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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Malcolm Clayton
SD Industries
#541 - 2012-09-18 20:26:21 UTC
oh... overpowered to useless.... CCP play your own game and patch then Blink.
Proletariat Tingtango
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#542 - 2012-09-18 20:26:41 UTC
Tomcio FromFarAway wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:

Terrible, meandering, disingenuous post


Thank you for this ' useless wall of text' post Lili.


English must be your second language so i fixed that for you
Gandin Grothe
Perkone
Caldari State
#543 - 2012-09-18 20:26:56 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
For all those that are upset about the heavy missile nerf - we need one of the spreadsheet jockeys here to throw up a graph of DPS vs range for all four battlecruisers. Compare max skilled Drake with HML, navy missiles to a Ferox, Brutix, Hurricane, and harbinger (also with max skills) using the longest-range ammo. Ignore modules and rigs for now - we've seen both tank and gank varieties of all of the above.

Comparing raw DPS and range both before and after the changes, it becomes quite apparent why HML's are being brought in line with other weapons systems. They should provide consistent damage, certainly, but do not need to win both in maximum DPS within optimal AND a base range that exceeds the falloff of most of the long-range turrets.

It's hard to see with numbers on a page - but if you look at the damage curves, they tell the whole story.


Something like this?

http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/1209/lrc.gif

This is with max skills, no other modules besides the weapons and long range ammo.


Yes, exactly. Many thanks for providing this. As you can see in the graph, heavy missiles pretty much dominate this range class of weapons, with the only weapons system providing any advantage at all being railguns on a Ferox - and at a huge DPS hit to achieve this.

If you run the same graph after the changes Fozzie is proposing, you will see that there are now actual advantages to using other weapons besides HML at these ranges.


Ohh like critical hits and instant damage. meh
Lord Ryan
True Xero
#544 - 2012-09-18 20:27:10 UTC
ISD Suvetar wrote:
Hi everyone!

We appreciate that any such threads are always bound to generate strong opinions for and against anything being discussed but I'm asking you to please consider if what you're posting is constructive before you click the post button.

If you feel that a post is breaking the rules, trolling/ranting and so on, please use the report button to let the moderators know to have a look.

Lastly, personal attacks against CCP employees are both against the rules and viewed very poorly and may well lead to forum privileges being revoked.

Thanks and fly safe.

PS: As a final note, please note the wording of CCP Fozzie's post; these are tentative plans and as such are subject to change/complete reversal as always. Please consider that before going off on the deep end!



First get out! You have no business here. You are not a Dev and can not fix our issues or answer any of our questions.
Second either you are deleting faster than I can read or I'm missing the personal attacks.
Your presence will do nothing but further agitate us. May sound harsh but I'm tired of ISD heavy handediness.

Do not assume anything above this line was typed by me. Nerf the Truth, it's inconvenient.
Reticle
Sight Picture
#545 - 2012-09-18 20:27:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Reticle
Lelob wrote:
[quote=Nikolai Dostoyevski]Any buff that would make a weapon platform shoot out to 80km with 400 consistent dps that hits almost anything decently well and took no cap would be utterly game crushing. This nerf needs to happen.

It should be pointed out that missiles are the only charge/ammunition that can be destroyed and the only ammunition that can be outrun entirely. The tradeoff, at least what I thought was the tradeoff, for missile boats was, you get the full damage at range, but that damage is mitigated by the targets speed, size, and ability to destroy or outrun the missiles (firewall anyone?). These changes reduce the damage and range and provide two more options for mitigating damage. Something about that just doesn't make sense.

edit: also, if defender missiles worked properly, complaints about HMs would probably stop
Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
#546 - 2012-09-18 20:27:32 UTC
Proletariat Tingtango wrote:
Tomcio FromFarAway wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:

Terrible, meandering, disingenuous post


Thank you for this ' useless wall of text' post Lili.


English must be your second language so i fixed that for you


You seem to be mad over something.Twisted
Cpt Gobla
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#547 - 2012-09-18 20:27:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Cpt Gobla
War Kitten wrote:
Compare Tech II long range ammo across the board.
Compare Faction DPS ammo across the board.
Compare Tech II high DPS "tracking" ammo across the board.


There are no Tech II long range Heavy Missiles.
Faction DPS Ammo has optimal ranges of under 20km, providing around 50 more base DPS on BC hulls (no damage mods or rigs), compared to Faction Scourge.
Tech II DPS Ammo has optimal ranges of under 10km, providing around 25 more base DPS on BC hulls (no damage mods or rigs), compared to Scourge Furies.

