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Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 952
Onictus Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation Likes received: 952	#5021 - 2012-10-21 12:50:18 UTC Jorma Morkkis wrote: Noemi Nagano wrote: and very short range Compared to what? Quake? Javelin? Gleam? ....and those are some impressive optimals there.....NOT.

In Wreck we thrust 554
Bouh Revetoile In Wreck we thrust Likes received: 554	#5022 - 2012-10-21 13:51:22 UTC Onictus wrote: Theoretically you can use quake and get more DPS....it also takes you into 1400mm tracking ranges, you'll miss anything short of a webbed BS with a MWD on. Oh and you need three Gryostabs to do it. Infact, you can reach these damage values with scourge fury.

Noemi Nagano

Perkone

Caldari State

Likes received: 122

#5023 - 2012-10-21 14:31:56 UTC | Edited by: Noemi Nagano

Yeah, and you could fit 2 more HML to the Canes highslots and end up with 490 DPS (RF EMP + Fury HML) compared to the Drakes 411 DPS (Scourge Fury) 368 DPS (CN Scourge) or 329 DPS (other damage type Fury) (both ships with all l5, no implants, no Drones).

So yes, the Cane can easily Out-DPS the Drake on paper. And thats even before the patch. Btw, without those launchers the Cane would have 426 DPS (RF ammo) or 432 (Quake). Still have bigger bay, still have bigger bandwith. And, to be fair, also a worse tank.

A list for you, all l5, 2 t2 damage mods, no rigs, no drones, no implants:

Cane with 6 Arty + 2 HML:

490 DPS (RF high damage + Fury)

426 DPS (RF high damage and no launchers)

Drake:

411 DPS (Scourge Fury)

386 DPS (Scourge Faction)

329 DPS (Fury non-Scourge)

just to compare others:

Harbinger with IN Multi:

468 DPS

Brutix with CN Antimatter:

444 DPS

I perfectly know all those ships will have tracking issues with fast close stuff. And I know perfectly well, in game it will not be the best bet to use them there. But you can clearly see, * the numbers show* - the Drake is worst in DPS. There is no point in denying this :)

Onictus

Federal Navy Academy

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 952

#5024 - 2012-10-21 14:43:18 UTC | Edited by: Onictus

Noemi Nagano wrote:

Yeah because people use HMLs on atry canes......not.

Jorma Morkkis

State War Academy

Caldari State

Likes received: 455

#5025 - 2012-10-21 14:51:56 UTC | Edited by: Jorma Morkkis

Noemi Nagano wrote:

Yeah, and you could fit 2 more HML to the Canes highslots and end up with 490 DPS (RF EMP + Fury HML)

My version of Pyfa says 496 (RF EMP + Scourge Fury, no implants) but...

That's with Howitzers. Good luck fitting MWD + any tank.

Oh and it only does that in 15 km optimal if it can hit the target with those 720mms.

Ok, I give it 4 TEs. Optimal range is 22,1 km.

Bouh Revetoile

In Wreck we thrust

Likes received: 554

#5026 - 2012-10-21 15:13:37 UTC | Edited by: Bouh Revetoile

With two launchers, the cane don't have less tank than the drake, it have no tank at all. And you can put a third BCS on the drake to outdps the cane.

And still, this is short range. But I already did these comparisons, and conclued to an advantage of the harbinger over a 2 BCS drake until 28km, range where the drake have no tracking issues. Beyond, it's all for the drake, up to a 40% dps advantage (without tracking issues). Yes, there is damage mitigation specific to missiles, but in no way it is comparable to long range turrets tracking with long range ammo.

These stats are way out of turrets performances, and obsolete them. That is why HML need to be nerfed, and their dps reduced.

PS : 5 more MBps of drones on the cane ; really significative...

Jorma Morkkis

State War Academy

Caldari State

Likes received: 455

#5027 - 2012-10-21 15:32:22 UTC | Edited by: Jorma Morkkis

Bouh Revetoile wrote:

With two launchers, the cane don't have less tank than the drake, it have no tank at all. And you can put a third BCS on the drake to outdps the cane.

It has tank... 26k EHP of it. But yeah, Drake has more tank and it easily outdamages Cane at longer distances.

[Hurricane, SH!TF!T]

Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Large Shield Extender II
Stasis Webifier II
J5 Prototype Warp Disruptor I

720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I

Zainou 'Gypsy' Electronics EE-603

Sorry about the name. I forgot to change it.


Bouh Revetoile In Wreck we thrust Likes received: 554	#5028 - 2012-10-21 15:39:09 UTC Jorma Morkkis wrote: Bouh Revetoile wrote: With two launchers, the cane don't have less tank than the drake, it have no tank at all. And you can put a third BCS on the drake to outdps the cane. It has tank... 26k EHP of it. But yeah, Drake has more tank and it easily outdamages Cane at longer distances. 26kehp is less than a T1 cruiser...


