobility might or might not be important in a BS fleet. This would depend upon tactics. Whether or not your fleet or gang (or even you as an individual) exploited the advantages you have is irrelevant, you COULD have done so. The potential was there.

What the Raven can do is project moderate and delayed damage a great distance, in every other measure it falls short of the other BSs in the game.
Ubat Batuk
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#6168 - 2012-11-22 23:04:15 UTC
The missiles nerf is totally ******. A drake already has such a low DPS! balancing of what? little DPS with LESSER DPS? Have you tried a nighthawk for example? train forever and a damn low DPS. You are just making it a nightmare for people doing missions. How intelligent you people are with all these ridiculous nerfs? just focus your time expanding the game with new features instead of getting people pissed. Of course it's a lot easier to set a configuration parameter than develop and test new stuff! Do you not understand that people get pissed and stop playing? You are disenfranchising people in favour of some groups... You are just making Caldari ships not viable. Or perhaps every ship should cost 1-3b to be effective. Remember that PLEX greed is going to bite back at you badly...

I demand all my accounts missiles skills to be refunded.

It's becoming just like Dust beta, at first it was incredibly fun and later it became a nightmare to play due all nerfs and I got so pissed that I had to stop playing.
Meolyne
Perkone
Caldari State
#6169 - 2012-11-23 00:12:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Meolyne
Missile Nerf? Not for everybody !

I was hopeless about Raven being good one day, but it's seems it's happenning finally.

Just tested a quite expensive CNR on Buck. But as long as it require way less Skill Points... maybe should be looked closer.

What i saw was :
- Cruise Fury kick some big asses with or without a TP. (BS / BC at full applied damage)
- Cruise Precision, FINALLY useful, Full or nearly full damage applied on Frigates with 1 TP (depending their speed) where Cruise standard was not optimal and Heavy missile not fittable.

Raven Navy Issue : (CNR)
-Cruise launcher II x7
-Federation navy 425mm just for fancy purposes.

-Meta 7+ X-L Shield Booster
-Shield Boost Amp II (or 100 AB II )
-Heavy Cap booster II
-PWNAGE (TP)
-Invul II and or meta 4. x2

-Caldari BCS *4
-Damage control II

-Rigor catalyst II
-Flare Catalyst II
-Defense capacitor safeguard II

Drones T2

Implant +5%
Result : with skill not all to 5, you've got about 960-1040 dps with fury (drones+gun) on most ships. High repair output during 8mn uninterrupted (900+ehp/4s).
You can also reduce the dps to increase surivability.

TLDR
Delayed damage greatly reduced (for a 30km target, the damage apply when the missile ejects) (1/4 - 1/2 of cycle)
You still can learn to play missiles and switch target before a volley waste.
Precision Cruise come closer to Heavy fury
Fury Cruise hits hard on targets over 300m sig radius.
Cruise still outperform Heavy in damage raw numbers.
Kill first or Die fit possibility


Obviously it's not a pvp fit. not sure it can be a pvp ship too.
OldWolf69
EVE-RO
Goonswarm Federation
#6170 - 2012-11-23 02:23:14 UTC  |  Edited by: OldWolf69
Obviously ppl don't understand what's about. It's not about the one missile's nerf, of about the buff on the other. Is about the fact they just sell us changed rules as new content. I don't care about the maths or the fits or other such things. Expansions are "Nerf"-pansions. NEVER ask a nerd to develop a complicated thing. He will try to standardise all untill is all broken.Big smile
Faora Zod
Don't mess with this DoJo
#6171 - 2012-11-23 04:19:26 UTC
[quote=CCP Fozzie]

Wait, are these changes supposed to increase or decrease our profits? You lost me there and I want to make sure I'm part of the correct shadowy conspiracy.
In all seriousness we don't balance the game to trick people into losing ships and replacing them with plex, we balance the game to create an interesting and fun game environment for everyone. It turns out the best way to convince people to pay some of their hard earned money for your game is to make a good game! Who would have guessed?!]


Just because you are denying the conspiracy does not mean there is not one, that is how shadow conspiracies work! CCP is a business, and the whole idea of a business is to make a profit, otherwise it a charity/nonprofit org. So yeah Fozzie you guys are trying to get us to spend money.

