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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#5121 - 2012-10-23 16:39:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Noemi Nagano
@Bouh, you always talk about the same stuff again and again.

You bring numbers, I wreck your numbers with EFT, you say oh wait, those numbers are not relevant, .. and so on. Its a circle which will not end, and thats why I tried a different approach.

I asked a question before, maybe it was not posted in an explicit way, so some of you may not have seen it .. would be important to know your answer to go on, so I post it again:

_____
1) There are 2 ways, really. Either let missiles shine in some things and be crappy in other, and turrets vice versa. Or make all the same in efficiency. *added: efficiency in every aspect*

2) I dont see the patch is doing either of those 2.

I see some people here who disagree with the 2) - thats ok, we all cant know for sure.

But for all those who disagree with 1) ... tell what *you* want.
_____


So, whats your opinion about that? Do YOU think 1) is correct, and just disagree with 2)? I can live with that, people can have their opinions. I already said I would be a rich man if all those who say "everything will be balanced" after the patch will come and give me some 100 mil ISK :D .. but yeah, maybe I am wrong, and alone the Cane nerf will give so much more balance to BC close combat that a mildly buffed HAM Drake is viable again. We will see.

But your opinion about part 1) is important ..




Bouh Revetoile wrote:


And you keep ignoring the 40% dps advantage at range. And your only solution is different range ammo ? So missiles are more like turrets ?

Let me tell you your idea of balance is bad. Balance is not one thing OP somewhere, and another OP somewhere else.

Balance is turret have better damage at short range but less damage application whereas missiles have better damage at long range with more damage application (and missiles do have better damage application when you consider long range turrets).

Missiles != turrets.

PS : HML shines at long range, but today's HML shine also at long short range.


Balance does not work for just one weapon system though Bouh. There are 2 long and short range systems in medium and large size for the 4 trees (Proj., Hybrid, Laser and Missile). Of those 4 just ONE works for missiles. You cant take just this and nerf it, and completely ignore the others. If you do, you will not get balance.

Do you agree with me, that in the end there EITHER has to be 1 missile system of those 4 on top of its class and for the other 3 there will be a turret system on top OR in the end NO single system is on top but all 4 in all 4 sizes are viable in PvP in terms of being on par with the rest?

The first is, what we have atm. The second is what we will NOT have after this patch. And my concerns are we will have also not the first then. Thas no balance, thats f*ck up missile users. Simple as that :)
Lili Lu
#5122 - 2012-10-23 16:45:42 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
some stuff


Operation Bacon has failed already.Sad
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#5123 - 2012-10-23 16:51:49 UTC
Noemi,

I just got some numbers thought I would share them.

From an EFT that had the revelation proposed stats ported over

HML - CN Scourge - Drake Maxed skilled - 2x BCU

Explosion velocity 121
Explosion radius 105
Velocity - 6450
DPS - 332 @ 62.9K

HAM - CN Scourge - Drake Maxed skilled - 2x BCU

Explosion velocity 151
Explosion radius 93
Velocity - 3375
DPS - 462 @ 20.3K

The numbers look good to me the only thing I would say needs to be changed IMO is the speed of HAMS increased and the flight time decreased.

I can post the new Raven Torp Numbers as well if you like

Mirple
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#5124 - 2012-10-23 16:52:32 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
OT Smithers wrote:
And in any case, when someone cross-trains into direct fire weapons they damn sure aren't sticking with Caldari anyway. Who in their right mind would.


- Merlin
- Vulture
- Rokh http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8aX60biCE4
- Naga
- Ferox
- Harpy

Minmatar or "Winmatar" like you say it isn't that good when a single T2 cruiser can completely disable "godly" Hurricane.


I am missing your point...

In any case, you listed an odd selection of hulls. The easiest way to tell how good a ship or weapon actually is, is to consider how many people regret training for something else instead. No one has ever said, "Caldari Battleships ROCK! I would gladly trade my Mael, Phoon, and Pest for that Caldari Rohk!" or "Why did I train for this stupid Sleipner when I could have flown the Vulture!" The same applies to weapons. You have never, even once, seen someone unhappy because they trained for Arties instead of Cruise Missiles. There are probably few Caldari PvP pilot in the game that don't wish they had their Caldari ship and weapons SP to invest elsewhere.

This is what I would like to see changed.

