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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Cazador 64
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5441 - 2012-10-27 00:37:37 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

I checked it : T2 fit, only a Paladin can outdps a *Raven* at 150km, and it cap itself out rather fastly.

This simply isn't true almost every Turret boat will do the job.
Factor in the Mach or NM and the CNR is not needed
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#5442 - 2012-10-27 00:40:58 UTC
Cazador 64 wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

I checked it : T2 fit, only a Paladin can outdps a *Raven* at 150km, and it cap itself out rather fastly.

This simply isn't true almost every Turret boat will do the job.
Factor in the Mach or NM and the CNR is not needed


Besides, if a Pala can, a Mare can too. Well, I think I will put Bouh where Jorma is. Its just not worth the time.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#5443 - 2012-10-27 00:42:35 UTC
Cazador 64 wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:

i thought they didnt take u anyways.
train rokh?


So spend 4-5 months fixing what ccp broke ?
to get the gun skills to what they need to be to be worth anything its an easy 4 months at least.
I do not understand why this is such a hard concept to grasp every pilot should have a viable option to fly how they want to fly in EVE.
I should not have to retrain new skills just to get back to where I was before the nerf.


this is CCP's game. they can 'break' it if they want. if u dnt like it then just leave already!

why is it such a hard concept to grasp, u can fly how u want, but u have to accept any disadvantages that come with such hardline play. perhaps if u were more flexible u would be able to fly any ship that u still thought was viable, like the mach or nightmare. u shot urself in the foot when u decided 'i will be caldari and missile only, nothing else'.

4 months is nothing in the scale of eve. if ur the kind of person who wants instant gratification i'd suggest u were playing the wrong game.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Cazador 64
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5444 - 2012-10-27 00:47:54 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Cazador 64 wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

I checked it : T2 fit, only a Paladin can outdps a *Raven* at 150km, and it cap itself out rather fastly.

This simply isn't true almost every Turret boat will do the job.
Factor in the Mach or NM and the CNR is not needed


Besides, if a Pala can, a Mare can too. Well, I think I will put Bouh where Jorma is. Its just not worth the time.


Sounds like a plan to me. Either way it still looks like this will be my last month in EVE Unless something drastic happens the CNR sniper is a dead ship for what I used it for.
Lowing the range to 110KM would mean I would need to find a way to boost range up well over 45%
Anything I would use to fix range IE : TE,Rigs ect would just gimp the DPS even more.

When I can currently fit a pretty decent dps sniper cnr (yes i do allot of fleets)
and come after Patch my ship will not have a place in its previous roles they is called a nerf people.
Cazador 64
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5445 - 2012-10-27 00:51:21 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Cazador 64 wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:

i thought they didnt take u anyways.
train rokh?


So spend 4-5 months fixing what ccp broke ?
to get the gun skills to what they need to be to be worth anything its an easy 4 months at least.
I do not understand why this is such a hard concept to grasp every pilot should have a viable option to fly how they want to fly in EVE.
I should not have to retrain new skills just to get back to where I was before the nerf.


this is CCP's game. they can 'break' it if they want. if u dnt like it then just leave already!

why is it such a hard concept to grasp, u can fly how u want, but u have to accept any disadvantages that come with such hardline play. perhaps if u were more flexible u would be able to fly any ship that u still thought was viable, like the mach or nightmare. u shot urself in the foot when u decided 'i will be caldari and missile only, nothing else'.

4 months is nothing in the scale of eve. if ur the kind of person who wants instant gratification i'd suggest u were playing the wrong game.

Your as worthless as the rest of them done with you too
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#5446 - 2012-10-27 00:52:56 UTC
Cazador 64 wrote:

Your as worthless as the rest of them done with you too


cry more. doors thataway -->

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#5447 - 2012-10-27 00:56:33 UTC
Cazador 64 wrote:
Sounds like a plan to me. Either way it still looks like this will be my last month in EVE Unless something drastic happens the CNR sniper is a dead ship for what I used it for.
Lowing the range to 110KM would mean I would need to find a way to boost range up well over 45%
Anything I would use to fix range IE : TE,Rigs ect would just gimp the DPS even more.

