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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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TheLast Poofighter
Squirrel Horde
#5681 - 2012-10-31 10:04:05 UTC
Will these changes also apply to npc missiles?
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#5682 - 2012-10-31 10:08:59 UTC
rodyas wrote:
^ Can we have fits without T2 rigs?


Probably, doesnt change much on the ferox. 126km+falloff still 52k ehp.

Edit: Assuming you meant T1 rigs as opposed to none.
Brent Newton
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5683 - 2012-10-31 11:00:34 UTC
Yeah this is probably my last straw with eve. Me and my accounts are probably going to have to say goodbye. I run L5 missions and use a tengu and was training for a nighthawk, so this will effect me pretty heavily. I will always love eve, but figuring out a new 5billion isk fit on a new ship does not appeal to me at the moment.

http://fav.me/d95rl8j
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#5684 - 2012-10-31 11:16:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Noemi Nagano
Morrigan LeSante wrote:

That has TWICE the range of an expansion HML drake, unless the drake rigs for it and EVEN then, there are options to tweak above and a drake rigged for pure range does shocking damage to anything smaller than a BC thanks to sig changes.


So to address my original point, a drake WILL ABSOLUTELY NOT 'outdamage a ferox at all ranges' after the exansion.

So stop saying it will Smile


Morrigan, nice effort you put here, and I agree with you basically. But you can also consider to stop wasting your time, because Jorma will continue to tell lies, he always does. He claimed other stuff (and all of it was wrong) before, and even when people showed him numbers he continued his utter BS. There are just people which you have to ignore :) he will just go to the next and then to the next and return to "Drakes out-DPS Ferox at any range" when you finally thought he dropped it :D
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#5685 - 2012-10-31 11:34:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Well to be perfectly fair (I try to be) it's one hell of a lot closer right now but I see little point in worry about what is about to change (basically) next month and look to the future Smile

I guess the statement could be altered to "a drake will outdamage a ferox up to the max range of the drake", but then one could replace "drake" with "blaster-boat" and remain factually accurate Blink

It's still going to be the superior 'all-purpose' hull, its fitting is just...better. But again, this is a hull thing magnified by the HML. With luck the later BC changes will help this out and we have to hope the HML changes make that easier for the Devs.
Tom Gen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5686 - 2012-10-31 11:56:40 UTC
what about T3 ships. If the flag is not allowing you to eject, you will not be able anymore to protect your Skills.

T3 functionnment:

While a T3 cruser is destroyed, the pilot may loose one level of skill in the subsystem skill group.

The bypass to avoid that was to be able to eject before destruction (a very good feature from my point of view).

With the new flagging system, everyone engaging with T3 will be subject to this skill loss because the pilot won't be able to eject anymore.

I found that silly !!! There won't be anymore much engagement with Strategic Cruser

Please CCP take this feature out !!! Leave us the right to eject

Thanks.
Kai'rae Saarkus
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5687 - 2012-10-31 11:59:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Kai'rae Saarkus
Tom, Crimewatch thread perhaps?

And, are we seriously considering a Rail Ferox? Wow. This thread is full of the awesome.

Edit: on further review, a rail ferox with 10mn Digital Booster rockets, and Tech II rigs..... wow.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#5688 - 2012-10-31 12:18:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Kai'rae Saarkus wrote:
Edit: on further review, a rail ferox with 10mn Digital Booster rockets, and Tech II rigs..... wow.



So swap it for a poverty spec fit if you want, makes little difference P

Edit: It's no less silly than the notion that a 60km ranged boat can out damage a sniper hull 'at all ranges' Blink
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#5689 - 2012-10-31 12:29:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
rodyas wrote:
^ Can we have fits without T2 rigs?


Probably, doesnt change much on the ferox. 126km+falloff still 52k ehp.

Edit: Assuming you meant T1 rigs as opposed to none.

If you want to play silly games, you could have had used the Harpy which also outrange the Drake (even the current one), but also any other small and medium LR hull.
edit : except other rail caldari hull of course.

It's a ******* caldari ship with an insane range bonus, of course it outrange the drake. But that don't mean HML will be useless. You can always take some borderline scenarios to emphasize a ship strength.

And yet, damage along range and according to damage application have to be balanced.


For my numbers, they are correct, so if it's different from what you remember, either the formula is wrong, you misread/misinterpreted my numbers or your memories are wrong.

