Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Sorry to say so, but there you are wrong. Just take a look at that spreadsheet linked on page one, you will see the
comparison.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtfS55wysRHHdGQzQjBoeVRSUFRQVjF3QV84S1d2SFE#gid=0



All my opinion, ofc: for PvE they are ok. For PvP they are not atm. I still hope they will have a value sometime.



I agree with you here, have also the skills in ships which I dont use too much (Gallente in this char ;) ), simply because there is not so much left to do. When you said you crosstrained for Caldari for PvE one could get the impression though you dont like Caldaris PvP ability too much ;)




I dont want to get into whats standing there or not. I am referring to the linked spreadsheet (which was posted by Fozzie). Many things dont really get clear with the text of the OP, for example the part with Furies damage bonus buff was something many people completely misunderstood :) so I just stick with that spreadsheet, the numbers seem to be a bit easier to compare :)

Well, the spreadsheet could be in error, or the op not clear on the matter. I guess that is worth an answer from Fozzie.

Regardless, that is a spreadsheet of base stats. With two potential 50% skills affecting range, that means that range should be doubled for max skills, which would put it at 27,950m. When the TC/TE affect gets introduced there will be a benefit and it could very well make it worth using them. And of course there are rigs already, which will make them worth more in the consideration v tanking rigs.

These changes aren't happening in a vacuum. I have always thought the tanking abilities were the real problem with Drakes. These new forced fittings tradeoffs against tanking mods and rigs may ironically end up salvaging the resist bonus on the Drake. Fozzie already hinted that may be the case. We don't yet have any direct post on BC changes and probably won't til some time in the Spring of '13 I would guess.

I would be satisfied if these missile and mod changes force the fittings choices that end the op tanking of Drakes. Resist bonuses have a place. Amarr uses them too. But Amarr has always faced forced fitting choices since their weapons are so grid thristy or their cpu is so limited, and the damage mods directly conflict with the armor tanking mods. That this may finally happen with Caldari shield tanks is only appropriate in balancing.

HML will always be the best at long range. They only wont be better than cruise missiles.

And you don't balance weapons against pve, you balance the NPC against the different weapons. That have the advantage of not screwing pvp.

About the ammo for missiles with different range and damages, that is a bad idea because that would make missiles bad turrets. There is already a short range high damage ammo, and if anything about short damage of HML have to be done, it's the place to do it. You cannot make missiles as powerful as they are at long range (and even as they will be) and allow them to be as strong as they currently are at short range (almost as powerful than turret ). That would also remove the point of HAM.

i seriously doubt this. HML's still do more dps out to longer ranges and turrets struggle to track other medium ships closer than 20km, even with fast tracking ammo. ur targets would need to be mindlessly pressing 'approach' and burning with mwd's.

ill accept the HML nerf is too big if more caldari pilots use medium rails than HML's after this goes live.




i think u mean implied



over what? a CNR? i should think so!
there is no missile pirate faction ship with which to compare to the mach or nightmare.
incursions are filled with low sig ships that can at least be vindi webbed for turrets. the nature of incursions are kinda prejudiced against missiles, so there is that.
but, as someone else has mentioned, weapon balance should not be centered around pve.

As I said, post change, this isn't the case, hybrids can reach *much* further, if one is so inclined to EFT one up.

I doubt there will be much reduction of HML use, the dynamic has not changed enough and snipers are still all but worthless. There's just no percentage in being able to hit much passed HML range compared to the sacrifices.

You do it well Morrigan, but some turret fetish guys here will not listen, whatever you tell them :) I agree with you, the problem lies within the different characteristics. But hard to tell those people who never used medium or large missiles in their entire Eve career ...

I hope you dont get me wrong, I understand your anger. And especially the part with the missile support skills, which are simply useless if one feels like crosstraining into one of the 3 turret systems, where we do find atm the best performance overall, but esp. also in highend PvE.

But Eve is not meant to be balanced around PvE. It would just not work, if they did. They could maybe change some of the PvE content so its closer to PvP, but still it would be hard to balance the game for both PvE and PvP. And one has to admit Caldari have an easier way from start in PvE. Which does not mean they are best, they are just best with low SP. But with a full trained char a Machariel or Vargur or the like is so much better than anything Caldari have, so I really feel with all those who think thats wrong.

Still we have to face it, CCP wont change anything just because of PvE.

Best regards.

I just posted the numbers from the PDF file. And you are correct, I am posting the base numbers. Earlier in the thread I posted some numbers at level five -- based on my own math -- but I am too lazy to bother with that now. If I recall, based on my math, level 5 will give you a 6900m/sec missile velocity. With a 3.5 second flight time you are looking at a maximum missile travel distance of 24km. However, you cannot ignore acceleration (currently unknown) and target movement. This later varies, obviously, but this is more significant than you might think -- against a fast mover, the missile will immediately assume a pursuit course, and while it is always attempting to "cut the corner," over the course of it's 3.5 second flight time a fast target will have potentially travelled as much as 20km (at 5700m/sec). Obviously, due to cutting the corner, the missile will not travel that same added distance, but you can certainly see the effective range reduction.

It is certainly a safe bet to assume that you will NOT hit an orbitting fast target at long point range. You will, however, hit anything at any velocity within scramble range, as even the fastest ships cannot hold that speed and that orbot. Further, remember that the new and "improved" precision missiles are heavily nerfed, and no more capable of hitting small and fast targets than current T1 Heavies are today. So... within scram range your precisions will hit them, but they won't hurt them. Whether people will bother with them remains to be seen, but I suspect not. The engagement parameters are too limited.




Respectfully, painters are already incredibly powerful. Most people in eve don't understand how their guns and weapons work, let alone the impact painters have on every aspect of weapon performance. So much so, that CCP could probably double their effect and most folks still wouldn't use them.




Exactly. Light Missiles are going to be nice after these changes. I think. Bit on the low side for DPS, maybe, but they are an odd weapon -- falling somewhere in between traditional medium and light weapons on the traditional scale. This obviously makes them tricky to balance.

In any case, these changes are coming. People will adapt as they always do. Tactics will change. Drakes will remain situationally useful, and the Caldari missile pilots will have to get by with that. They still wont have a working HAC, Command Ship, or Missile BS, and perhaps they never will, but that's just the way it goes.

no, it would be more obvious, easier and more fair to change the incursion rats...lol



u can still use missiles after the patch. maybe if u didnt put every sp u had into missiles and branched out a bit u wouldnt be so hurt by this nerf. it wont take long at all to skill into T2 medium rails and ur tengu has subsystems that support rail fits. all is not lost. but lets face it, the reason ppl are so attached to missiles is because they thought they could get a weapons system that did everything with a minimal sp investment and they know rails are no where near as good.



this isnt an imbalancing, its actually the balancing. tengu's with powercore multipliers have plenty of grid to fit rails. the fact that they can still use 100mn AB's whilst still using rails shows they could probably lose some grid.
If HML's are on par with other weapon systems then rail tengu's will become the fashion after this nerf. it doesnt take long to skill to T2 rails.

Is version 2.0 the final changes , or rather, "most recent version"?

The only reason I ask, was that there was more discussion post Version 2.0. So I wasn't sure what if anything got changed after that.