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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#5161 - 2012-10-24 10:44:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
BTW, Caldari are ALREADY on TOP for long range damage dealing, either with HML on medium hull or with everything they have on large hull.


I'm not convinced the large hull situation you describe is entirely accurate.

They are almost certainly the quickest and easiest to be moderately successful with, but that's not really the same.



As I said, I believe the reason missiles are hard to balance is because range/DPS is dictated not by ammo, but by hardpoint. Every other weapon DPS/range chart is a bell(ish) curve. Missiles are uniform then zero. Yes, there are short/long range turrets too, but much of their reach/power is dictated by ammo. This enforces the trade off which is hard to overcome/address balance against compared to missiles.

I mentioned earlier it's possible to get a long range turret platform extremely close to a short range HAM drakes damage whilst maintaining a massively longer range. Yes, the boat is only close in DPS at short ranges, however beyond the hard end point of the HAM it does 0 dps. This is possible because of ammo variations available to the gun platform to extend its range at a cost of DPS or vice versa. Comparing that turret ship to the "long range" HML drake, it kills it in terms of both DPS and range.

Allowing different missiles to have different profiles would make things a lot easier to balance, perhaps easier is the wrong phrase - it would allow much more flexibility in terms of fine tuning the systems.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#5162 - 2012-10-24 10:47:17 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

You are asking for missiles to become turrets. This is stupid.


I dont. I said before I am fine with the fact they are different. As long as they are not inferior in everything in PvP, that is. Atm they are not inferior in everything, so for me they are ok. If you feel they are OP, feel free to crosstrain to Caldari and missiles. :-)

Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Drones don't share the skill tree with turrets, and that never was a problem. Gallente pilots always had and still *have to* skill for BOTH drones AND hybrids to use their ships.


Every one has to skill drones up to medium combat tech II if he wants to be competitive. Caldari have no use for Heavy and Sentry (except in Gurista ships), thats correct. But nothing different in the need for drone skills for anyone.

Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Infact, Caldari may be the ONLY race who can use effectively half it's ships with only one weapon system (amarr drone bays make them less good than caldari for this).


A Sentry-Dominix or Ishtar or a Myrm might want to have a word with you.

Bouh Revetoile wrote:


Start by defining inferior vs superior. Cruise Missiles DO are superior to turrets at long range.


Go and troll somewhere else, really. :) Enough proof found for my assumption you are nothing than a troll.

Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Skill for hybrids, and let these missiles be balanced. Missiles are NOT turrets, they will NEVER EVER be exactly like turrets, that would be the death of this game.


How so? How would it be the death of this game if missiles would perform like turrets? Really curious about your answer there :-)
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#5163 - 2012-10-24 10:51:06 UTC
I still don't get why railguns and beam lasers haven't got a significant alpha buff yet. You can double their alpha and still artillery will be about twice as good in that field. But suddenly you might see more alpha fleets accepting caldari, gallente and amarr ships for epic battles...

Pinky

Also simplifying races to only have 1 trait in weapons is wrong...
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#5164 - 2012-10-24 10:53:07 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
BTW, Caldari are ALREADY on TOP for long range damage dealing, either with HML on medium hull or with everything they have on large hull.


I'm not convinced the large hull situation you describe is entirely accurate.

They are almost certainly the quickest and easiest to be moderately successful with, but that's not really the same.



As I said, I believe the reason missiles are hard to balance is because range/DPS is dictated not by ammo, but by hardpoint. Every other weapon DPS/range chart is a bell(ish) curve. Missiles are uniform then zero. Yes, there are short/long range turrets too, but much of their reach/power is dictated by ammo. This enforces the trade off which is ahrd to overcome/address balance against compared to missiles.