You would think that instead of trying to keep our interest in playing eve you would actually give us something new and interest in the game, rather than change what we already have and call it balancing.

Instead of wasting your time "balancing" the missile system, why don't you guys get to work on making us faction Battlecruiers? Who wouldn't want a CN Farox (a CN Drake would be even more awesome but useless with these "balanced" Missiles), or a Angel Cyclone, or Sansha Harbinger. or Come up with NEW skills to help the raging players who whine about the Drake/Tengu's to keep range.

Want to solve the ability of tengus and Drakes to keep range? slow them down! Fix the 3 different sized AB and MWD to where they can only fit on the ships they are intended for, 1mn on frigs and destroyers, 10mn on cruisers and Bcs, and 100 mn's on Battleships and bigger. makes alot more since than changing the HML since it would work on all the races ships.

There are other and better ways to keep us interested than "balancing" the ships we already have.
Faora Zod
Don't mess with this DoJo
#6172 - 2012-11-23 04:51:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Faora Zod
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Faora Zod wrote:
What amazes me about these changes is that

1. after trying them out on the test server they are crap, no more buying GTCs to turn into plexes to put up for sale to replace lost drakes and tengu,. Yeah for lost revenue for CCP!
2. One of the best things about the Drake is how quickly new players can train to use one, it is a simple good ship to use and actually helps draw new people into the game, before they have to train into something more complicated to fly. I see more and more people being turned off from Eve, less new players means more lost revenue!

I am sure that if these changes go into effect that I will not be the only one to let my accounts lapse and just move on to another game.

Balancing the game? Really? Seems more like an idea to weaken two of the best ships in the game hoping people will buy more GTCs to convert to salable plexes to replace the loses.

There is a saying, if it is not broken don't fix it.

Once everyone realizes all the changes that CCP is making to this game is just another means to get us to spend more money on it buying GTCs they are screwed, No more extra money for them.

Buy the GTC! it is worth 2 months game time, a 30 dollar value for 35 dollars! Oh but you can split it into single months and sale them in game for ISK! oh wait or you can convert it in to another form of currency and buy pants! Lost a billion isk ship? That's okay buy a GTC and sale the plexes!

It is getting ridicules CCP, quit screwing **** up


Hahaha, this is so funny. Some people don't have any idea what they are talking about.
- Balancing the game? Really? Seems more like an idea to weaken two of the best ships in the game hoping people will buy more GTCs to convert to salable plexes to replace the loses.

Well sh't bro, guess what balancing is! Not having "the two best ships" is per definition balance.

-There is a saying, if it is not broken don't fix it.

Yes there is. And where there are two ships that dominate the game, they are clearly broken in one form or another.


Nice try tho, threatening CCP with decrease in profit. How do you get all this inside info from CCP? /sarcasm



Weird it did not post my responce to your comment so allow me to edit and retort.

It is funny how people do not really know what they are talking about sometimes and obvious to me you do not understand the point i was trying to make.

The way i play Eve probably differs from how you play Eve, i see each and every ship as a tool to accomplish a task. To me the Drake and Tengu's "job" is making me money through PVE by doing Plexes, and running missions. I beleive the Drake to be the best at this task because of how quickly a NEW PLAYER can get into one. It is a SIMPLE, FUN,INTERESTING and Afforable ship to use as A NEW PLAYER. Yes it does have an advantage the other Battlecruiser do not, it is a missile boat you just click and shoot. I do not like the Drake for PVP, it doesn't have a very good ROF and in my mind every second counts in PVP, so i use a cane, myrm, or binger. Besides sitting back about 60k plus really isn't that thrilling you got to go get into the **** if you know what i mean.

I don't have any inside information on CCP but I understand and grasp that CCP is a business, and no matter what they say, their goal is to make a profit plan and simple. I beleive these so called "balancing" changes will ultimately have an effect on the customer base that generates their revenue. As for GTCs and in game plexes sales, you would have to be an idiot not to notice the impact they cause on the market or have mommy and daddy's credit card and are funding yourself with ISK.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6173 - 2012-11-23 05:25:50 UTC
Ubat Batuk wrote:
The missiles nerf is totally ******. A drake already has such a low DPS! balancing of what? little DPS with LESSER DPS? Have you tried a nighthawk for example? train forever and a damn low DPS. You are just making it a nightmare for people doing missions. How intelligent you people are with all these ridiculous nerfs? just focus your time expanding the game with new features instead of getting people pissed. Of course it's a lot easier to set a configuration parameter than develop and test new stuff! Do you not understand that people get pissed and stop playing? You are disenfranchising people in favour of some groups... You are just making Caldari ships not viable. Or perhaps every ship should cost 1-3b to be effective. Remember that PLEX greed is going to bite back at you badly...