Jorma Morkkis State War Academy Caldari State Likes received: 455	#5029 - 2012-10-21 15:42:30 UTC \| Edited by: Jorma Morkkis Bouh Revetoile wrote: 26kehp is less than a T1 cruiser... Yeah, compared to most. Not if compared to Minmatar cruisers. Main reason for "good luck fitting MWD + any tank"

Noemi Nagano

Perkone

Caldari State

Likes received: 122

#5030 - 2012-10-21 16:01:21 UTC | Edited by: Noemi Nagano

Bouh Revetoile wrote:

- lots of chit chat-

My numbers are correct. I didnt deny the fact *IN GAME* things might be different. But before you said its not possible to outdps a HML Drake with an Arty-Cane, which simply is not true. If you fit more damage mods to one ship than the other you will know yourself how this irrelevates all comparisons. Still, for you:

462 DPS for the Drake then, 3 BCS. Still way behind the 2 Gyro 6 Arty+2 HML Cane, and still no drones counted in. With drones this would be:

561 DPS (Drake) to 601 DPS (Cane). Heck, the Cane could even go for Amarr Drones and deal pure EM with the Drones and still have 570 DPS.

Again, I didnt say those fittings will play a role in game. In game other things do also matter. But once and for all - this EFT-warrioring doesnt prove your point, in fact it does the opposite. I was right. You were not.

Btw, it would be nice if you gave a fitting for your Drake, with 3 BCS. Normally you end up with some CPU-issues if you want to stick with t2 in Drakes and take 3 damage mods :)

Best regards.

PS: That Cane I spoke about has FAR more speed than the Drake, and is also far from having no tank. I will not post the fitting though, will hopefully be able to use it for some demonstration later on, I am pretty sure it could beat any HML Drake if the fight is not starting at below 10 and will for sure not lose to any HML Drake (again, assuming not starting at zero).

This fitting of Jorma deserves its name. But I didnt expect any good fittings by someone who is not posting a combat alt anyway.

OT Smithers

A Farewell To Kings...

Dock Workers

Likes received: 402

#5031 - 2012-10-21 16:13:41 UTC

Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Finally some materials. In fact, you actually pointed these problems, and I already answered them, but you ignored me, like always when something is not to your taste.

1) See GMP skill applyed. Same size target will be hit fine. 25% is HUGE, not small. And add the fitting buff to HAM. Use a web if speed is still a problem. Use a turret ship if you want the advantages of turrets.

Possibly true, but we will need to wait and see how these things work in practice. I think it is entirely possible that the change to GMP will allow HAMs, Torps, and Rockets to finally function correctly.

Quote:

2) HM velocity is increased, and we don't balance a weapon system for pve.

It's PvE. Who cares.

Quote:

3) See acceleration corrected : actual range will now be very closer from the theoretical range.

Not quite. Missile FLIGHT DISTANCE will be closer to the theoretical max. The weapon itself, however, must still fly a pursuit course which impacts it's actual effective range. In cases in which the target is approaching the firing ship, the effective range increases. In cases in which the target is manuevering away or moving laterally, the missile expends it's flight time chasing the target. In worst case scenarios in which the target is fleeing, the reduction in range is equal to the flight time, times the velocity of the target ship.

Assuming my math is correct:

Ignoring missile acceleration, a new Heavy Missile fired by a pilot with Missile Projection 5, requires 5 seconds to reach a stationary Cynabol 35km away. If that same Cynabol is travelling away from the firing ship at 3000 m/sec, the missile will require seven seconds to impact, having travelled 50km to reach the target. If the firing ship is travelling at 1500km/sec in pursuit, the range between ships at the time the first salvo hits will have grown to 45km. The missiles from the next salvo, fired at that new range, will then be at the edge of the maximum missile flight time when acceleration is taken into account. They should hit approximately 10 seconds after launch. The following salvos will not hit at all.

The same applies, obviously to orbits. Here the problem is less timing out, and more damage delay.

However, the new short range precision ammo will definately suffer from the timing out problem. Here the missiles will have a maximum travel range of just over 20km. If fired at an Ares holding point at 25km, the missiles are completely incapable of hitting the target at all. They will, however, be capable of hitting any Frigate, regardless of target velocity, within scram range.

Whether that Frigate is using an MWD or not, the new precision missile will still fail to apply full damage. An AB frigate, obviously, is significantly smaller than the explosion radius, and far faster than the explosion velocity, so the missiles will hardly touch it at all. And again, this is within scram range. Once we approach disruptor range, target speed becomes a factor. I am too lazy to do the math right now, but it seems likely that the typical practical range for the new precision missiles will be 15km or less against MWD Frigates or fast Cruisers.