When I can currently fit a pretty decent dps sniper cnr (yes i do allot of fleets)
and come after Patch my ship will not have a place in its previous roles they is called a nerf people.

My bad, I missed the Nightmare.
Though, you are not talking about 150km fit if you think even a pirate BS can do a lot more than 500dps at this range. A 4 heatsink+2TE Paladin/Mare does 530dps at 150km. With Caldari Navy scourge, a 3BCS CNR do 600dps at 250km.

You are not saying everything, or you are either bad or dishonnest.
Cazador 64
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5448 - 2012-10-27 01:04:33 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Cazador 64 wrote:

Your as worthless as the rest of them done with you too


cry more. doors thataway -->

**** off more
Cazador 64
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5449 - 2012-10-27 01:05:17 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Cazador 64 wrote:
Sounds like a plan to me. Either way it still looks like this will be my last month in EVE Unless something drastic happens the CNR sniper is a dead ship for what I used it for.
Lowing the range to 110KM would mean I would need to find a way to boost range up well over 45%
Anything I would use to fix range IE : TE,Rigs ect would just gimp the DPS even more.

When I can currently fit a pretty decent dps sniper cnr (yes i do allot of fleets)
and come after Patch my ship will not have a place in its previous roles they is called a nerf people.

My bad, I missed the Nightmare.
Though, you are not talking about 150km fit if you think even a pirate BS can do a lot more than 500dps at this range. A 4 heatsink+2TE Paladin/Mare does 530dps at 150km. With Caldari Navy scourge, a 3BCS CNR do 600dps at 250km.

You are not saying everything, or you are either bad or dishonnest.

These ingame numbers off the test server or are you playing EFT warrior ? because you are way off dude
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#5450 - 2012-10-27 01:07:45 UTC
Two questions remain : will the HML Drake be removed from its first place of 30km fleet BC ? And will the HAM Drake have a place for warp disruptor range engagements ?

My guess is no and yes.

In 30km fleet, no BC will be better : tank, gank, no tracking.

In warp disruptor range engagement, HAM drake will still be one of the heaviest BC (very heavy buffer tank + passive regen) and the freed PG will free the PG rig or PDS, and the GMP skill will allow it to apply full damage on cruisers and above.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#5451 - 2012-10-27 01:09:44 UTC
Cazador 64 wrote:
These ingame numbers off the test server or are you playing EFT warrior ? because you are way off dude

Then enlighten me instead of being rude.

I too can say "I have the only truth, and those who don't trust me are only incompetents."
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#5452 - 2012-10-27 01:19:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Cazador 64 wrote:

These ingame numbers off the test server or are you playing EFT warrior ? because you are way off dude


as far as i can see, cruise's T1 and faction ammo isnt being changed. EFT'ing or not, they should perform as before.

which is like 560dps at 250km with 3BCS or 590dps with 4BCS

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Cazador 64
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5453 - 2012-10-27 02:12:07 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Cazador 64 wrote:

These ingame numbers off the test server or are you playing EFT warrior ? because you are way off dude


as far as i can see, cruise's T1 and faction ammo isnt being changed. EFT'ing or not, they should perform as before.

which is like 560dps at 250km with 3BCS or 590dps with 4BCS


Correct and im sitting on 688.5 DPS as a sniper boat in a cnr for incursions with my T2 ammo
with 3BCS tech 2 that is still a nerf of 130dps that ill have to take to continue to fit the role I am currently in.
As T2 ammo can no longer snipe in incursions.

At this point i'm not even bothering to fight to try to stay in the game.
If i see a fix to were I can stay competitive ill stay in game if not Ill find an other MMO it's pretty simple.
Yes the door is right there and at this point I don't care if I stay or go.

If i can see some compelling numbers to stay ill stay if not i't out. This is not the only MMO I would rather play EVE
But I just happen to be in a position where this current change is going to break the way I play.
The change to Large cruise was supposed to be a buff but in my case it turns out to be a nerf.