I demand all my accounts missiles skills to be refunded.

It's becoming just like Dust beta, at first it was incredibly fun and later it became a nightmare to play due all nerfs and I got so pissed that I had to stop playing.


Do you realize that Nighthawk is "broken"?
Do you know what "power creep" means?

Since it seems to be quite difficult for some...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_creep
Sigras
Conglomo
#6174 - 2012-11-23 07:58:38 UTC
Faora Zod wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


Wait, are these changes supposed to increase or decrease our profits? You lost me there and I want to make sure I'm part of the correct shadowy conspiracy.
In all seriousness we don't balance the game to trick people into losing ships and replacing them with plex, we balance the game to create an interesting and fun game environment for everyone. It turns out the best way to convince people to pay some of their hard earned money for your game is to make a good game! Who would have guessed?!



Just because you are denying the conspiracy does not mean there is not one, that is how shadow conspiracies work! CCP is a business, and the whole idea of a business is to make a profit, otherwise it a charity/nonprofit org. So yeah Fozzie you guys are trying to get us to spend money.

You would think that instead of trying to keep our interest in playing eve you would actually give us something new and interest in the game, rather than change what we already have and call it balancing.

Instead of wasting your time "balancing" the missile system, why don't you guys get to work on making us faction Battlecruiers? Who wouldn't want a CN Farox (a CN Drake would be even more awesome but useless with these "balanced" Missiles), or a Angel Cyclone, or Sansha Harbinger. or Come up with NEW skills to help the raging players who whine about the Drake/Tengu's to keep range.

Want to solve the ability of tengus and Drakes to keep range? slow them down! Fix the 3 different sized AB and MWD to where they can only fit on the ships they are intended for, 1mn on frigs and destroyers, 10mn on cruisers and Bcs, and 100 mn's on Battleships and bigger. makes alot more since than changing the HML since it would work on all the races ships.

There are other and better ways to keep us interested than "balancing" the ships we already have.



Look at it this way, theyre adding 4 new battlecruisers to the game, and a whole new weapon platform!

New Battlecruisers
Brutix
Harbinger
Prophecy
Ferox

Where they really in the game before? really? How often did you see any of these ships flying around? why? because they're totally eclipsed by the current drake and hurricane, this will no longer be the case.

New Weapon Platform
HAM

Once again, how many times have you seen a ship sporting these flying around? After the change, you may have some new viable equipment to equip

Also maybe we can try out the sacrilege again, maybe after the HAM changes it wont totally suck anymore!!

Oh look, we have new stuff to play with . . . Roll
Onyx Nyx
The Veldspar Protectorate
#6175 - 2012-11-23 08:00:10 UTC
So Guided Missile Precision is finally worth training for dedicated bomber pilots?

I kill kittens, and puppies and bunnies. I maim toddlers and teens and then more.

  • Richard (http://www.lfgcomic.com/)
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#6176 - 2012-11-23 09:26:49 UTC
Ubat Batuk wrote:
The missiles nerf is totally ******. A drake already has such a low DPS! balancing of what? little DPS with LESSER DPS? Have you tried a nighthawk for example? train forever and a damn low DPS. You are just making it a nightmare for people doing missions. How intelligent you people are with all these ridiculous nerfs? just focus your time expanding the game with new features instead of getting people pissed. Of course it's a lot easier to set a configuration parameter than develop and test new stuff! Do you not understand that people get pissed and stop playing? You are disenfranchising people in favour of some groups... You are just making Caldari ships not viable. Or perhaps every ship should cost 1-3b to be effective. Remember that PLEX greed is going to bite back at you badly...

I demand all my accounts missiles skills to be refunded.

It's becoming just like Dust beta, at first it was incredibly fun and later it became a nightmare to play due all nerfs and I got so pissed that I had to stop playing.


