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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Sigras
Conglomo
#5461 - 2012-10-27 07:16:09 UTC
Cazador 64 wrote:
I have come to find out You will not get any rational explanation for this nerf.
You will get some arbitrary numbers thrown at you that have not actually been tested in game and given some hypothetical situations based on theorycrafting and spreadsheets.
Or just the well its your fault for training missiles you should have know they were garbage but yet some how overpowered and needed to be nerfed so cross train projectiles.

The fact of the matter is there is no reason to train into missiles ever guns do it all better that if why you do not see the missiles boats in the high end incursion fleets even though missiles are the king on pve but yet worse then anything else out there. I agree with your post 100% if you trained guns you are lacking there is no reason to train missiles and noone would ever say hey you should have trained missiles. But if you trained missiles you are lacking in every aspect possible and get told well you should have diversified.
Its all a bunch of **** CCP pulled this nerf out of their asses to appease the cry babies because **** all if projectiles don't rule every aspect of pvp missiles can not be on the top of that list.

yep, its confirmed, its more effective to fight a curse in a harbinger than a drake

Its confirmed that my blasters do more damage than HAMs at 20 km

Its confirmed that my rails do more damage than HMLs at 50 km

Its confirmed . . . no reason to use missiles . . . Roll

seriously though, autocannons are totally OP at short ranges; theyre better than blasters in pretty much every way, but lets be honest, compare the HML to rails, beams or artillery . . . sure rails usually out range them but other than that, theyre at an advantage in pretty much every way over the other long range weapons
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#5462 - 2012-10-27 08:28:18 UTC
Sigras wrote:


First off, allow me to introduce you to a little module I like to call "EM Ward Field II" it has a way of fixing that EM hole problem you mentioned. Just like the armor tankers have to fix that Explosive hole problem . . . Roll.


I agree with you about this. Caldari just can fix their EM hole. Winmatar t2 on the other hand dont even have one ..

Another thing about resistances: most Caldari missile ships are bonused on kinetic damage, its an easy way to hardcounter their DPS by fitting kinetic resistance. Because with everything else they just deal 25% less (which is not impressive at all ..), This is something one cant do vs. Projectiles, and only partly vs Hybrids and Lasers, although both of them have other issues. The fact you dont see an overuse of kin-resi modules shows pretty well how people are either 1) not able to adapt to a situation or 2) this situation is in fact not there. Roll


Sigras wrote:

Secondly, I have no idea what you mean by them taking the most damage up close or being primary . . . they take no more damage than anyone else up close, and usually dont get primaried over anyone else because of their race . . .


Agreed, Caldari get hardly ever primaried if not flying ECM or Logi, simply because they have weakest DPS per HP. Which is because they have both, DPS not on the high side (but admitted, with good range projection) AND high EHP. So one would be better of to kill higher DPS ships with less HP first.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#5463 - 2012-10-27 08:35:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Noemi Nagano
Sigras wrote:

seriously though, autocannons are totally OP at short ranges; theyre better than blasters in pretty much every way, but lets be honest, compare the HML to rails, beams or artillery . . . sure rails usually out range them but other than that, theyre at an advantage in pretty much every way over the other long range weapons


At long ranges yes. Thats the dilemma we have with that flat damage curve. And with the stupid fitting reqs HML-HAM in comparison to all other SR-LR. Again: give HML different ammo for different ranges, make it 3, make it 4, whatever. A 3 or 4 stepped curve would be so much easier to balance. To find a fix for flight time issues at higher ranges would also be easier that way. Change the reqs, so HML are the ones which are harder to fit - HML Drake would no longer be the tankier of the 2. And you would see people actually use more HAMs, because right now they have to sacrifice tank to fit HAMs, and dont have to sacrifice tank to stay far out with HML (which is less dangerous anyway ;) ) - so not hard to guess what people like better, in this risk averse universe? :)

I am pretty sure Eve could be brought to really good balance with just some minor general changes and some hulls completely repaired. Then Eve-kill would be about all weapons the same and not >50% projectiles and less than 50% for the rest.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5464 - 2012-10-27 09:32:50 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Another thing about resistances: most Caldari missile ships are bonused on kinetic damage, its an easy way to hardcounter their DPS by fitting kinetic resistance. Because with everything else they just deal 25% less (which is not impressive at all ..), This is something one cant do vs. Projectiles, and only partly vs Hybrids and Lasers, although both of them have other issues. The fact you dont see an overuse of kin-resi modules shows pretty well how people are either 1) not able to adapt to a situation or 2) this situation is in fact not there. Roll


Your theory has a massive flaw. If someone uses slots just to counter kinetic missile damage they're leaving other resists holes for you to exploit. Check new Caracal. Where do you see kinetic damage bonus? They have said they are planning to replace Drake's kinetic damage bonus with rof bonus. That's a direct buff to Drake's damage for all damage types.