For the Raven, I EFT warriored a little and saw that with cruise missiles+3BCS it have better damage than 425mm Rokh at 70km and above. Its tank is better than an alphaMaelstrom, and it have heavy+medium neutralizers. That is with rigor+flare rigs and CNCM. It's resist are those of a Maelstrom. It also have better agility and velocity than any of these tier3 BS. With precision + rigs, it have comparable damage application than fury HML.

These stats are better than any gallente ship for large fleet duty, and the only advantage gallente can have is armor tank, if this is an advantage.

So I'm a bit puzzled about all the hate against the Raven. Indeed current Torp are bad for damage application and the 6 medslot mean you cannot have the utility you would need to use this weapon, though for cruise missiles, the ship perform well compared to the other long range BS, and outperform them all in dps above 70km. Of course, the tengu is plain better.

As all those who know the Raven problem prefer to keep their secrets for them, I guess I'll remain ignorant.

Here is the fit, just in case :
[Raven, test_cruise]

6x Cruise Missile Launcher II (Caldari Navy Mjolnir Cruise Missile)
Heavy Energy Neutralizer II
Medium Energy Neutralizer II

100MN Microwarpdrive II
2x Large Shield Extender II
2x Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II

3x Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II
Signal Amplifier II

Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Large Warhead Flare Catalyst I
[Statistics - all5]

Effective HP: 101 774 (Eve: 82 201)
Tank Ability: 88,74 DPS
Damage Profile - Omni-Damage (EM: 25,00%, Ex: 25,00%, Ki: 25,00%, Th: 25,00%)
Shield Resists - EM: 75,87%, Ex: 77,36%, Ki: 72,83%, Th: 63,78%
Armor Resists - EM: 57,50%, Ex: 23,50%, Ki: 36,25%, Th: 53,25%

Capacitor (Stable at 70,24%)(MWD and neutra inactive)

Volley Damage: 3 597,15
DPS: 517,66
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#5690 - 2012-10-31 12:30:01 UTC
Kai'rae Saarkus wrote:
Tom, Crimewatch thread perhaps?

And, are we seriously considering a Rail Ferox? Wow. This thread is full of the awesome.

Edit: on further review, a rail ferox with 10mn Digital Booster rockets, and Tech II rigs..... wow.


You are talking to a race of people who thrive on 5 billion isk tengus. They don't know what real is anymore.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#5691 - 2012-10-31 12:32:46 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
It's a ******* caldari ship with an insane range bonus, of course it outrange the drake. But that don't mean HML will be useless. You can always take some borderline scenarios to emphasize a ship strength.

And yet, damage along range and according to damage application have to be balanced.


I never suggested otherwise, I merely refuted an epic over exaggeration. Maybes I got trolled Smile
Keko Khaan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5692 - 2012-10-31 12:53:01 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
I was complaining before this thread they absolutley had to do something to end the Drakes and Tengus Online pattern that had taken hold for years.


This is just wrong imho. I havent seen tengu and drake online. Sure there is tengu fleets and theres drake fleets. But also theres just asmuch armor hac fleets with zealots there are loki and legion fleets. Then there is t3 fleets with oracles, nagas, tornados and talos. There are cane fleets. There are mael fleets. There is apoc fleets. There is rokh fleets etc you name it. They all out there. Just because goons and some other big alliances uses drake blobs doesnt mean theyre only used doctrines..

Tengu is mostly uber PVE cruiser if something.. Maybe HML's shoot bit far compared to other long range systems but still it doesnt make tengu and drake online. I remember few years back everyone was saying that drake sucks and caldari is only for carebears...
Keko Khaan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5693 - 2012-10-31 13:39:46 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Kenshi Hanshin wrote:
Drakes and Tengus need a high amount of EHP. Especially in shield! In case you forgot our armor values are crap. So if you do break our shields we are toast.

That said most people use armor-tanked ships (Amarr or Gallente) or the dual (jack-of-all-trades) 'Winmatar' for PvP. Furthermore, if you look on Battleclinic most PvP ships are armor tanked regardless. Caldari ships are solely and only shield tanked. Therefore it is logical that our shields be the strongest in the game. Shields have the advantage of being the only type able to be truly passive. That said, shields are also more susceptible to volley damage than armor tanks as our resists on EM and Thermal are the lowest (~0-25% EM & ~20-25% TH depending on ship bonuses). No armor T1 ship have a 0% resistence hole. In short, no matter what you say, if you fly an armor-tank your resistences will always be higher overall than mine with a caldari.


Drake has 97,3k EHP with TP, MWD, long range weapons (HML) and three damage mods
Armor Harbinger has 58,5k EHP with MWD, point, web, two damage mods and just enough (well, with 3 ACRs) grid for short range turrets (HPL) and is painfully slow. Oh, and it needs 6% CPU implant to fit...