Some points:

1. Missiles overall are getting BETTER. The changes to HAMs, Rockets, Torpedos, and Light Missiles are significant.

2. The HML nerf is perhaps a little excessive, but whatever.

3. In my experience most of the pilots I see are fighting parked on a gate or station. Very rarely are they fighting in the open field, motoring around and really using the Drake's mobility and the range of HMs to their best advantage. In the kind of fighting most people do, they will be far better served by the improved HAMs anyway -- so for these people this patch will be a huge buff.

4. Now that CCP has adjusted the numbers a bit, the post patch Caracal is going to be extremely effective. I think it is finally going to be the cruiser the Caldari have been waiting all these years for. Because it was a Caldri ship people had to make some noise to get it, but there it is.

5. Every Caldari pilot understands how you feel about CCP.
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#6177 - 2012-11-23 09:27:07 UTC
Onyx Nyx wrote:
So Guided Missile Precision is finally worth training for dedicated bomber pilots?


Yes.
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#6178 - 2012-11-23 11:54:14 UTC
*chucks two cents into the thread*

Great to see T2 drawbacks finally gone. What took so long?

I get the feeling that the dev's flew against my long range Caracal fleets in FW, fighting as Gallente, and are somehow a bit upset about that :)

Agreed that Heavy Missiles were over powered, we used them a lot for just that reason, because a Moa is not a Thorax.

A -10% DPS is fine. The explosion radius though, thats going to hurt. The main threat - and what is used against us in FW - is stabbers, often fleet issue variants. So we fight low signature, fast, stabbers, that frankly eat us alive when they get in range when using something like a Caracal.

I'd rather see a -15% DPS decrease, but also a decrease in explosion radius to help us counter the winmitar.

It wouldn't be so bad if the web drones at light and medium sizes, were... actually any good. They barely tickle the speed and stacking issues mean that beyond 7 of them, they are useless.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Faora Zod
Don't mess with this DoJo
#6179 - 2012-11-23 12:42:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Faora Zod
Look at it this way, theyre adding 4 new battlecruisers to the game, and a whole new weapon platform!

New Battlecruisers
Brutix
Harbinger
Prophecy
Ferox



Where they really in the game before? really? How often did you see any of these ships flying around? why? because they're totally eclipsed by the current drake and hurricane, this will no longer be the case.


New Weapon Platform
HAM

Once again, how many times have you seen a ship sporting these flying around? After the change, you may have some new viable equipment to equip

Also maybe we can try out the sacrilege again, maybe after the HAM changes it wont totally suck anymore!!



Oh look, we have new stuff to play with

Yes I have seen these ships and HAMs in use, bingers more than the other 3 but they are used. They are not new material at all, just repainted and sold as new. HAMs are used all the time, look at the legion and sacrilege.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#6180 - 2012-11-23 13:49:48 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
This statement suggests that if the Tengu was removed from the game, Cruise Raven fleets would appear. This is absurd. The cruise Raven's clear inferiority to Abaddons and Rokhs makes it a bad fleet ship. You can't just imagine those other ships away.

This is an assumption. When the Drake is used in fleet, why does the Raven couldn't ? You can buy 3 Raven for the price of 2 Rokh or Abaddon.

As I showed, the Raven definitly have some advantages against the other BS, if you exclude Abaddon and Rokh (the only 2 BS with resist bonus which are very powerful, if not OP, for blob warfare), the Raven is among the best for a 70km range fleet and above. You can of course use a Minmatar ship to profit from alpha, but that will be the only advantage you can take over a Raven at these ranges.

That was for OT too : only the Abaddon and Rokh have a better tank than the Raven, and no ship outdps it beyond 70km (well, in fact, you may be able to do a tachyon fit which do it, though you will trade everything else).

A lot of reason make a ship used for fleet or not, and one of them is faith, because obviously stats are not enough ; and nobody have any faith in the Raven.

I'm not saying the Raven is best choice for fleet but people are too stupid to see it, I'm only saying the Raven is not a bad fleet ship, far from it, and it even have some particularities which could make it desirable (missiles in themselves, neutralizer capacity, price).

Ask yourselves, what qualities a Megathron, a Hyperion, a Maelstrom, a Tempest, a Dominix, a Typhoon, an Apocalypse or an Armageddon have against a Raven, especially for fleet ?