What? You can't counter projectiles with resistances?
Ever tried to shoot Barrage at Amarr T2 ships?
Sigras
Conglomo
#5465 - 2012-10-27 09:38:45 UTC
quasarabyss wrote:
a) the training for missiles does not assist with other weapon types, whereas the base skills in gunnery apply across multiple Hybrid weps/lazers/Projectiles.

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

Seriously this has nothing to do with balance . . . Allow me to give you a ridiculous example to illustrate

If they came out with a new weapon system (plasma launchers) that take 2 years to train for, and none of the skills that affect them affect anything else
They do 200 DPS per medium plasma launcher, using 175 PG, 25 CPU, no cap, no ammo, have an optimal of 20 km and track at .4 rads/second
Does the fact that they take two years to train for make them any less overpowered?

Training time has nothing to do with balance.

quasarabyss wrote:
c) getting effective dps from a drake or raven - I found that even with damage, rigor and catalyst rigs, the Drake and Raven dps is improved but still not fantastic. A CNR is a little better (ofc) but as soon as you rig it for improved *applied* dps there goes your rig slots. And I still like a couple TP's on there whenever possible.

I find this argument is most common with people who go ratting a lot, and this is because the stupid rats fly straight toward you making your damage application 100% with turrets, but missiles still take their damage reduction

The thing is, nobody is that stupid in PvP the damage application of HMLs is way better than pulse lasers when fighting a well flown frigate.

quasarabyss wrote:
Missiles are already low dps at close range (I know, Tengu might be an exception), so if they become less effective at medium-long range then the question is: why would you invest in training for missiles, ever?

HAMs do (and will continue to do) more DPS than any other short ranged weapon at 20 km
Rockets and lights are very effective in PvP
Cruise and Torps still need work
Havent had much time to mess around with the new HMLs so i cant comment on them.

quasarabyss wrote:
4. Tengu's
The Caldari have one ship that is clearly superior, but are way behind everywhere else. And besides, the thing still looks like a drake!

The fact that all of their other ships suck is not a justification for making one ship overpowered.

quasarabyss wrote:
5. If missiles were so good....
The incursion runners would be using them.

This is an idiotic statement . . .

PvE has nothing to do with PvP; people use faction battleships and weird specific setups in incursions all the time, this doesnt make them good, and the things that they're not using arent necessarily bad.
Sigras
Conglomo
#5466 - 2012-10-27 09:40:41 UTC
quasarabyss wrote:
In Eve and in RL there is always something stronger and weaker. Once you remove the 'overpowered' stuff from the game -tengus cruise missiles NM's mach's lazors hybrids projectiles vindi's rokh et al - there will still be something stronger and something weaker.

First of all, this is erroneous . . . for example, starcraft

secondly, you dont want perfect balance, you want well crafted subtle imbalance.
http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/perfect-imbalance
Sigras
Conglomo
#5467 - 2012-10-27 09:48:09 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Sigras wrote:


First off, allow me to introduce you to a little module I like to call "EM Ward Field II" it has a way of fixing that EM hole problem you mentioned. Just like the armor tankers have to fix that Explosive hole problem . . . Roll.


I agree with you about this. Caldari just can fix their EM hole. Winmatar t2 on the other hand dont even have one ..

Neither do amarr T2 but nobody seems to complain about that, so it clearly isnt the issue. also you forgot to mention the insanely high thermal resist the caldari T2 ships get.