As far as the cross training 4-5 months not being a factor it is for me as that off sets other plans I had that didn't include cross training at this time. And being off set by 4-5 months on two accounts is a pretty big deal means By next may ill be back on my feet ? I just don't see its worth it. And this has nothing to do even with HML is about Cruise so I do not see a reason for the range nerf. I mean you guys are worried about PVP right well we all know cruise will not and prob never will effect PVP.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5454 - 2012-10-27 03:49:24 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
You can outrun/outrange missiles too. And you can outrun a missile in air, you never can do that with turrets.


Try hitting Dramiel @ 9km with 1400s...
Maggeridon Thoraz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#5455 - 2012-10-27 04:24:24 UTC
sorry for not going thru 273 pages and find out if the inderdictors yet have mentioned.
i just took a look into teh table and rocktes get as well a range nerf, how will that affect the 2 inderdictors that are mostly fitted with rockets ? will you adjust the boni on these ships ?
quasarabyss
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5456 - 2012-10-27 04:58:58 UTC  |  Edited by: quasarabyss
Why would you invest in training for missiles, ever, after this patch?

1. Can you *prove* that HML's are overpowered?
Against what ship x range x weapon? Is there a spreadsheet showing this?
A couple of factors work against missiles already;
a) the training for missiles does not assist with other weapon types, whereas the base skills in gunnery apply across multiple Hybrid weps/lazers/Projectiles.
b) DPS comparisons - the missile boat clearly loses it's 5,10 or 15 seconds initially travelling that 500-150km. The other sniper ships apply damage instantly.
c) getting effective dps from a drake or raven - I found that even with damage, rigor and catalyst rigs, the Drake and Raven dps is improved but still not fantastic. A CNR is a little better (ofc) but as soon as you rig it for improved *applied* dps there goes your rig slots. And I still like a couple TP's on there whenever possible.

As my initial character was Caldari I went with Missiles training initally, and I wish I could get those skill points back every time I log in to the game.
Will new players be advised 'missiles are the least productive weapon type' when starting to plan an Eve character? After all, Missiles are already low dps at close range (I know, Tengu might be an exception), so if they become less effective at medium-long range then the question is: why would you invest in training for missiles, ever?

Once the very few advantages of missiles are gone, they will become a redundant item/skill/weapon of the game. Kind of like defender missiles are currently.

2. "Tracking mod and disruptor changes moved out of this release until the first set of changes settles a bit"
Perhaps Tracking mods and disruptors should not apply to missiles at all, since the missile bay does not 'track' as such.
You are making this 'intuitive for new players' remember?
... and, since missiles have on-board guidance, wouldn't a TD work on each individual missile?

3. Balancing the Game.
Could you please outline what a 'Balanced' version of Eve looks like? What is the plan here, what are you and CCP actually aiming for ... or is it a litle bit here, a little bit there approach?
If there is no such plan for a 'balanced' Eve, then it makes the missile changes random and arbitrary and poorly planned, in whatever form they take.
If there's a plan let's see it.

4. Tengu's
The Caldari have one ship that is clearly superior, but are way behind everywhere else. And besides, the thing still looks like a drake!

5. If missiles were so good....
The incursion runners would be using them.

In Eve and in RL there is always something stronger and weaker. Once you remove the 'overpowered' stuff from the game -tengus cruise missiles NM's mach's lazors hybrids projectiles vindi's rokh et al - there will still be something stronger and something weaker.
IMO, overpowered ships are a player's reward for investing time and ISK.

Summary:
I don't mind changes, but tell me the plan so I can train for the new best deal.

(Insert witticism here)
Cazador 64
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5457 - 2012-10-27 05:20:10 UTC
quasarabyss wrote:
Why would you invest in training for missiles, ever, after this patch?

1. Can you *prove* that HML's are overpowered?
Against what ship x range x weapon? Is there a spreadsheet showing this?
A couple of factors work against missiles already;
a) the training for missiles does not assist with other weapon types, whereas the base skills in gunnery apply across multiple Hybrid weps/lazers/Projectiles.
b) DPS comparisons - the missile boat clearly loses it's 5,10 or 15 seconds initially travelling that 500-150km. The other sniper ships apply damage instantly.
c) getting effective dps from a drake or raven - I found that even with damage, rigor and catalyst rigs, the Drake and Raven dps is improved but still not fantastic. A CNR is a little better (ofc) but as soon as you rig it for improved *applied* dps there goes your rig slots. And I still like a couple TP's on there whenever possible.