I mentioned earlier it's possible to get a long range turret platform extremely close to a short range HML drakes damage whilst maintaining a massively longer range. Yes, the boat is only close in DPS at short ranges, however beyond the hard end point of the HAM it does 0 dps. This is possible because of ammo variations available to the gun platform to extend its range at a cost of DPS or vice versa. Comparing that turret ship to the "long range" HML drake, it kills it in terms of both DPS and range.

Allowing different missiles to have different profiles would make things a lot easier to balance, perhaps easier is the wrong phrase - it would allow much more flexibility in terms of fine tuning the systems.

Cruise are the best at long range. It's only the problem of long range bot being so useful anymore, and because of damage delay, but they definetely are the most powerful weapon at long range. Look at 100km range, and you'll see. In fact, it may very well be a lot sooner than 100km (excluding the Naga). And on top of that, they don't have to sacrifice their tank in range mod achieve it.

Now, as I said, stable damage over range are a caracteristic of missiles, and that would be sad to get rid of it only to simplify balancing and to comply to people unable to appreciate missiles strength. Difficulty is not a good reason for dumbing down the game. Missiles are not turrets, they are powerful at long range only because their damage don't fall with range. If you want damage depending on range, use turrets.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#5165 - 2012-10-24 10:55:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Noemi Nagano wrote:
smacktalk

You are a hopeless troll.

Absolutely NOTHING in your post is argument, you only wrote smacktalk.

Oh, I'm wrong, there is this sentry thing : we are not speaking about pve here.

The more I read you, and the more I see a hopeless carebare trying to save its tengu. Proof ? Small size don't exists ; sentries are relevant in this discussion ; caldari are bad at pvp ; only missiles are relevant, and they have to be like turrets or OP. There is absolutely no balance consideration in your talks.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#5166 - 2012-10-24 10:58:32 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
smacktalk

You are a hopeless troll.

Absolutely NOTHING in your post is argument, you only wrote smacktalk.


Alone the fact you claim CMs to be best long range weapon is enough proof for your trolling. Thanks for not posting again :)
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5167 - 2012-10-24 11:00:22 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
But this "missiles are better in everything" stuff is just ridiculous bullshit. Thanks for again proving you are a troll, and nothing but a troll.


Then show me
- medium long range turret that deals exactly the same dps as HMLs at 100 km
- medium sized hull + medium long range turret combo that can deal damage at 150 km
- medium long range turret that can hit orbiting frigate at 9 km as perfectly as heavy missiles do
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#5168 - 2012-10-24 11:01:20 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
smacktalk

You are a hopeless troll.

Absolutely NOTHING in your post is argument, you only wrote smacktalk.


Alone the fact you claim CMs to be best long range weapon is enough proof for your trolling. Thanks for not posting again :)

You misinterprete long range and the best : I precise it with long range being superior at 100km (though 80-90 maybe enough for most hull) and with the only drawback of damage delay which prove problematic at this range, though CM are not balanced yet, maybe their turn will come with BS balancing.

Patience is a vertu you should have learned in EVE, though caldari seem to be immune to this lesson because of the drake I guess.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#5169 - 2012-10-24 11:01:42 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Cruise are the best at long range.


!!!!!

Bouh Revetoile wrote:

It's only the problem of long range bot being so useful anymore, and because of damage delay, but they definetely are the most powerful weapon at long range. .


I assume you meant "not being so useful anymore", in regards of long range. How does that fit to the OPness of the long range Drake which you see? :)

Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Now, as I said, stable damage over range are a caracteristic of missiles, and that would be sad to get rid of it only to simplify balancing and to comply to people unable to appreciate missiles strength. Difficulty is not a good reason for dumbing down the game. Missiles are not turrets, they are powerful at long range only because their damage don't fall with range. If you want damage depending on range, use turrets.


Then dont complain you will get out-dpsed by missiles on long range. If you want long range big DPS, crosstrain to missiles. Simple as that, following just *your* logic ...
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#5170 - 2012-10-24 11:03:18 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
But this "missiles are better in everything" stuff is just ridiculous bullshit. Thanks for again proving you are a troll, and nothing but a troll.


