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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Cazador 64
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5381 - 2012-10-26 20:54:12 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
I understand very well. And I said if you once and for all stay away from here as soon as I post with my alt I might really be tempted to do it. You said you wont, so wont I :) and honestly, I could care less about what *you* believe. You can believe in what you want. There are enough people here who seem to feel like I might have a point in what I am posting about and who dont think I have no credibility.

I will not continue this. Just not worth the time.

You are avoiding the debate. You are fleeing. You are basicaly saying "I don't know how to counter your arguments nor how to convince you, so I use a falacious argument against your person to disqualify you from talking, and hence don't have to bother with the smart things you are saying."


fallacious* basically*

Anyways I dont see it this way at all
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#5382 - 2012-10-26 20:57:36 UTC
Cazador 64 wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
I understand very well. And I said if you once and for all stay away from here as soon as I post with my alt I might really be tempted to do it. You said you wont, so wont I :) and honestly, I could care less about what *you* believe. You can believe in what you want. There are enough people here who seem to feel like I might have a point in what I am posting about and who dont think I have no credibility.

I will not continue this. Just not worth the time.

You are avoiding the debate. You are fleeing. You are basicaly saying "I don't know how to counter your arguments nor how to convince you, so I use a falacious argument against your person to disqualify you from talking, and hence don't have to bother with the smart things you are saying."


fallacious* basically*

Anyways I dont see it this way at all


Nor do others. :)
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#5383 - 2012-10-26 21:06:28 UTC
I'm must be wrong then, if Noemi and Cazador, holder of truth, said so !
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#5384 - 2012-10-26 21:11:59 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
I'm must be wrong then, if Noemi and Cazador, holder of truth, said so !


We are not the only ones here who dont agree with you in all points or disagree in most.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#5385 - 2012-10-26 21:15:36 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
I'm must be wrong then, if Noemi and Cazador, holder of truth, said so !


We are not the only ones here who dont agree with you in all points or disagree in most.

Indeed, though you don't seem to know what is an argumentation, or you would know that discrediting the interlocutor don't discredit its arguments.
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#5386 - 2012-10-26 21:22:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Spc One
It is fact that missile ships will be junk after this expansion and that's it.
No matter how much you whine or complain or support this change.

I will personally not use any missile ships anymore and yes drone ships are also obsolete because of new AI.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5387 - 2012-10-26 21:24:09 UTC
Spc One wrote:
It is fact that missile ships will be junk after this expansion and that's it.

How would a drake be any less useful in the situations it sees the most use in now?
serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#5388 - 2012-10-26 21:29:40 UTC  |  Edited by: serras bang
ok a fter testing on duality all im gonna say is missles are stupid now and after a conflab getting figures not just from myself but others i can safely say this however construction time on my 2 cents on how missles should work and actualy be balanced.


for this there is 2 simple things close range and long range close range consists of rockets hams and torps long range is lights,heavy and criuse. those are then broken down further into 4 different sub catagorys t1, faction, presicion and dmg.

now my throughts and this is gonne be broad stroke but here gose.

T1: a balance between dps and range i aint going into this as this is the base of everything else.

faction: higher dmg than t1 10% but higher explosive radius 5% distance same as t1

High dmg: 35% more ddmg than t1's 65 - 70% increase in explosive radius and 25% less distance than t1

presiction ammo( javlin also): less sig radius 5 - 10%, less dmg than t1 10 - 15% and a 20 - 25% increase in distance.

i know this is basic but tbh im putting this up with the descovery of t2 javlin hams fireing at 38k (further than t1) and hml furys only going to 41km range something wrong here i think ?

anyways what you think as i think this would give a better selection of what to use and when to use then and bring it in line with guns a lot more as that is what fozzie is trying to do and wont bugger up differance between t1, t2 and more with long and short range ammo.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#5389 - 2012-10-26 21:32:48 UTC
Spc One wrote:
It is fact that missile ships will be junk after this expansion and that's it.
No matter how much you whine or complain or support this change.

I will personally not use any missile ships anymore and yes drone ships are also obsolete because of new AI.

This is an empty quoting, with absolutly no argument, only stated beliefs.