As my initial character was Caldari I went with Missiles training initally, and I wish I could get those skill points back every time I log in to the game.
Will new players be advised 'missiles are the least productive weapon type' when starting to plan an Eve character? After all, Missiles are already low dps at close range (I know, Tengu might be an exception), so if they become less effective at medium-long range then the question is: why would you invest in training for missiles, ever?

Once the very few advantages of missiles are gone, they will become a redundant item/skill/weapon of the game. Kind of like defender missiles are currently.

2. "Tracking mod and disruptor changes moved out of this release until the first set of changes settles a bit"
Perhaps Tracking mods and disruptors should not apply to missiles at all, since the missile bay does not 'track' as such.
You are making this 'intuitive for new players' remember?
... and, since missiles have on-board guidance, wouldn't a TD work on each individual missile?

3. Balancing the Game.
Could you please outline what a 'Balanced' version of Eve looks like? What is the plan here, what are you and CCP actually aiming for ... or is it a litle bit here, a little bit there approach?
If there is no such plan for a 'balanced' Eve, then it makes the missile changes random and arbitrary and poorly planned, in whatever form they take.
If there's a plan let's see it.

4. Tengu's
The Caldari have one ship that is clearly superior, but are way behind everywhere else. And besides, the thing still looks like a drake!

5. If missiles were so good....
The incursion runners would be using them.

In Eve and in RL there is always something stronger and weaker. Once you remove the 'overpowered' stuff from the game -tengus cruise missiles NM's mach's lazors hybrids projectiles vindi's rokh et al - there will still be something stronger and something weaker.
IMO, overpowered ships are a player's reward for investing time and ISK.

Summary:
I don't mind changes, but tell me the plan so I can train for the new best deal.


I have come to find out You will not get any rational explanation for this nerf.
You will get some arbitrary numbers thrown at you that have not actually been tested in game and given some hypothetical situations based on theorycrafting and spreadsheets.
Or just the well its your fault for training missiles you should have know they were garbage but yet some how overpowered and needed to be nerfed so cross train projectiles.

The fact of the matter is there is no reason to train into missiles ever guns do it all better that if why you do not see the missiles boats in the high end incursion fleets even though missiles are the king on pve but yet worse then anything else out there. I agree with your post 100% if you trained guns you are lacking there is no reason to train missiles and noone would ever say hey you should have trained missiles. But if you trained missiles you are lacking in every aspect possible and get told well you should have diversified.
Its all a bunch of **** CCP pulled this nerf out of their asses to appease the cry babies because **** all if projectiles don't rule every aspect of pvp missiles can not be on the top of that list.
Opertone
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5458 - 2012-10-27 05:49:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Opertone
You folks miss the point. You've got to be one of Caldari to understand

Reason 1: Caldari population is the highest of all. Is it because of good looks, nice intro racial decription or some other aesthetics. Caldari is number one race.

Reason 2: Caldari ships mostly use missiles. Missiles are ideal training path that fits PVE and money making play style. For a long time missiles were the only way to go, because long range hybrids and optimal bonuses were too weak. Most pilots have missiles trained, with that in mind they are reluctant to waste training time on alternate weapon system, which may be used on a rare occasion. This is why 90% Caldari stick to missiles when they pilot caldari vessels.

Number one race multiplied by 90% missile users = you get high number of kills by missiles.

Reason 3: Before, missiles sucked at PvP too, Drake was carebears number one choice, everybody laughed at Caldari. Now that missiles were made viable option, raging caldari take their revenge. They bring the ships they like and fight the way they want to. Without the need to cross train to ever be invited to fleet.

Caldari ships are not close range and tackle type - there is no room for tackle and tank, thus they prefer DPS support role and Tank. Longer range missiles are better for longer range bombardment. For HACs, Cruisers and BCs Medium size leaves one option - Heavy Missile Launcher.