The players of other races might well complain, all the races have their issues, but NONE of these players look at the Caldari and wish they had chosen to waste their training time there instead. If things were balanced you could randomly select any class of ships and weapons in the game, and have a hard time saying which was the best and which the worst. You could just pick a ship or weapon from any class and make a good argument that it was the best. None of this: "Well, you know, you could maybe USE it if you had to... have you thought about cross training?"

Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#5125 - 2012-10-23 16:59:12 UTC
OT Smithers wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
OT Smithers wrote:
And in any case, when someone cross-trains into direct fire weapons they damn sure aren't sticking with Caldari anyway. Who in their right mind would.


- Merlin
- Vulture
- Rokh http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8aX60biCE4
- Naga
- Ferox
- Harpy

Minmatar or "Winmatar" like you say it isn't that good when a single T2 cruiser can completely disable "godly" Hurricane.


I am missing your point...

In any case, you listed an odd selection of hulls. The easiest way to tell how good a ship or weapon actually is, is to consider how many people regret training for something else instead. No one has ever said, "Caldari Battleships ROCK! I would gladly trade my Mael, Phoon, and Pest for that Caldari Rohk!" or "Why did I train for this stupid Sleipner when I could have flown the Vulture!" The same applies to weapons. You have never, even once, seen someone unhappy because they trained for Arties instead of Cruise Missiles. There are probably few Caldari PvP pilot in the game that don't wish they had their Caldari ship and weapons SP to invest elsewhere.

This is what I would like to see changed.

The players of other races might well complain, all the races have their issues, but NONE of these players look at the Caldari and wish they had chosen to waste their training time there instead. If things were balanced you could randomly select any class of ships and weapons in the game, and have a hard time saying which was the best and which the worst. You could just pick a ship or weapon from any class and make a good argument that it was the best. None of this: "Well, you know, you could maybe USE it if you had to... have you thought about cross training?"


Nice and to the point again :) .. +1
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#5126 - 2012-10-23 17:03:09 UTC
MIrple wrote:
Noemi,

I just got some numbers thought I would share them.

From an EFT that had the revelation proposed stats ported over

HML - CN Scourge - Drake Maxed skilled - 2x BCU

Explosion velocity 121
Explosion radius 105
Velocity - 6450
DPS - 332 @ 62.9K

HAM - CN Scourge - Drake Maxed skilled - 2x BCU

Explosion velocity 151
Explosion radius 93
Velocity - 3375
DPS - 462 @ 20.3K

The numbers look good to me the only thing I would say needs to be changed IMO is the speed of HAMS increased and the flight time decreased.

I can post the new Raven Torp Numbers as well if you like

Mirple


Those HAM numbers look good to you? Well, compare it to its peers. And consider to count in the Drone bay too, because on short range Drones *are* an option ... those 20.3k are theoretical max I assume? Means, another 2k less in Eve?

The new torp Raven will not be good before the hull itself is fixed and Torps are fixed (will see if this is the case after patch, the Torp part that is ..). Could be possible the Phoon will do ok with the new Torps (it already didnt do so bad with the old ones, Winmatar hull ...).
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5127 - 2012-10-23 17:06:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
OT Smithers wrote:
The players of other races might well complain, all the races have their issues, but NONE of these players look at the Caldari and wish they had chosen to waste their training time there instead. If things were balanced you could randomly select any class of ships and weapons in the game, and have a hard time saying which was the best and which the worst. You could just pick a ship or weapon from any class and make a good argument that it was the best. None of this: "Well, you know, you could maybe USE it if you had to... have you thought about cross training?"


After 6 months from starting the game I struggled in level 3 missions with my new Harbinger. Oh, why I didn't choose easy mode when I started?

Try to guess how many times I was really close to biomassing my character and unsub?

It doesn't get any easier now.
- What ships can you fly?
- Amarr T1 subcaps and T2 frigs and cruisers...
- Stop right there! Go back to home and train Drake/Tengu and HML.
- I was just about to mention Drake and Cane...

No armor fleets anymore. Everything is shields, shields, missiles, shields...
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#5128 - 2012-10-23 17:13:25 UTC
Aglais wrote:
Seriously guys. HAMs are going to get easier to fit. If you want, try to put a few on your Tengus, too. Yeah, they'll have far less range. But you'll notice that you're doing obscene amounts of damage. And you've already still got some pretty good tank. Why not give it a try? It might not be that bad.