Though you have an indication on the habbits of this player with the reference to NPC AI : he is concerned by pve.
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#5390 - 2012-10-26 21:36:33 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Spc One wrote:
It is fact that missile ships will be junk after this expansion and that's it.

How would a drake be any less useful in the situations it sees the most use in now?

Less dps and less range.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5391 - 2012-10-26 21:39:46 UTC
Spc One wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Spc One wrote:
It is fact that missile ships will be junk after this expansion and that's it.

How would a drake be any less useful in the situations it sees the most use in now?

Less dps and less range.

Range is still good, and DPS is comparable to what I get with other med systems and their midrange ammo variants (with less range). You've stated the fact of the situation, yes, but not a reason to use a same class equivalent ship with another weapons system.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#5392 - 2012-10-26 21:45:25 UTC
Spc One wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Spc One wrote:
It is fact that missile ships will be junk after this expansion and that's it.

How would a drake be any less useful in the situations it sees the most use in now?

Less dps and less range.

Still enough compared to other medium long range weapons, and you can rig it ; and it earn some missile velocity, better for long range fights ; and HAM.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#5393 - 2012-10-26 21:52:45 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
I'm must be wrong then, if Noemi and Cazador, holder of truth, said so !


We are not the only ones here who dont agree with you in all points or disagree in most.

Indeed, though you don't seem to know what is an argumentation, or you would know that discrediting the interlocutor don't discredit its arguments.


I dont need to discredit your so called arguments Bouh. I showed you with numbers how you were wrong when you wanted numbers. Then you said "uh oh, nevermind, those numbers dont matter" .. I ripped all this BS apart you and others spread about the so called OP HML. HML are fine in some things and not so good in others. If HML/Drake were so OP like you claim, then Eve would be Drake/HML only. Eve-kill says Projectiles are number 1 weapons, with more kills than the other 3 together. Doesnt really fit to your picture, does it? Maybe its because your picture is wrong. And because you are wrong. Really, I dont need to discredit you or your arguments. Its been all done, and its been all said. Yours and others lies wont get true facts if you just repeat them again and again. :-)
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5394 - 2012-10-26 22:07:01 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
I'm must be wrong then, if Noemi and Cazador, holder of truth, said so !


We are not the only ones here who dont agree with you in all points or disagree in most.

Indeed, though you don't seem to know what is an argumentation, or you would know that discrediting the interlocutor don't discredit its arguments.


I dont need to discredit your so called arguments Bouh. I showed you with numbers how you were wrong when you wanted numbers. Then you said "uh oh, nevermind, those numbers dont matter" .. I ripped all this BS apart you and others spread about the so called OP HML. HML are fine in some things and not so good in others. If HML/Drake were so OP like you claim, then Eve would be Drake/HML only. Eve-kill says Projectiles are number 1 weapons, with more kills than the other 3 together. Doesnt really fit to your picture, does it? Maybe its because your picture is wrong. And because you are wrong. Really, I dont need to discredit you or your arguments. Its been all done, and its been all said. Yours and others lies wont get true facts if you just repeat them again and again. :-)

Looking at the top 20 weapons:
Top 20 lists HML II as the top overall weapon for kills.
The only other weapon type of the same class listed, 720 atrillery, has about a quarter of the kills.
HML is clearly not balanced with it's peers.
Kenshi Hanshin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#5395 - 2012-10-26 22:26:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenshi Hanshin
Spc One wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:

How is that different from T2 short range ammo for turrets?

Turrets can't be smartbombed or destroyed with defenders.
Also turrets do instant damage, while missiles have to fly to target first to apply damage.
basically missiles can be turned off if enemy wants it.


You are also forgetting or not mentioning the biggest disadvantage of missiles. You have a cycle time plus the flight time of the missiles to the target. The end result is a true cycle time approximately twice that of the turret counterparts. That alone I would argue balances missiles. Otherwise, missiles will deal less damage than Turrets over time (dps).