If you want to talk about resists, check T1 armor resists, especially kinetic and explosive.

I can get Prophecy to 97,6k EHP but it's not what you'd call a cheap fit.


Funny numbers you pull out. Dual LSE drake with 2 invuls, dcu and rigs is around 90-100k EHP ingame

My HML drake with TP and MWD have only 75k EHP ingame with pretty awesome shield skills, 1 LSE , 2 invuls, dcu, em and extender rigs.
Koen L
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#5694 - 2012-10-31 14:49:15 UTC
You should try balancing this with a bit more fine tuning. These nerfs for me look like sledgehammering equiped elefants hitting a glashouse.
Please try more fine tuning, reduce the nerfs within a range of 5% to max 10%. Make a second step with the overnext expansion sets if it is really necessary.
Do not take away chocolate from too many people at once.
I love my chocolate. I will hate you when you take it away from me.X

♫ When your ship gets blown to bits ♪ ♫ And you lose your Faction fits ♪ \☻/ Don't worry ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫ ♫ ♪ ♫ ♪ Be Happy \☻/
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5695 - 2012-10-31 14:53:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
That has TWICE the range of an expansion HML drake, unless the drake rigs for it and EVEN then, there are options to tweak above and a drake rigged for pure range does shocking damage to anything smaller than a BC thanks to sig changes.


So to address my original point, a drake WILL ABSOLUTELY NOT 'outdamage a ferox at all ranges' after the exansion.

So stop saying it will Smile


Ever heard of web or TP? Drake has two utility mid slots.

And your 300+ mil fail fit is so bad I don't even know where to start.

Btw, why should tank rigged Drake have same range as range bonused, sniper fit Ferox?

Keko Khaan wrote:
Funny numbers you pull out. Dual LSE drake with 2 invuls, dcu and rigs is around 90-100k EHP ingame

My HML drake with TP and MWD have only 75k EHP ingame with pretty awesome shield skills, 1 LSE , 2 invuls, dcu, em and extender rigs.


Like I said in another post I got tank number for Drake wrong:
93,7k EHP with:
- experimental MWD
- 2x T2 invuls
- T2 EM Ward Field
- T2 LSE
- meta 4 TP
- meta 4 DC
- 3x T2 BCS
- 3x T1 CDFE
EgoMan
Perkone
Caldari State
#5696 - 2012-10-31 14:59:54 UTC
Holy crap man, I just came back to eve today after a 4 month break and this sucks.... I thought they just buffed missle in the last year so that they wouldnt suck anymore and now they're gonna nerf them again? Makes no sense at all.... Must be greasing the squeeky wheel again.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#5697 - 2012-10-31 15:12:23 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
That has TWICE the range of an expansion HML drake, unless the drake rigs for it and EVEN then, there are options to tweak above and a drake rigged for pure range does shocking damage to anything smaller than a BC thanks to sig changes.


So to address my original point, a drake WILL ABSOLUTELY NOT 'outdamage a ferox at all ranges' after the exansion.

So stop saying it will Smile


Ever heard of web or TP? Drake has two utility mid slots.

And your 300+ mil fail fit is so bad I don't even know where to start.

Btw, why should tank rigged Drake have same range as range bonused, sniper fit Ferox?


I never said it should - you posted an utter falsehood and were called on it.

And it doesnt need to be named/T2 rigs either TII/poverty kit does fine too.

And it IS a fail fit, yes - one which STILL outdamages the drake at certain ranges - you know, that thing you said cant happen?

Here's reminder for everyone:

Jorma Morkkis wrote:


HML Drake outdamages 250mm Ferox at any range.



One last try. NO. IT. DOESN'T.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5698 - 2012-10-31 15:23:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
And you seem to forget that with rigs Drake does 414 dps at 125 km while your fail fit Ferox does 198 dps at 120 km.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#5699 - 2012-10-31 15:25:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
And you seem to forget that with rigs Drake does 414 dps at 125 km while your fail fit Ferox does 198 dps at same range.



Really? In December? Really?

How much does it do then? And at what range?


Edit: It also does 0 at 126, even today. A ferox hits passed that (if you particularly want to, ergo your statement is STILL false).
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5700 - 2012-10-31 15:27:06 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
And you seem to forget that with rigs Drake does 414 dps at 125 km while your fail fit Ferox does 198 dps at same range.



Really? In December? Really?

How much does it do then? And at what range?


414 - 414 * 0.10
125 - 125 * 0.25