On Tengus they might be ok (I cant judge, never used a HAM Tengu before and the ones I met and killed were maybe failfits..), but if the t3 is the only thing which is working in missile PvP - would that be balance?
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#5129 - 2012-10-23 17:14:30 UTC
Sigras wrote:

I never mentioned cross training, but it is a worthwhile discussion. Unfortunately it has nothing to do with balance because again, you cant balance around the noobs with 20,000,000 SP, you have to balance around all the bitter vets with > 100,000,000 SP

Allow me to illustrate: if they said "missiles and drones are two weapon systems that take 2x longer than everything else to train, so we're going to reward the players who train for them by making their weapons 20% better than the other weapons" what would be the problem with that?
Eventually everyone would just be flying missiles and drones, and the bitter vets who have tons of SP would be flying them tomorrow!

The game must be balanced outside of the training time it takes to get anything. This is also the reason why cost is not a balancing factor. This is how we got into the titan/super carrier disaster that we have now; they said since they cost so much and take so long to train for, they should **** everything in their way . . . it turns out that doesnt work for balancing.


True enough, but there is another side to this:

Right now missiles are far and away the most skill intensive sub-cap weapons line in the game. Worse, the investment into missiles is not transferable to other weapon's systems as it is in the case with the others. Finally, Missiles are the Caldari signature weapon. If we are to disregard SP investment as being irrelevant to balance, then wherever possible we should balance the investment demands and the return on that investment.

A solution is to eliminate the missile support skills completely and merge them into a general class of weapon support skills.

Second, eliminate the separate missile lines for each weapon and stack them as they do with the others. The chain would then look like this:

Small Missiles 5 (Allows T2 Rockets and Light Missiles)
- Short Range Rocket Specialization 4
- Long Range Light Missile Specialization 4
Medium Missiles 5 (Allows T2 HAMs and HMLs)
- Short Range Ham Specialization 4
- Long Range Heavy Missile Specialization 4
Large Missiles (Allows T2 Torpedos and Cruise Missiles)
- Short Range Torpedo Specialization 4
- Long Range Cruise Missile Specialization 4

Under this system, Caldari pilots will have invested no more SP than any other race, their support skills would apply to ALL weapons. It would also go a long way towards eliminating many of their complaints.

MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#5130 - 2012-10-23 17:15:23 UTC  |  Edited by: MIrple
The numbers I posted were without drones.

Also please post a fit in a battle cruiser that can do 462 dps with guns only at ~24k range and not in fall off.
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#5131 - 2012-10-23 17:16:48 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Aglais wrote:
Seriously guys. HAMs are going to get easier to fit. If you want, try to put a few on your Tengus, too. Yeah, they'll have far less range. But you'll notice that you're doing obscene amounts of damage. And you've already still got some pretty good tank. Why not give it a try? It might not be that bad.


On Tengus they might be ok (I cant judge, never used a HAM Tengu before and the ones I met and killed were maybe failfits..), but if the t3 is the only thing which is working in missile PvP - would that be balance?


HAM Caracals. HAM Drakes. Standard missile launchers. Rockets. Maybe even some torp ships appear due to Guided Missile Precision affecting all missiles now. Also, the Legion can be HAM fit- this buff may be the thing that gets people to legitimately look at it.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#5132 - 2012-10-23 17:18:36 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
OT Smithers wrote:
The players of other races might well complain, all the races have their issues, but NONE of these players look at the Caldari and wish they had chosen to waste their training time there instead. If things were balanced you could randomly select any class of ships and weapons in the game, and have a hard time saying which was the best and which the worst. You could just pick a ship or weapon from any class and make a good argument that it was the best. None of this: "Well, you know, you could maybe USE it if you had to... have you thought about cross training?"


After 6 months from starting the game I struggled in level 3 missions with my new Harbinger. Oh, why I didn't choose easy mode when I started?

Try to guess how many times I was really close to biomassing my character and unsub?

It doesn't get any easier now.
- What ships can you fly?
- Amarr T1 subcaps and T2 frigs and cruisers...
- Stop right there! Go back to home and train Drake/Tengu and HML.
- I was just about to mention Drake and Cane...