Quote:

4) BC and BS will be adressed later, probably for the next summer expansion, but it might be sooner than this.

I wonder if this means more Drake nerfs by summer. :P

Perhaps CCP will remove their shield resist and replace it with a cargo capacity bonus. That seems true to form.

Noemi Nagano

Perkone

Caldari State

Likes received: 122

#5032 - 2012-10-21 16:15:11 UTC

Onictus wrote:

Yeah because people use HMLs on atry canes......not.

I never said they do. I said the exact opposite. Still the possibility is there, and the numbers are also higher for the Cane with NO HML used. Which somehow is the exact opposite of what Jorma and that gallentean troll said.

Lets look back. I stated before how I feel about HML not being OP. Others said "but look at the numbers, it shows they are OP!". I said numbers alone are not working in Eve, because its always a combination of stuff like a ship with its attributes and a weapon system and meta game which all have to be calculated. People said "no, you have to stick with the numbers, the rest is just your weird perception!!". I said "ok, if discussing just numbers, then for some numbers I agree on they "look" like they are OP. But care to look at other numbers, which give a different picture, using the same ships, same weapons but other ranges and ammo" .. then the same people came and said "those numbers mean nothing, ships are not used like that".

Maybe you get it? When I said looking at the game itself is what we should do people said that would be wrong, numbers are all. When the numbers (eve-kill.net stats, EFT numbers, whatever) said something which didnt fit to their point of view they say those numbers are wrong and we should look at what happens in the game. This will go on and on. Simple as that.

I show how the Cane deals more DPS than the Drake and they say "you compare short range fittings with long range fittings", if I show long range Cane deals more they say "it will not work, it has too small EHP". If I would reveal the EHP of my fit they would claim something else ... it does not matter, one cant convince trolls.

Either way, I am not convinced about the need for nerfing HML. And I am not convinced we will have a more balanced game after this. In fact I am sure the game will have less balance afterwards. But again, we will see.

But if all those who say I am wrong will give some 100 mil ISK afterwards when they see how I was right, then I would be a rich man ...

Lili Lu

Likes received: 779

#5033 - 2012-10-21 16:31:07 UTC | Edited by: Lili Lu

Noemi Nagano wrote:

I agree with you here. The main thing a BC should rely on to kill fast orbitting small stuff is drones. Then again you maybe see the logic behind this: Caldari have a good missile option, which will be able to deal a bit of damage too. And they have in the same time the smallest drone bay and smallest bandwith too. And a Drake has the worst option of those 4 tier2 BCs to fit some good utility high, getting a single small neut is normally all you can do.. So if you want to shift balance, then dont forget to rebalance this aspect either.

Thats my whole point, the whole time: assuming a system is not working in one aspect (thats what you do, when you say HML are OP because they deal too much damage on far out ranges compared to their turret peers) then one has to consider what happens when you nerf this system. You have to be aware of the consequences of a nerf for all those other aspects too. And in this case close combat DPS will suffer too much IMO (raw damage for faction/t1/fury HML will ALL get nerfed, same with some soft stats, so they have less damage and will apply this damage worse than they do now!). Maybe the dronebay-size and bandwith need to be adressed then to compensate those issues.
. . .
PS: A bit OT: apart from that, I dont deny relying on Drones for DPS is a bit painful, esp. under sentry fire ... I am not objecting to a Drone-buff. But it could be Drones are the same for CCP like missiles are, something they dont like too much because of serverload .. Roll

PPS: And one more note: for missiles there is really only one line in each class.For turrets there are options. Let me show you what I mean.

Turrets have normally faster firing, better tracking, lower alpha, shorter range options and bigger brothers with worse stats in tracking and RoF but more damage and range (for example dual180mm AC, 220mm AC and 425mm AC). So if you want to fit a Cane for anti-frig, you can use those smaller ones and still get a weapon bonus. This will cripple your ability to deal maximum DPS to bigger ships and longer ranges, but will enable you to hit smaller stuff pretty ok.

Missiles on the other hand have only one class - Heavy Missile Launchers for example, with the variations tech 1, meta, and so on. If a Drake wants to "downgrade" to be able to fight Frigs better it would have to use a different class, Rapid Light launchers for example. Then it will not get a bonus on that launchers though, because the ship bonus is only for Heavy and Heavy Assault ... of course it would be much work to change this all, still it might be hard to find good balance with everything if there are so many differences in turrets and missiles. Its a bit like Tachyons which are out of line with other long range large guns, simply because there is no equivalent railgun or artillery.

Noemi, the problem I see with Drake addicts is a severe lack of creativity. Let's examine the neut issue first.

Lack of tiers for HMLs doesnt matter, and you don't have to drop down to light missiles. You want a medium neut in your utility high, here it is. It does require you to sacrifice some tank for grid. But turret users do that all the time. Welcome to the club. And, your ehp is still higher than a Harby or Cane, 76k ehp.