Those comparisons would be even more in favour of missiles due to their extreme damage projection.
Laura Dexx
Blue Canary
Watch This
#548 - 2012-09-18 20:29:57 UTC
Reticle wrote:
Lelob wrote:
[quote=Nikolai Dostoyevski]Any buff that would make a weapon platform shoot out to 80km with 400 consistent dps that hits almost anything decently well and took no cap would be utterly game crushing. This nerf needs to happen.

It should be pointed out that missiles are the only charge/ammunition that can be destroyed and the only ammunition that can be outrun entirely. The tradeoff, at least what I thought was the tradeoff, for missile boats was, you get the full damage at range, but that damage is mitigated by the targets speed, size, and ability to destroy or outrun the missiles (firewall anyone?). These changes reduce the damage and range and provide two more options for mitigating damage. Something about that just doesn't make sense.



Guns can't be outrun? I guess I must have missed tracking all this time.
Daneel Trevize
Give my 11percent back
#549 - 2012-09-18 20:31:25 UTC
Proletariat Tingtango wrote:
So hey look, I hated drakefleet and i dont mind the pvp ramifications, but what am I supposed to make money with in nullsec as a low-sp pilot? I can salvage off of kinder vets sometimes, but that's a finite and pretty limited source of isk. I'm just now able to do forsaken hubs on my own, and that's my only steady source of isk. With these nerfs on the board it really sounds like you're dicking low-sp pilots that live in nullsec out of one of their major sources of income, which wasn't that major to begin with.

I was also slowly training for a tengu to rat and now i'm second guessing that. Did you guys even think this nerf through? Do you actually want people to never use the drake or heavy-missile based ships ever again?

It seems like you could have reduced the viability of heavy missiles in pvp without completely screwing low-sp income sources.

Edit: And if anyone tells me that I should mine I will take a veldspar asteroid and cram it waaayyy up your ass.
Group PvE, in this MMO?!

Seriously, do it, surprise yourself. It's not like you even need to worry about aggro switching when shooting non-sleepers & non-incursion sanshas.
iskflakes
#550 - 2012-09-18 20:31:52 UTC
Posting within the first 30 pages of an impending threadnought!

The nerf is slightly too large, I think a 10% damage reduction would do it. When you consider the delayed DPS it is clear the missile ships should have a slightly higher range-damage product than instant damage turret ships. The improvement in precision missiles is VERY welcome though.

I am worried by the general trend of this rebalancing, which seems to be sending the message that ISK isn't relevant anymore and that all ships should be equally good (e.g. T1 vs T2 logi cruisers, T1 frigates vs everything). To be clear, I think this is a VERY bad direction to go in. The most significant factors in determining the outcome of a battle should be: Ship choice, ISK, skillpoints and blob size, in that order. The way this balancing is going, ship choice and blob size will be the ONLY factors.

-
Reticle
Sight Picture
#551 - 2012-09-18 20:31:58 UTC
Laura Dexx wrote:
Reticle wrote:
Lelob wrote:
[quote=Nikolai Dostoyevski]Any buff that would make a weapon platform shoot out to 80km with 400 consistent dps that hits almost anything decently well and took no cap would be utterly game crushing. This nerf needs to happen.

It should be pointed out that missiles are the only charge/ammunition that can be destroyed and the only ammunition that can be outrun entirely. The tradeoff, at least what I thought was the tradeoff, for missile boats was, you get the full damage at range, but that damage is mitigated by the targets speed, size, and ability to destroy or outrun the missiles (firewall anyone?). These changes reduce the damage and range and provide two more options for mitigating damage. Something about that just doesn't make sense.



Guns can't be outrun? I guess I must have missed tracking all this time.

try outrunning them in a straight line some time
Wolfstorm
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#552 - 2012-09-18 20:33:07 UTC
Lord Ryan wrote:


First get out! You have no business here. You are not a Dev and can not fix our issues or answer any of our questions.
Second either you are deleting faster than I can read or I'm missing the personal attacks.
Your presence will do nothing but further agitate us. May sound harsh but I'm tired of ISD heavy handediness.



Agreed ISD is useless. They need to go - they serve no purpose of value to the community.
Lili Lu
#553 - 2012-09-18 20:34:42 UTC
Proletariat Tingtango wrote:
Tomcio FromFarAway wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:

Terrible, meandering, disingenuous post


Thank you for this ' useless wall of text' post Lili.


English must be your second language so i fixed that for you

And meanwhile I've seen some other Goons post favorably on the changes, and I've been getting some likes from Goons. Thank you for restoring my faith in the individuality of every member of the goon collective. Maybe I'll pony up the 500mil i was told was all I need to pay to get in.Big smile That was 500mil to you right?P
James1122
Perimeter Trade and Distribution Inc
#554 - 2012-09-18 20:35:09 UTC
The knee jerk unreasoned tears in this thread are simply depressing.


This nerf is completely needed to bring hml in-line with the other weapon systems. You should see proliferation of other ships and setups now because of this.

+1 fozzie!

....
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#555 - 2012-09-18 20:36:12 UTC
Mourning Souls wrote:
Tengus and Drakes are the reason for the nerf right? Given how other missile ships look sad in comparison I'm gonna say yes.

Why not affect the ships directly?

Drop the damage bonus on Drakes from 5 to 2-3% and remove the resist bonus.
As far as Tengus go I'm not sure what to say other than nerf everything. T3's are supposed to be a jack of all trades, but they shouldn't be that good at them.


It's just

  • Accelerated Ejection Bay
  • Augmented Capacitor Reservoir


that makes a Tengu overpowered ..

If the Tengu itself was the problem then


  • Power Core Multiplier
  • Magnetic Infusion Basin


would be equally overpowered AND popular aswell.
Laura Dexx
Blue Canary
Watch This
#556 - 2012-09-18 20:36:20 UTC
Reticle wrote:
Laura Dexx wrote:
Reticle wrote:
Lelob wrote:
[quote=Nikolai Dostoyevski]Any buff that would make a weapon platform shoot out to 80km with 400 consistent dps that hits almost anything decently well and took no cap would be utterly game crushing. This nerf needs to happen.

It should be pointed out that missiles are the only charge/ammunition that can be destroyed and the only ammunition that can be outrun entirely. The tradeoff, at least what I thought was the tradeoff, for missile boats was, you get the full damage at range, but that damage is mitigated by the targets speed, size, and ability to destroy or outrun the missiles (firewall anyone?). These changes reduce the damage and range and provide two more options for mitigating damage. Something about that just doesn't make sense.



Guns can't be outrun? I guess I must have missed tracking all this time.

try outrunning them in a straight line some time


Whoa we're settling on a direction now?
Wolfstorm
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#557 - 2012-09-18 20:38:32 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Suvetar
James1122 wrote:
The knee jerk unreasoned tears in this thread are simply depressing.


This nerf is completely needed to bring hml in-line with the other weapon systems. You should see proliferation of other ships and setups now because of this.

+1 fozzie!


Other ships need to be brought in line with being useful - not taking a working and nuanced platform and making it 100% useless.

CCP forgot how to make new content and fix broken stuff - they got their tech in hand but lost all of the designers worth a damn.

Edit: removed rant - ISD Suvetar
Reticle
Sight Picture
#558 - 2012-09-18 20:39:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Reticle
Laura Dexx wrote:
Guns can't be outrun? I guess I must have missed tracking all this time.
try outrunning them in a straight line some time
Whoa we're settling on a direction now?

Pick any direction you like with a firewall setup. Do those work on turret based weapon ammo? Didn't think so.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#559 - 2012-09-18 20:40:07 UTC
I'm Down wrote:
I don't think one player every said Heavy Missiles needed a massive DPS nerf. I think most people said nerf range...


They probably did, but.....

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Ana Fox
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#560 - 2012-09-18 20:41:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Ana Fox
Proletariat Tingtango wrote:
So hey look, I hated drakefleet and i dont mind the pvp ramifications, but what am I supposed to make money with in nullsec as a low-sp pilot? I can salvage off of kinder vets sometimes, but that's a finite and pretty limited source of isk. I'm just now able to do forsaken hubs on my own, and that's my only steady source of isk. With these nerfs on the board it really sounds like you're dicking low-sp pilots that live in nullsec out of one of their major sources of income, which wasn't that major to begin with.

I was also slowly training for a tengu to rat and now i'm second guessing that. Did you guys even think this nerf through? Do you actually want people to never use the drake or heavy-missile based ships ever again?

It seems like you could have reduced the viability of heavy missiles in pvp without completely screwing low-sp income sources.

Edit: And if anyone tells me that I should mine I will take a veldspar asteroid and cram it waaayyy up your ass.


This is my main concern.New players will be those who will have hard time.When I say new I think those that are up to 6-7 months old.It is not problem to get other ships more used it is that they / we dont have what other ships to use to be if nothing close to effective as those two are mostly reason for this nerf it seems.

I would not have problem to use T2 cruiser on my Caldari pilot ,but that T2 suck so bad .

I will say same as I did in my previous post ,HML was op in some things like range and same dps application no matter of target distance ,but was that dmg so much op to be 20% less now with this proposed changes?

Again I would not have problem if I am player that is two years old and you have gunnery and cross trained ship options,but sadly I dont have.For us it will be even more hard to get involved in some cool stuff older players do just cause some went Caldari way.

Lucky for me I have one more pilot with gunnery :/.