I like using missiles and I don't have an issue with tracking disruption being applied. However, I do have an issue with a range and damage nerf. When turrets already have an advantage in those areas. For the following reasons:

1) Turrets have no travel time for shots. Thus their true cycle time is much lower than missiles (~2x faster)
a) Missiles have the launcher cycle time + missile travel time

2) Turrets have a greater default range than missiles. Take a look at the absurd effective ranges for autocannons & pulse-lasers. Same with Artillery and railguns too...
a) Missiles can only get bonuses to ROF and damage via ballistic control systems (minor at that).
b) Turret's range and tracking speed can recieve significant boosts from tracking computers and tracking enhancers.

3) Turrets are immune to any form of interception once fired.
a) Missiles can be intercepted or detroyed by Defender missiles or smartbombs
b) Only way to stop turrets is to break the lock, use turret disruption and/or cap-warfare

4) Projectile weapons are the most OP weapons in the game wrt T2 and T1 variants. In addition can deal all damage types.

I am gonna add to this later...
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#5396 - 2012-10-26 22:31:28 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
I dont need to discredit your so called arguments Bouh. I showed you with numbers how you were wrong when you wanted numbers. Then you said "uh oh, nevermind, those numbers dont matter" .. I ripped all this BS apart you and others spread about the so called OP HML. HML are fine in some things and not so good in others. If HML/Drake were so OP like you claim, then Eve would be Drake/HML only. Eve-kill says Projectiles are number 1 weapons, with more kills than the other 3 together. Doesnt really fit to your picture, does it? Maybe its because your picture is wrong. And because you are wrong. Really, I dont need to discredit you or your arguments. Its been all done, and its been all said. Yours and others lies wont get true facts if you just repeat them again and again. :-)

Your numbers was : a cane can defeat a drake, hence HML are not OP.

Oh, and these BC outpsing the drake at 25km by around 10% (never mind the drake have 50% more dps at long range).

And then, you admit that HML were the best medium long range weapon, and supported it because other missiles are bad, so they deserve to have one best weapon somewhere.

And of course there was the interlude with skills, the one where we explore how missiles are different from turrets, the one where we smacktalk, the one where we have to remind that pve don't lead weapon balance, the one with statistics as a proof, the one where we reming that caldari are not only missiles, and the one where we look for pvp alts. I must be missing some of them, but it's useless for the debate anyway.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#5397 - 2012-10-26 22:33:08 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
I dont need to discredit your so called arguments Bouh. I showed you with numbers how you were wrong when you wanted numbers. Then you said "uh oh, nevermind, those numbers dont matter" .. I ripped all this BS apart you and others spread about the so called OP HML. HML are fine in some things and not so good in others. If HML/Drake were so OP like you claim, then Eve would be Drake/HML only. Eve-kill says Projectiles are number 1 weapons, with more kills than the other 3 together. Doesnt really fit to your picture, does it? Maybe its because your picture is wrong. And because you are wrong. Really, I dont need to discredit you or your arguments. Its been all done, and its been all said. Yours and others lies wont get true facts if you just repeat them again and again. :-)

EVE kills says HML are number one weapon.

You cannot compare ONE weapon with SIX other weapons. Your ship can only have one or two weapon system at a time, unless very bad fit.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#5398 - 2012-10-26 22:40:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Kenshi Hanshin wrote:

1) Turrets have no travel time for shots. Thus their true cycle time is much lower than missiles (~2x faster)
a) Missiles have the launcher cycle time + missile travel time

Travel time count only once. Then it's only cycle time, which may be low, but compensated by the second best alpha, after arties (which cycles slower)
Quote:

2) Turrets have a greater default range than missiles. Take a look at the absurd effective ranges for autocannons & pulse-lasers.

1) falloff != optimal range
2) HML are a medium size long range weapon, autocanon and pulse are not.
3) HML hit way farther than those two, unless you are considering large pulse and A/C.
Quote:

3) Turrets are immune to any form of interception once fired.
a) Missiles can be intercepted or detroyed by Defender missiles or smartbombs
b) Only way to stop turrets is to break the lock, use turret disruption and/or cap-warfare

Let me rephrase a) : Only way to stop missiles from hitting you is defender missiles (which are brocken) or smartbomb (which require at least one high slot and devoure your cap).
You forgot "outtrack or outrange them" in b).
Quote:

4) Projectile weapons are the most OP weapons in the game wrt T2 and T1 variants. In addition can deal all damage types.