Highs - 7 x HML II (precision scourge), Medium Unstable Energy Neut
Meds - LSE II, Limited Annointed EM field, Invuln II, Faint Epsilon Scrambler, Fleeting Propulsion web, Experimental 10mn mwd
Lows - DC II, 2 x BSC II, Beta Reactor Control
Rigs - 3 x CDFE
Drones - 5 light drones of whatever you want

Any tackling frig that wants to put a scram and web on that Drake is gonna get hurt.

As for other ships having a larger drone bay big deal. Small dronebay is a Caldari thing. They don't prioritize drones. Gallente don't prioritize missiles. It's the games traditional racial flavor. If you like drones or missiles you crosstrain to the other or to Amarr or Minmatar. There will be no increase in drone bay for Caldari unless CCP wants to chuck out the whole backstory and racial flavor in the game. Your missiles will do some damage to a tackling frig and it will supplement your light drone damage. Turret boats don't get that benefit unless they are using their lower tier short range guns with web and scram and the frig is orbiting far enough out not to have enough angular motion, but still in short enough range for damage to apply. Oh and that's ignoring painters in the mix.

And really with, Cane 30 m3, Cyclone 40m3, Prophecy 25m3, Harby 50m3, Brutix 50m3, Myrm (it's a frigging drone boat), none of these is doing anything worse to frigs with drones except the Myrm as it should. Yeah all subcaps are limited to 5 lights (yes it did and still does have to do with server load even more than missiles) to attack frigs so the 5-25m3 is there for spares or an alternate flavor of light drone. I don't fill my entire 50m3 drone bay with 5 mediums that will never hit a tackling frig when needed.

And when you gave your example of downgrading guns, and the ability to downgrade guns, you flipped over from long range guns to short range guns. Try seeing if 650mm arty or quad beam or dual 150mm rail does any good in this regard.

It's a hell of a lot easier to fit a Drake with good anti-tackling frig utlity and tank than a Beam harby or Arty Cane or Rail Brutix. So you see the Drake does not have a frig problem. It has a Drake pilot mindset problem. "OMG I should have to lose a LSE?" "How will I ever survive with just a 76k ehp tank?" "Fit a couple tackling mods in my mids where tank should be?" "Nooooooo!" Lol

Recoil IV

Caldari Provisions

Caldari State

Likes received: 125

#5034 - 2012-10-21 16:36:49 UTC

Noemi Nagano wrote:

i have made a similiar comparison between a 720mm cane vs hm drake vs 250mm railgun.cane wins by far,drake beats brutix and cane beats all :D


Bouh Revetoile In Wreck we thrust Likes received: 554	#5035 - 2012-10-21 16:39:32 UTC 1 Anyway, 18-23km is the only window where your cane outdps the drake. Cool, very useful. Only use of arties is for alpha, not dps. That is the whole problem : dps difference between HML and turrets is not enough at close range (considering damage application), and too much at long range.

Jorma Morkkis

State War Academy

Caldari State

Likes received: 455

#5036 - 2012-10-21 16:45:09 UTC | Edited by: Jorma Morkkis

Noemi Nagano wrote:

Drake, with 3 BCS. Normally you end up with some CPU-issues if you want to stick with t2 in Drakes and take 3 damage mods

T2 isn't always better... You only need a cheap 1% CPU implant.

[Drake, Draek]

Internal Force Field Array I
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
J5 Prototype Warp Disruptor I
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
[Empty High slot]

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

Hobgoblin II x5

Noemi Nagano

Perkone

Caldari State

Likes received: 122

#5037 - 2012-10-21 16:47:29 UTC

Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Anyway, 18-23km is the only window where your cane outdps the drake. Cool, very useful.

Only use of arties is for alpha, not dps. That is the whole problem : dps difference between HML and turrets is not enough at close range (considering damage application), and too much at long range.

Thats your perception. The one of a non-Caldari, non-missile pilot. :) Very useful you gave us your opinion. Thanks. :)

Onictus

Federal Navy Academy

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 952

#5038 - 2012-10-21 16:54:24 UTC

Noemi Nagano wrote:

Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Thats your perception. The one of a non-Caldari, non-missile pilot. :) Very useful you gave us your opinion. Thanks. :)

About as useful as that hurricane fit.


Lili Lu Likes received: 779	#5039 - 2012-10-21 16:55:07 UTC 1 My god, why do Draek theads always end up as fitting advice to uncreative Drake pilots?


Jorma Morkkis State War Academy Caldari State Likes received: 455	#5040 - 2012-10-21 16:56:50 UTC Lili Lu wrote: My god, why do Draek theads always end up as fitting advice to uncreative Drake pilots? That's a very good question.

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