Then show me
- medium long range turret that deals exactly the same dps as HMLs at 100 km
- medium sized hull + medium long range turret combo that can deal damage at 150 km
- medium long range turret that can hit orbiting frigate at 9 km as perfectly as heavy missiles do


Show me your combat alt first :) and then I give you relevant data over all 4 categories, med LR&SR, large LR&SR.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#5171 - 2012-10-24 11:03:32 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
But this "missiles are better in everything" stuff is just ridiculous bullshit. Thanks for again proving you are a troll, and nothing but a troll.


Then show me
- medium long range turret that deals exactly the same dps as HMLs at 100 km
- medium sized hull + medium long range turret combo that can deal damage at 150 km
- medium long range turret that can hit orbiting frigate at 9 km as perfectly as heavy missiles do

HAHA. You are asking for facts, fool ! :D

And with this path, they start asking you to show a missile ship able to blap a frigate. This only argument make them deserve all OPness in the world.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#5172 - 2012-10-24 11:05:08 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Now, as I said, stable damage over range are a caracteristic of missiles, and that would be sad to get rid of it only to simplify balancing and to comply to people unable to appreciate missiles strength. Difficulty is not a good reason for dumbing down the game. Missiles are not turrets, they are powerful at long range only because their damage don't fall with range. If you want damage depending on range, use turrets.


Indeed it is, but it's causing problems for people. That, and they can bring the DPS to bear from 0-max range. Other systems cannot, however other systems can project damage further but not so well further in.

This is ALWAYS going to create a situation where a given system is superior in a role/application.

/Shrug, I'm genuinely ambivalent as a cruise missile toting mission bear to fund a (matari) PvP char. I'm still here because I find the debate interesting Bear
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#5173 - 2012-10-24 11:07:16 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Then dont complain you will get out-dpsed by missiles on long range. If you want long range big DPS, crosstrain to missiles. Simple as that, following just *your* logic ...

Holy God ! Noemi, you just admited that missiles DO are superior to turrets at long range !

You may not be hopeless afterall.

BTW, I never questioned the fact that missiles should be the best at long range. I only want them to be less powerful than turrets at shorter range. and before you say it, no, current balance between HML and long range turrets is not enough. 10% damage nerf may be enough, but I'm sceptical, and yet I'm not crying, I'm just waiting for further testing.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5174 - 2012-10-24 11:07:51 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
And with this path, they start asking you to show a missile ship able to blap a frigate. This only argument make them deserve all OPness in the world.


50k volley damage. I want that!
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#5175 - 2012-10-24 11:09:53 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
But this "missiles are better in everything" stuff is just ridiculous bullshit. Thanks for again proving you are a troll, and nothing but a troll.


Then show me
- medium long range turret that deals exactly the same dps as HMLs at 100 km
- medium sized hull + medium long range turret combo that can deal damage at 150 km
- medium long range turret that can hit orbiting frigate at 9 km as perfectly as heavy missiles do


All at once wont happen - might be able to eft-up the top two though. What DPS (post change) is the (I assume it is a drake) doing at 100km?

Does rather highlight my belief it's an ammo thing though.

It is a ferox I have in mind though Pirate
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#5176 - 2012-10-24 11:14:17 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Indeed it is, but it's causing problems for people. That, and they can bring the DPS to bear from 0-max range. Other systems cannot, however other systems can project damage further but not so well further in.

This is ALWAYS going to create a situation where a given system is superior in a role/application.

/Shrug, I'm genuinely ambivalent as a cruise missile toting mission bear to fund a (matari) PvP char. I'm still here because I find the debate interesting Bear

Unless all is the same, you cannot make everything to have similar performances in all conditions. There must be areas where something is better than something else.

For HML, turrets cannot project damage so much farther than HML, and if you start using rigs, HML have far superior range.