One OP system system is not a reason for another one to be OP. If you are concerned about projectile OPness, whine to nerf projectile turrets, not to leave HML OP.

All these explanations have already been done.

PS : a lie is saying something wrong while knowing it's wrong.
What you are doing is defamation.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5399 - 2012-10-26 22:42:12 UTC
Kenshi Hanshin wrote:
Spc One wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:

How is that different from T2 short range ammo for turrets?

Turrets can't be smartbombed or destroyed with defenders.
Also turrets do instant damage, while missiles have to fly to target first to apply damage.
basically missiles can be turned off if enemy wants it.


You are also forgetting or not mentioning the biggest disadvantage of missiles. You have a cycle time plus the flight time of the missiles to the target. The end result is a true cycle time approximately twice that of the turret counterparts. That alone I would argue balances missiles. Otherwise, missiles will deal less damage than Turrets over time (dps).

I like using missiles and I don't have an issue with tracking disruption being applied. However, I do have an issue with a range and damage nerf. When turrets already have an advantage in those areas. For the following reasons:

1) Turrets have no travel time for shots. Thus their true cycle time is much lower than missiles (~2x faster)
a) Missiles have the launcher cycle time + missile travel time
2) Turrets have a greater default range than missiles. Take a look at the absurd effective ranges for autocannons & pulse-lasers.
3) Turrets are immune to any form of interception once fired.
a) Missiles can be intercepted or detroyed by Defender missiles or smartbombs
b) Only way to stop turrets is to break the lock, use turret disruption and/or cap-warfare
4) Projectile weapons are the most OP weapons in the game wrt T2 and T1 variants. In addition can deal all damage types.

I am gonna add to this later...

1) Missile travel time does not increase cycle time, it just imposes a delay between cycle completion and damage application. this is a one time cost when considering a single target as hits will occur at the same rate as the cycle time, not accounting for movement as Doppler effect can increase or decrease the rate of hits compared to cycle time.

2) Missiles have greater skill based advantages for range than turrets. Both skills provide a greater percentage boost as well as apply to the entire flight time allowing them to be multiplicative compliments of each other whereas turret skills affect optimal or falloff separately. Also missiles suffer no falloff degradation to damage.

3) Valid, but not widely used as those measures are largely ineffective and require certainty of enemy composition to be worth fitting over alternatives.

4) Maybe, but even in the midrage LR weapon group HML has more kills than Artillery in the top 20
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#5400 - 2012-10-26 22:44:15 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
I'm must be wrong then, if Noemi and Cazador, holder of truth, said so !


We are not the only ones here who dont agree with you in all points or disagree in most.

Indeed, though you don't seem to know what is an argumentation, or you would know that discrediting the interlocutor don't discredit its arguments.


I dont need to discredit your so called arguments Bouh. I showed you with numbers how you were wrong when you wanted numbers. Then you said "uh oh, nevermind, those numbers dont matter" .. I ripped all this BS apart you and others spread about the so called OP HML. HML are fine in some things and not so good in others. If HML/Drake were so OP like you claim, then Eve would be Drake/HML only. Eve-kill says Projectiles are number 1 weapons, with more kills than the other 3 together. Doesnt really fit to your picture, does it? Maybe its because your picture is wrong. And because you are wrong. Really, I dont need to discredit you or your arguments. Its been all done, and its been all said. Yours and others lies wont get true facts if you just repeat them again and again. :-)

Looking at the top 20 weapons:
Top 20 lists HML II as the top overall weapon for kills.
The only other weapon type of the same class listed, 720 atrillery, has about a quarter of the kills.
HML is clearly not balanced with it's peers.


Its also the only *missile* system which will be used in PvP by Caldari medium or large hulls. The Torps in that list are bombers (meta 4 ..) and Cruises and HAMs are not there. So yes, there are many HMLs used, but not because they rock so much but because they are the only option which does not suck for Caldari missile PvP above frig size.

Projectiles kills are more than missiles (#2) + hybrids + lasers together! So what is out of balance? Missiles? Thats the same logic which was used by Mr. George W. Bush when he invaded Iraq ...