Caldari can not really go close range too well. LoL tanking, 0% EM hole, number 1 primary, heaviest incoming damage up close. This lies within the SHIP design, slot layout, etc. Caldari remain support craft.

Also Caldari BS fleet made of Raven = lol, best use for POS bash, or stupid single carrier blowing. They do not fit into 'all on one primary' doctrine of FLEET BS. As the target gets switched and dead by means of alpha, missiles have not reached anywhere yet. Bring enough raven and enemy targets will start to warp off before the volley hits them.

This post sums up why the 'best' work with DCM inc.

WARP DRIVE makes eve boring

really - add warping align time 300% on gun aggression and eve becomes great again
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5459 - 2012-10-27 06:19:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Cazador 64 wrote:
Or just the well its your fault for training missiles you should have know they were garbage but yet some how overpowered and needed to be nerfed so cross train projectiles.


Trolling much?

Cross training and dedicating training time to projectiles would be bad idea now since, you know, they are next on the list.

Even small things like tweaking stats of TE would have major hit to projectile performance.

Why train missiles after this patch? HAMs/rockets. We have to see what happens to torps, but we have to wait a bit longer. Heavy missiles are still a bit better than long range turrets so no worries there.
Sigras
Conglomo
#5460 - 2012-10-27 07:07:33 UTC
Opertone wrote:
You folks miss the point. You've got to be one of Caldari to understand

Reason 1: Caldari population is the highest of all. Is it because of good looks, nice intro racial decription or some other aesthetics. Caldari is number one race.

Reason 2: Caldari ships mostly use missiles. Missiles are ideal training path that fits PVE and money making play style. For a long time missiles were the only way to go, because long range hybrids and optimal bonuses were too weak. Most pilots have missiles trained, with that in mind they are reluctant to waste training time on alternate weapon system, which may be used on a rare occasion. This is why 90% Caldari stick to missiles when they pilot caldari vessels.

Number one race multiplied by 90% missile users = you get high number of kills by missiles.

You're operating under the gross assumption that
#1. Caldari pilots train primarily for caldari ships
#2. People never cross train

Both of these assumptions are unspeakably moronic because both of them are demonstrably untrue.

Opertone wrote:
Reason 3: Before, missiles sucked at PvP too, Drake was carebears number one choice, everybody laughed at Caldari. Now that missiles were made viable option, raging caldari take their revenge. They bring the ships they like and fight the way they want to. Without the need to cross train to ever be invited to fleet.

IIRC there havent been any major missile changes since they changed the missile damage formula back in 2008

Missiles sucked in PvP because of lag, lag would either cause the missiles to do no damage or cause the node to crash because of increased load etc etc etc.

Only after they basically fixed lag with TiDi did missiles start to become a problem because now theyre on equal footing with guns (lag wise) and theyre clearly a superior platform.

Opertone wrote:
Caldari ships are not close range and tackle type - there is no room for tackle and tank, thus they prefer DPS support role and Tank. Longer range missiles are better for longer range bombardment. For HACs, Cruisers and BCs Medium size leaves one option - Heavy Missile Launcher.

The Harpy, Hawk, Hookbill, and Moa would all like a word with you.

Opertone wrote:
Caldari can not really go close range too well. LoL tanking, 0% EM hole, number 1 primary, heaviest incoming damage up close. This lies within the SHIP design, slot layout, etc. Caldari remain support craft.

First off, allow me to introduce you to a little module I like to call "EM Ward Field II" it has a way of fixing that EM hole problem you mentioned. Just like the armor tankers have to fix that Explosive hole problem . . . Roll

Secondly, I have no idea what you mean by them taking the most damage up close or being primary . . . they take no more damage than anyone else up close, and usually dont get primaried over anyone else because of their race . . .

Try flying a gallente ship that is supposed to armor tank, and still somehow cram damage mods and tracking enhancers on, and is slower because of the armor tank, and has no 5% resist bonus then come back and whine to me . . . I might take you more seriously.