No armor fleets anymore. Everything is shields, shields, missiles, shields...


As you might have noticed, Eve is not and will not get balanced around PvE. While I do agree that this aspect sucks a bit, we all have to live with it. No one ever objected to the fact the Drake outclasses the other 3 BC in l4s and is also way in front in l3s. Although in l3s those other 3 tier 2s will do a good job too. But PvE is just not a reason for CCP to balance things. Adapt or die. (which you should btw anyway in regards of the so OP Drake/HML - crosstrain, if you feel its OP. Oh, and its so easy and fast to get all those missile skills, right?)
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#5133 - 2012-10-23 17:21:44 UTC
MIrple wrote:
The numbers I posted were without drones.

Also please post a fit in a battle cruiser that can do 462 dps with guns only at ~24k range and not in fall off.


24k range? I thought 20.3k? And how will you maintain that exact range with a ship which is not the fastest in its class?

And yes, without Drones, thats what I meant: Caldari have the smallest bay, remember? A Harbinger can do a lot more Drone DPS than a Drake for example .. or shut it down a LOT with 5 med ECMs ...
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5134 - 2012-10-23 17:22:28 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
As you might have noticed, Eve is not and will not get balanced around PvE. While I do agree that this aspect sucks a bit, we all have to live with it. No one ever objected to the fact the Drake outclasses the other 3 BC in l4s and is also way in front in l3s. Although in l3s those other 3 tier 2s will do a good job too. But PvE is just not a reason for CCP to balance things. Adapt or die. (which you should btw anyway in regards of the so OP Drake/HML - crosstrain, if you feel its OP. Oh, and its so easy and fast to get all those missile skills, right?)


I was talking about PvP (not PvE or your iWin solo PvP).

Where did you last see Abaddon fleet?
Where did you last see any armor fleet?

FCs say "if you can't fly Drake/Tengu and use T2 HMLs then go home noob".
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#5135 - 2012-10-23 17:23:54 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Gallente/Hybrid


Gallente isn't hybrid race just like Caldari isn't missile race.

Both races have almost even split between two weapon systems (if you can call drones one).

Gallente: drones/hybrids
Caldari: hybrids/missiles

And Amarrians aren't purely laser users.
Missile ships (even though you are limited to short range missiles), drone boats, laser ships.

And we still have ships that are better with projectiles: Maller and Prophecy for example. At least you can take full advantage of half of the bonuses this way (maximizing tank).


How many Gallente ships have ZERO turret hardpoints -- relying upon Drones for 100% of their offense?

What percentage of ships, all races, field at least some drones?

The Minmatar signature weapons is Projectiles
The Amarr Signature weapon is Lasers
The Caldari Signature weapon is Missiles
The Gallente signature weapon is Hybrids

Obviously there is some small amount of cross over, and every race fields some secondary weapons -- including some hulls devoted exclusively to these secondary weapons. But just as every race has a signature EWAR, they all have a signature weapon.
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#5136 - 2012-10-23 17:24:30 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
MIrple wrote:
The numbers I posted were without drones.

Also please post a fit in a battle cruiser that can do 462 dps with guns only at ~24k range and not in fall off.


24k range? I thought 20.3k? And how will you maintain that exact range with a ship which is not the fastest in its class?

And yes, without Drones, thats what I meant: Caldari have the smallest bay, remember? A Harbinger can do a lot more Drone DPS than a Drake for example .. or shut it down a LOT with 5 med ECMs ...


Sorry 20 is correct. We are not talking drones in this only the turrert or missile DPS/projection. BC's still need to be balanced remember.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5137 - 2012-10-23 17:30:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
OT Smithers wrote:
How many Gallente ships have ZERO turret hardpoints -- relying upon Drones for 100% of their offense?

What percentage of ships, all races, field at least some drones?

The Minmatar signature weapons is Projectiles
The Amarr Signature weapon is Lasers
The Caldari Signature weapon is Missiles
The Gallente signature weapon is Hybrids

Obviously there is some small amount of cross over, and every race fields some secondary weapons -- including some hulls devoted exclusively to these secondary weapons. But just as every race has a signature EWAR, they all have a signature weapon.


Because Amarr "signature weapon" is lasers then Arbitrator is laser ship? With those two turret hardpoints. Lol
At level 5 Arbi does more damage with drones than those "signature weapons".