Noemi Nagano wrote:
Another thing about resistances: most Caldari missile ships are bonused on kinetic damage, its an easy way to hardcounter their DPS by fitting kinetic resistance. Because with everything else they just deal 25% less (which is not impressive at all ..), This is something one cant do vs. Projectiles, and only partly vs Hybrids and Lasers, although both of them have other issues. The fact you dont see an overuse of kin-resi modules shows pretty well how people are either 1) not able to adapt to a situation or 2) this situation is in fact not there. Roll

First of all, most PvP fits are omni tanks anyway.

Secondly, missiles are miles ahead of lasers and hybrids because they at least can switch damage if theyre shooting at gallente T2, if the amarr are shooting at matari T2 or gallente are shooting at caldari T2 theyre just boned and might as well go home.

Lastly, the caldari ships are having their bonuses moved away from the kinetic, after the changes i believe the only remaining ships to have a kinetic only bonus will be the drake, the hookbill, the navy caracal, and the T2 ships (i may be wrong about this one)
Sigras
Conglomo
#5468 - 2012-10-27 09:55:07 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Sigras wrote:
seriously though, autocannons are totally OP at short ranges; theyre better than blasters in pretty much every way, but lets be honest, compare the HML to rails, beams or artillery . . . sure rails usually out range them but other than that, theyre at an advantage in pretty much every way over the other long range weapons


At long ranges yes. Thats the dilemma we have with that flat damage curve. And with the stupid fitting reqs HML-HAM in comparison to all other SR-LR. Again: give HML different ammo for different ranges, make it 3, make it 4, whatever. A 3 or 4 stepped curve would be so much easier to balance. To find a fix for flight time issues at higher ranges would also be easier that way.

Its kinda funny, theyre trying to do this with the T2 ammo and people are complaining about that too. The short range high damage ammo creates a 2 tier damage curve and people are whining and complaining about it.

Noemi Nagano wrote:
Change the reqs, so HML are the ones which are harder to fit - HML Drake would no longer be the tankier of the 2. And you would see people actually use more HAMs, because right now they have to sacrifice tank to fit HAMs, and dont have to sacrifice tank to stay far out with HML (which is less dangerous anyway ;) ) - so not hard to guess what people like better, in this risk averse universe? :)

Very much this ^^

Basically they should just switch the PG requirements for HAM and HML
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#5469 - 2012-10-27 10:26:31 UTC
Sigras wrote:

Its kinda funny, theyre trying to do this with the T2 ammo and people are complaining about that too. The short range high damage ammo creates a 2 tier damage curve and people are whining and complaining about it.


I agree with you here, its one step. But its missing a bit the long range aspect ... well, we will see how it works. I am pretty sure it could have been fixed in a much better way, but we cant change anything atm anyway.

Sigras wrote:

Noemi Nagano wrote:
Change the reqs, so HML are the ones which are harder to fit - HML Drake would no longer be the tankier of the 2. And you would see people actually use more HAMs, because right now they have to sacrifice tank to fit HAMs, and dont have to sacrifice tank to stay far out with HML (which is less dangerous anyway ;) ) - so not hard to guess what people like better, in this risk averse universe? :)

Very much this ^^

Basically they should just switch the PG requirements for HAM and HML


Fozzie, read this? :)
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#5470 - 2012-10-27 10:28:51 UTC
Sigras wrote:

Secondly, missiles are miles ahead of lasers and hybrids because they at least can switch damage if theyre shooting at gallente T2, if the amarr are shooting at matari T2 or gallente are shooting at caldari T2 theyre just boned and might as well go home.)


Admitted.

Sigras wrote:

Lastly, the caldari ships are having their bonuses moved away from the kinetic, after the changes i believe the only remaining ships to have a kinetic only bonus will be the drake, the hookbill, the navy caracal, and the T2 ships (i may be wrong about this one)


Ok, but that was not the case with the Drake so far, thats what I meant. I do see a movement from kin bonus to other DPS bonus ideas, and I like them.
Faora Zod
Don't mess with this DoJo
#5471 - 2012-10-27 13:04:48 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Faora Zod wrote:
Has any one brought up the reload time? Missile Launchers take 10 seconds, while guns take 5 not to mention the instant swap for lens.


Also incorrect.