Cruise missiles simply outrange anything in game.

People have perception problems, though, I'm a bit naive and think they can be educated.

Perception here is that CM are useless because they are worse than turret before 100km. But don't tell me I think CM are fine : they do have problem of damage delay at these ranges, though I think this problem will be taken down when balance come to BS size hull. This whole thread is here now because of the Caracal in fact.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5177 - 2012-10-24 11:19:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
But this "missiles are better in everything" stuff is just ridiculous bullshit. Thanks for again proving you are a troll, and nothing but a troll.


Then show me
- medium long range turret that deals exactly the same dps as HMLs at 100 km
- medium sized hull + medium long range turret combo that can deal damage at 150 km
- medium long range turret that can hit orbiting frigate at 9 km as perfectly as heavy missiles do


All at once wont happen - might be able to eft-up the top two though. What DPS (post change) is the (I assume it is a drake) doing at 100km?

Does rather highlight my belief it's an ammo thing though.

It is a ferox I have in mind though Pirate


You already failed.
Ferox does 210 dps at 97+ km with very bad tracking (Beam Zealot has higher dps)
Drake does 462 dps at 120 km
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#5178 - 2012-10-24 11:22:05 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
For HML, turrets cannot project damage so much farther than HML, and if you start using rigs, HML have far superior range.


Eh? After the changes they VERY much can. And they can do horrible (pixel) DPS at short range too with a simple ammo swap.

Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Cruise missiles simply outrange anything in game.

People have perception problems, though, I'm a bit naive and think they can be educated.

Perception here is that CM are useless because they are worse than turret before 100km. But don't tell me I think CM are fine : they do have problem of damage delay at these ranges, though I think this problem will be taken down when balance come to BS size hull. This whole thread is here now because of the Caracal in fact.


That's because on grid warping killed sniper fits Sad
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#5179 - 2012-10-24 11:25:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
But this "missiles are better in everything" stuff is just ridiculous bullshit. Thanks for again proving you are a troll, and nothing but a troll.


Then show me
- medium long range turret that deals exactly the same dps as HMLs at 100 km
- medium sized hull + medium long range turret combo that can deal damage at 150 km
- medium long range turret that can hit orbiting frigate at 9 km as perfectly as heavy missiles do


All at once wont happen - might be able to eft-up the top two though. What DPS (post change) is the (I assume it is a drake) doing at 100km?

Does rather highlight my belief it's an ammo thing though.

It is a ferox I have in mind though Pirate


You already failed.
Ferox does 210 dps at 97+ km with very bad tracking (Beam Zealot has higher dps)
Drake does 462 dps at 120 km



So why is Mirple posting this?

MIrple wrote:
Noemi,

I just got some numbers thought I would share them.

From an EFT that had the revelation proposed stats ported over

HML - CN Scourge - Drake Maxed skilled - 2x BCU

Explosion velocity 121
Explosion radius 105
Velocity - 6450
DPS - 332 @ 62.9K

HAM - CN Scourge - Drake Maxed skilled - 2x BCU

Explosion velocity 151
Explosion radius 93
Velocity - 3375
DPS - 462 @ 20.3K

The numbers look good to me the only thing I would say needs to be changed IMO is the speed of HAMS increased and the flight time decreased.

I can post the new Raven Torp Numbers as well if you like

Mirple



Who is wrong?

Edit: Or are you using a fit which will never see the dark of space and its EFT'd only and exclusively to boost numbers? I don't mind if you are, but my ferox fit wasnt, I can adjust it :) All it was missing was a point, but as a 'sniper'....well....
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5180 - 2012-10-24 11:30:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Who is wrong?


Do you really think that 2x BCS is better than 3x BCS? Those numbers are without rigs.

134 km with CN Scourge.

[Drake, Draek]

Internal Force Field Array I
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Sensor Booster II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
[Empty High slot]

Medium Rocket Fuel Cache Partition II
Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I