And to be honest, you're not going to be great Minmatar pilot if you only train projectiles...
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#5138 - 2012-10-23 18:00:03 UTC
MIrple wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
MIrple wrote:
The numbers I posted were without drones.

Also please post a fit in a battle cruiser that can do 462 dps with guns only at ~24k range and not in fall off.


24k range? I thought 20.3k? And how will you maintain that exact range with a ship which is not the fastest in its class?

And yes, without Drones, thats what I meant: Caldari have the smallest bay, remember? A Harbinger can do a lot more Drone DPS than a Drake for example .. or shut it down a LOT with 5 med ECMs ...


Sorry 20 is correct. We are not talking drones in this only the turrert or missile DPS/projection. BC's still need to be balanced remember.


I am talking about either actual stuff happening in Eve (which makes sense) or just numbers. If you take just numbers, then no, this Drake doesnt look hot to me. For sure no contender for No.1 in close combat. And for the "real" thing it looks even worse.

Thanks for you effort though.
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#5139 - 2012-10-23 18:03:15 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
OT Smithers wrote:
The players of other races might well complain, all the races have their issues, but NONE of these players look at the Caldari and wish they had chosen to waste their training time there instead. If things were balanced you could randomly select any class of ships and weapons in the game, and have a hard time saying which was the best and which the worst. You could just pick a ship or weapon from any class and make a good argument that it was the best. None of this: "Well, you know, you could maybe USE it if you had to... have you thought about cross training?"


After 6 months from starting the game I struggled in level 3 missions with my new Harbinger. Oh, why I didn't choose easy mode when I started?

Try to guess how many times I was really close to biomassing my character and unsub?

It doesn't get any easier now.
- What ships can you fly?
- Amarr T1 subcaps and T2 frigs and cruisers...
- Stop right there! Go back to home and train Drake/Tengu and HML.
- I was just about to mention Drake and Cane...

No armor fleets anymore. Everything is shields, shields, missiles, shields...


Few Points:

** I was talking about PvP. For years Caldari pilots were told that they were the PvE race. This was the excuse as to why they basically only had the Drake. "You're the best at PvE, and you have the Drake, so shut up!" Hell, up until a year or so ago Caldari pilots didn't even have frigates -- it took five webs, three target painters, and a Falcon to make Caldari rockets frigates work, and Hybrids were a joke.

** If you are having these kinds of problems you need to change corporations. Change what you are DOING in game. The problem isn't your ships, it's some goofy fleet doctrine crap spewed by unimaginative fleet-nazis. Whether you are Amarr or Caldari or whatever, whether you are a two month old new player or a 100 million SP bitter-vet, never let ANYONE tell you this kind of nonsense. If they don't value you as an individual, if they see you as some meaningless body filling a Drake, tell them to F@ck off and go find good people to fly with. Hell, get your pirate on and come fly with my corporation. We're small, we're damn near always outnumbered, but we get into some crazy fights and no one is going to tell you a damn thing about what you fly.

** I see armor fleets every day. I was in an armor gang just yesterday. These things come and go, and next month everyone might well be hull tanking their ships and talking smack to anyone who lacks this skill. Ignore them and fly what you like.
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#5140 - 2012-10-23 18:08:52 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
MIrple wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
MIrple wrote:
The numbers I posted were without drones.

Also please post a fit in a battle cruiser that can do 462 dps with guns only at ~24k range and not in fall off.


24k range? I thought 20.3k? And how will you maintain that exact range with a ship which is not the fastest in its class?

And yes, without Drones, thats what I meant: Caldari have the smallest bay, remember? A Harbinger can do a lot more Drone DPS than a Drake for example .. or shut it down a LOT with 5 med ECMs ...


Sorry 20 is correct. We are not talking drones in this only the turrert or missile DPS/projection. BC's still need to be balanced remember.


I am talking about either actual stuff happening in Eve (which makes sense) or just numbers. If you take just numbers, then no, this Drake doesnt look hot to me. For sure no contender for No.1 in close combat. And for the "real" thing it looks even worse.

Thanks for you effort though.


So I comes down to you said show me the numbers but when the numbers are shown its now ships when the ship is shown its the numbers again. I give up as its just a matter of your right about this and everyone including CCP is wrong. Got it I am not going to post in here till the ships are live on SiSi.