Lasers swap instantly, projectiles take 10sec only hybribs swap in 5 seconds.



my point is that if it is going to be "balanced" than reload time needs to be considered to, they should all have the same delay time, AND hold the same amount of rounds. Either that or each one of the weapon systems needs to have an advantage to it. Be it range, dps, instantly swapping damage type, or a variety of damage types. It isn't balanced unless everything is
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#5472 - 2012-10-27 14:03:24 UTC
Faora Zod wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Faora Zod wrote:
Has any one brought up the reload time? Missile Launchers take 10 seconds, while guns take 5 not to mention the instant swap for lens.


Also incorrect.

Lasers swap instantly, projectiles take 10sec only hybribs swap in 5 seconds.



my point is that if it is going to be "balanced" than reload time needs to be considered to, they should all have the same delay time, AND hold the same amount of rounds. Either that or each one of the weapon systems needs to have an advantage to it. Be it range, dps, instantly swapping damage type, or a variety of damage types. It isn't balanced unless everything is


You do have a fair point there .. AFAIK AC run out of ammo way later than their missile peers. Lasers normally dont run out at all and range change is a breeze. Hybrids is somewhere in between. But yeah, too many people just focus on DPS and range and ignore everything else :)
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#5473 - 2012-10-27 14:04:30 UTC
Faora Zod wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Faora Zod wrote:
Has any one brought up the reload time? Missile Launchers take 10 seconds, while guns take 5 not to mention the instant swap for lens.


Also incorrect.

Lasers swap instantly, projectiles take 10sec only hybribs swap in 5 seconds.



my point is that if it is going to be "balanced" than reload time needs to be considered to, they should all have the same delay time, AND hold the same amount of rounds. Either that or each one of the weapon systems needs to have an advantage to it. Be it range, dps, instantly swapping damage type, or a variety of damage types. It isn't balanced unless everything is

Yeah, make everything the same is much better...

Or realize that 10s reload go with selectable damage, and ammo clip size go with alpha.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#5474 - 2012-10-27 14:05:58 UTC
Louis deGuerre
The Dark Tribe
#5475 - 2012-10-27 15:27:22 UTC
Spc One wrote:

Drake has 37.5% less range.

Drake, ( same fit as tengu with 3 caldari navy bcu's ):

TQ:
DPS: 503 (All level 5 skills, missiles and battlecruiser 5)
Range: 75km (All level 5 skills, missiles and battlecruiser 5)

Duality:
DPS: 476 (All level 5 skills, missiles and battlecruiser 5)
Range: 30km (All level 5 skills, missiles and battlecruiser 5)

...

I've tested out tengu.

Currently on TQ:

690 dps (All level 5 skills, missiles and subs)
113 km range (All level 5 skills, missiles and subs)

Currently on Duality:

654 dps (All level 5 skills, missiles and subs)
46km range (All level 5 skills, missiles and subs)


That takes tengu to super garbage ship.
I personally will not use it anymore or any of missile ships.

More than 50% less range ? really ?


Fozzie : You're using Furies I assume?

SPC : Yes, t-2, furies.
Even now currently on TQ, turret ships are way better then missiles, after the missile nerf, missiles will become totally obsolete.
No one will use them because even now with no changes, they suck so hard ... and after the patch / new expansion even more.[/quote]

Fozzie : You'll notice that using any T1, faction or precision missile the range nerf is more moderate. The plan converts furies into shorter range missiles with a larger damage bonus compared to their T1 variants.

---

Drake 30km range Tengu 46km range for T2 heavy missiles ?
CCP Fozzie, I'd like to know what you're on cause it apparently it is a seriously heavy trip.
This will effectively remove missile ships out of the game except perhaps gate camping HAM Drakes.
Seriously, get back to the drawing board because the shitstorm this will raise will be of epic proportions.
Faora Zod
Don't mess with this DoJo
#5476 - 2012-10-27 15:44:28 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Faora Zod wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Faora Zod wrote:
Has any one brought up the reload time? Missile Launchers take 10 seconds, while guns take 5 not to mention the instant swap for lens.


Also incorrect.

Lasers swap instantly, projectiles take 10sec only hybribs swap in 5 seconds.



my point is that if it is going to be "balanced" than reload time needs to be considered to, they should all have the same delay time, AND hold the same amount of rounds. Either that or each one of the weapon systems needs to have an advantage to it. Be it range, dps, instantly swapping damage type, or a variety of damage types. It isn't balanced unless everything is

Yeah, make everything the same is much better...

