Player Features and Ideas Discussion

- Caracal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2F6_q6XROTY
- Blackbird
What's more annoying than getting killed by missile spammer? You get killed by jamming missile spammer.
- Raven
- Scorpion NI
- Drake
- Tengu

And if you just could realize that Caldari isn't "missile race":
- Vulture
- Ferox
- Rokh
- Tengu (yes, it has hybrid subsystem too )

And to your "HAM only work against BSs and capitals!".
Train your missile support skills. Even I can hit cruisers and BCs fine with my HAM Sacrilege (yeah, like there's a working HML version ) and I only have missile support skills at level 2-3.

This is plain wrong : learn about tracking, as it have been said countless of times. Before 25km, the paper dpsof turrets is only paper dps, and you almost never apply it fully. Missiles dps at close range is WAY MORE reliable.


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IMO, nerfing damage is needed both for long and short range. And if you leave fury missiles alone, they will be too powerful compared to turrets. As for their soft stats, fury are not meant to hit smaller target but larger ones. For cruisers, faction HM work fine at short range, and for smaller targets, you have buffed precision missiles.

And for long range, max range of medium railguns is around 80-85km + about 25km falloff with no range bonus, and that's a sniper fit : with *no* tank. If missiles hit up to these distances, their dps is still too high. Medium turret dps at these range is less than 250.

With 3 rigs, you can upgrade the range of heavy missiles by almost 50%, that mean the new HM, in sniping mode, will reach 75km : it's their current range. Their speed already have been buffed, and with rigs, you can reach even more (8500m/s with 2 missile velocity rigs, on unbonused hull, same as today's bonused hull). I think it's enough.

With a long range ammo, you just delete the range of missiles drawbacks, because they would outrange every turrets of their class.


You mean high sec pvp ? :o

Smacktalking is funny in fact.

Blasters Merlin and Ferox always used to have some use (robustness + damage application), but as you said, hybrid skilled caldari are something very rare.

Anyway, for frigates and cruisers, it was not only missile caldari who were screwed until recently : there was the rifter and one cruiser for each race. Caldari had the blackbird at this time...

Tengu has one of the best gunnery subsystems. Why you or other Pro Caldari pilots don't use it? Well, because you can do everything better with HML.

About HAMs "not working on Caldari hulls":
Compare Sacrilege's and Tengu's bonuses. Do you really think Sacrilege is better? Lol.
In case you don't get it: 10% per level to missile velocity.
+ a bit faster ROF.

another troll? hmm :S

torps do almost full damage to battleship and BC rats with a single painter on or if they are burning their prop's. they will do significantly less damage to cruisers and smaller. working as intended, use drones.

hulks cannot speed tank torps. if u've been shooting hulks with ur torps and do poor damage this is more than likely due to the small sig of hulks. even if the hulk has a T2 10mn AB that it cant even fit along side strip miners, it cannot get fast enough to significantly reduce incoming damage from rage torps (i guess if it overheated it would).

Blasters are in a far better place. I've still yet to mount a T2 250mm on anything. Ever.

Did you even read the post before responding? seriously, read my post, then read your post again.

My post is not comparing the two ships at all, its talking about their relative damage when shooting at people with different piloting skills.

People have been saying that missiles do less DPS against smaller targets than turrets, because turrets can hit for full damage if the target is coming straight at them. My point is that only happens when the pilot youre fighting is terrible, and a good pilot will avoid WAY more turret damage than missile damage, so in that scenario its always better to be in a missile ship.

Yes it is comparing the two weapon systems not the two ships.

If they kept the HAM changes, and made it so you could swap ammo nearly instant, i'd be happy.

Then you can actually exploit the damage holes tactfully in a fight for range, and resist holes of various ships etc.

As it is now, a swap after you change targets nullifys the added DPS you are trying to gain in most situations entirely. Make it instant, and now you are adding great value to HAM's, and actually appreciating players who learn how to leverage this mechanic most effectively above those who just derp derp.

I'm with everyone else in the sense that i'd stomach this nerf a whole lot better if we were inching out just a little more viability out of HAM's.

Then again, flat damage boost works for me as well.

I'll take your word for it that fixes to Cereb and Nighthawk are coming... As it doesn't even need to be mentioned these ships are going to be buried even deeper into obscurity until then.

QFT. Yeah, I've never understood CCP's predilection to give Caldari ships bigger bonuses than other ships get. I'm referring specifically to 10% per level bonuses on range whether guns or missiles. That is huge. At level 5 it means 50% more range. Meanwhile other races get 5% damage or rof or if they're lucky 7.5% range bonuses. What's with that? And as you point out it gets compounded even further for missiles because the two range skills there are 10% skills and the corresponding two gun range skills are 5%.

Effectively with the right ship the missile user is gathering 150% of range bonus from hull and skills and the turret user only 87.5% at most. And that is with missiles that, until these adjustments go through, have more "optimal" (if you will) already. Tech II long range ammo will effectively only get you to HM range even after the change. But the available skill and hull differential will still be 150% vs at most 87.5%.

Something there has to change. Maybe that can be done with giving differential boosts to TC/TE effects on missiles. Currently the TE gun 15% optimal plus 30% falloff could be converted to a flat 10 or 15% missile flight time or speed only. i.e. The turret user will retain more gain from the tracking mods to balance against the missile users better hull and skill bonuses. Either way CCP has to be careful that all these changes don't just preserve a very significantly larger range advantage with missiles.

Also, while addressing TC and TE CCP should reexamine the 30% falloff bonus. Medium beams are stuck with the same optimal as Medium arty. But the arty gets a double sized falloff and then gets an even further lopsided gain when adding a 30% falloff to it's much larger base falloff. Either give beams some more base optimal, or cut tracking mod falloff gain from 30% to 25% (vs. optimal 15%), or actually, do both. It will also be a little snip off the extreme falloff ranges with ACs, and the boats that use that very extended falloff and to which the Drake addicts deflect their nerf calls to, the Vargur and Mach.

I have pointed out before how in damage skills its the opposite - for RoF and damage the turret supports both have 1% per level more, giving 5% more damage and 5% better RoF at all l5 compared to missile brothers. Does it matter? Not really, apart from turrets will rely more on those skills than missiles in getting maximum damage. For range its the other way round. Missile range needs full skills, else it sucks.

Ofc if you reduce the skill effects you will need to get base range up, if you just bring the skills in line, balance would be broken.