Or realize that 10s reload go with selectable damage, and ammo clip size go with alpha.


Missiles and Projectiles have selectable damage like hybrids and lasers? I must have missed the other varieties when i was looking at the 4 i have to pick from.

Also for the balancing purpose you might as well add cap usage to the list, i can't believe that has been left out!
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#5477 - 2012-10-27 16:46:06 UTC
Louis deGuerre wrote:
Drake 30km range Tengu 46km range for T2 heavy missiles ?
CCP Fozzie, I'd like to know what you're on cause it apparently it is a seriously heavy trip.
This will effectively remove missile ships out of the game except perhaps gate camping HAM Drakes.
Seriously, get back to the drawing board because the shitstorm this will raise will be of epic proportions.

Yeah, it's like the OP short range ammo on medLR turrets, OP damage, and OP range too : 9km ! Tracking you said ? what's this ?! You can blap frigates anyway !

Or should HML be compared to large guns maybe ?
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#5478 - 2012-10-27 17:02:37 UTC
Cazador 64 wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Cazador 64 wrote:

These ingame numbers off the test server or are you playing EFT warrior ? because you are way off dude


as far as i can see, cruise's T1 and faction ammo isnt being changed. EFT'ing or not, they should perform as before.

which is like 560dps at 250km with 3BCS or 590dps with 4BCS


Correct and im sitting on 688.5 DPS as a sniper boat in a cnr for incursions with my T2 ammo
with 3BCS tech 2 that is still a nerf of 130dps that ill have to take to continue to fit the role I am currently in.
As T2 ammo can no longer snipe in incursions.



sooo....dont use T2 unless its close range. Roll

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Cazador 64
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5479 - 2012-10-27 17:04:37 UTC
Louis deGuerre wrote:
Spc One wrote:

Drake has 37.5% less range.

Drake, ( same fit as tengu with 3 caldari navy bcu's ):

TQ:
DPS: 503 (All level 5 skills, missiles and battlecruiser 5)
Range: 75km (All level 5 skills, missiles and battlecruiser 5)

Duality:
DPS: 476 (All level 5 skills, missiles and battlecruiser 5)
Range: 30km (All level 5 skills, missiles and battlecruiser 5)

...

I've tested out tengu.

Currently on TQ:

690 dps (All level 5 skills, missiles and subs)
113 km range (All level 5 skills, missiles and subs)

Currently on Duality:

654 dps (All level 5 skills, missiles and subs)
46km range (All level 5 skills, missiles and subs)


That takes tengu to super garbage ship.
I personally will not use it anymore or any of missile ships.

More than 50% less range ? really ?


Fozzie : You're using Furies I assume?

SPC : Yes, t-2, furies.
Even now currently on TQ, turret ships are way better then missiles, after the missile nerf, missiles will become totally obsolete.
No one will use them because even now with no changes, they suck so hard ... and after the patch / new expansion even more.


Fozzie : You'll notice that using any T1, faction or precision missile the range nerf is more moderate. The plan converts furies into shorter range missiles with a larger damage bonus compared to their T1 variants.

---

Drake 30km range Tengu 46km range for T2 heavy missiles ?
CCP Fozzie, I'd like to know what you're on cause it apparently it is a seriously heavy trip.
This will effectively remove missile ships out of the game except perhaps gate camping HAM Drakes.
Seriously, get back to the drawing board because the shitstorm this will raise will be of epic proportions.
[/quote]

The DEVs are very well aware of how bad they are screwing caldari missile users. They play this game for fun too.
There is no way they don't know, its just they don't care, they are taking care of their projectile friends and that's all that matters.

They assume that enough people wont quit EVE because they think you have no other options and you'll fuss a bit but in the end you'll stay and keep feeding them cash.
The only way they might care is if us caldari missile pilots walk away from eve and cancel our subs until we see s Fix.

The DEV posted asking us to try the changes we did they sucked we spoke they didn't reply. Why? For the reason stated Above they will not address concerns they will ignore it and gamble that you stay
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#5480 - 2012-10-27 17:10:55 UTC
missiles are the only weapons that can still deal any damage type with T2 ammo. half range or not, thats one hell of an advantage.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs