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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#4921 - 2012-10-19 20:09:59 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
[quote=MIrple]To be fair, I said before the only viable Torp BS atm is the Phoon, although I dont think its actually great because of the Torps, but because the rest is so good even with Torps it does not suck. But ok, I can accept the Phoon answer. As will everyone hopefully accept the fact the Phoon is not exactly a Caldari ship.

In my posting I furthermore asked for "Torps (in BS)" which somehow makes "SBs" not a really smart answer. HAM t3s might be ok, didnt see them rolling too much though, and for sure not in real numbers. They also have a price-tag. Sacrilege I never saw owning when I spent most of my time in lowsec. In one week I have a bit more time and might be more active, so will report if I see any changes. Apart from that, the Sacrilege is also a bit un-caldari in my opinion ...

So we end up with 1 Caldari t3, 1 Winmatar BS, and 2 Amarr ships (t2 and t3) which are viable missile PvP ships in the opinion of some. Which does not really seem to object my first statement .. :)

By the way, have you seen ? They are buffing HAM and Torps. Maybe they acknowledged these problems you are pointing already.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4922 - 2012-10-19 20:10:34 UTC
MIrple wrote:

How would you fix Torps/Cruise. In my mind they should be similar to how Artys work slow cycle time Very High Alpha. Cruise missiles need to have there flight speed increased and there flight time nerfed.


Agreed on that, although I fear it will not be enough to make them actually work .. but would be a first approach maybe.

MIrple wrote:

I think one other point that needs to be made is although Cadari do have missile ships they have an even slit that favors hybrids over missile based ships. This could have changes with the new patch though.


I dont exactly understand what you mean by that, could you explain?

The Rokh and the Naga are good ships in their roles, didnt say anything other. Still many Caldari would love them to be missile ships and have a similar good role as missile ships ...

The Moa sucks a bit, but will even fall back more after the proposed changes.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4923 - 2012-10-19 20:11:38 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
[quote=MIrple]To be fair, I said before the only viable Torp BS atm is the Phoon, although I dont think its actually great because of the Torps, but because the rest is so good even with Torps it does not suck. But ok, I can accept the Phoon answer. As will everyone hopefully accept the fact the Phoon is not exactly a Caldari ship.

In my posting I furthermore asked for "Torps (in BS)" which somehow makes "SBs" not a really smart answer. HAM t3s might be ok, didnt see them rolling too much though, and for sure not in real numbers. They also have a price-tag. Sacrilege I never saw owning when I spent most of my time in lowsec. In one week I have a bit more time and might be more active, so will report if I see any changes. Apart from that, the Sacrilege is also a bit un-caldari in my opinion ...

So we end up with 1 Caldari t3, 1 Winmatar BS, and 2 Amarr ships (t2 and t3) which are viable missile PvP ships in the opinion of some. Which does not really seem to object my first statement .. :)

By the way, have you seen ? They are buffing HAM and Torps. Maybe they acknowledged these problems you are pointing already.


Dont you see they are buffing some stats but *nerf* others??? Are you really so blind, or do you just dont know better?
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#4924 - 2012-10-19 20:16:46 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
MIrple wrote:

How would you fix Torps/Cruise. In my mind they should be similar to how Artys work slow cycle time Very High Alpha. Cruise missiles need to have there flight speed increased and there flight time nerfed.


Agreed on that, although I fear it will not be enough to make them actually work .. but would be a first approach maybe.

MIrple wrote:

I think one other point that needs to be made is although Cadari do have missile ships they have an even slit that favors hybrids over missile based ships. This could have changes with the new patch though.


I dont exactly understand what you mean by that, could you explain?

The Rokh and the Naga are good ships in their roles, didnt say anything other. Still many Caldari would love them to be missile ships and have a similar good role as missile ships ...

The Moa sucks a bit, but will even fall back more after the proposed changes.


If you go ship by ship through the Caldari lineup you will see that it is an almost even split between Hybrid ships and Missile ships with hybrid having a few more.

I have tried the new stats on the Moa it isn't as bad as people are saying. I will agree it is hard to fit for any sort of solo work but it is not a fail ship. This will have to wait until after the new combat cruiser stats come out to argue though.

I think the problem is for Caldari they think all the ships should be missile and cant wrap their heads around the idea of training for hybrids.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#4925 - 2012-10-19 20:28:00 UTC
MIrple wrote:
If you go ship by ship through the Caldari lineup you will see that it is an almost even split between Hybrid ships and Missile ships with hybrid having a few more.

I have tried the new stats on the Moa it isn't as bad as people are saying. I will agree it is hard to fit for any sort of solo work but it is not a fail ship. This will have to wait until after the new combat cruiser stats come out to argue though.

I think the problem is for Caldari they think all the ships should be missile and cant wrap their heads around the idea of training for hybrids.

I wasn't sure about this, but I would had bet it ! Caldari primary weapon system is hybrid weapons !!
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4926 - 2012-10-19 20:31:00 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:

Saying someone don't know what he is saying is hell of a lot easier than arguing I guess, but smart people don't care about *who* is saying something, but about *what* he is saying.

Each time you say "show your alt" or "you have no relevant experience", you are saying to us that you don't have an argument to oppose to us, so you are doing a personnal attack to discredit us.

That is very poor rhetoric.

Now, I already told why I think the buff to short range missiles will certainly be very effective. You only ever said you doubt it will be. Basically, you are affraid of losing your HML.

By the way, we already pointed out how HML won't ever be useless with these changes, and how exactly they are only "on par" (which mean, not really OP anymore, but still far superior to any long range medium size turret), and hence still very useful.

On a side note, "we won't have any other weapon to use" is both plain wrong (see short range missiles buffed + hybrid turrets) and absolutely not a reason not to nerf an OP weapon system.

But still, you will yell at will that caldari will be uterly useless if these changes hit TQ and support your assertion of "the drake is not OP" with the argument "a hurricane can defeat it with autocanon", which is a broken argumentation.


First - I wasnt the one who started this "combat alt" thing. But someone like Jorma really showed again and again (and then another time ..) how much he knows of PvP (epic highlight was this CM Raven). And so I think he should do what I did too. Telling us the truth about his alt. When I didnt do that first, everyone said "Noemi has no combat alt hooohoo", when I showed mine everyone said "woo, you suck with your highsec PvP" (not even looking at what I did over time with just this toon). And little Jorma boy shows nothing and no one complains. But yeah, he cant show anything, just because he got nothing but EFT and no clue.

Second: I never said the Drake is not OP because the Cane can defeat it with ACs ... you obviously didnt understand what I was posting. I said the Drake is not OP because it just has certain roles where it is good and others where it is NOT. And the roles where it shines are not really favoured in current meta game either, apart from null sec. Same goes for other ships. OP is a ship like the Machariel, which can simply leave the scene quite often if it should not be on the winning end. OP was a ship like the Dramiel before it got nerfed. Same reason. The Drake is not OP. It cant dictate anything ... it can do well if the enemy plays by its rules and it will die in fire if the enemy doesnt.

Third: Me and others showed how a mediocre system will not be enough, because there is no need to choose it if there are better options. I am pretty sure after this patch there wont be any need for medium or large missile PvP at all, because you can do all it can do better with some turrets.

Fourth: You fail to see - again and again! - how missiles really work, and which role ships play too. Isnt it revealing the only working Torp-BS is not Caldari, but Winmatar? Not that Winmatar need it, they have 2 fine Projectile BS already .. but they do have it. Caldari has the Rokh (which is good as a sniper) and have the Scorpion (which is good as ECM), and the Raven, which just sucks at everything than getting some insurance payout (for those who remember ..). Seriously, have you EVER used missiles and Caldari ships in Eve? Ever? If so, please tell which and where.

And fifth: its smarter to stop the conversation with someone who refuses to see facts (facts like the incoming nerfs of some stats and their impact) than to go on and on and on. I see the buffs some missiles will get. But I also see the nerfs. And I know the Caldari ships which use those weapons. I know them from flying them, trying stuff with them and seeing how they fail to do what they should. And so I think I am in a much better position to see the impact of those changes than you are. Again, I might be wrong. But I doubt it.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4927 - 2012-10-19 20:32:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
[quote=MIrple]To be fair, I said before the only viable Torp BS atm is the Phoon, although I dont think its actually great because of the Torps, but because the rest is so good even with Torps it does not suck. But ok, I can accept the Phoon answer. As will everyone hopefully accept the fact the Phoon is not exactly a Caldari ship.

In my posting I furthermore asked for "Torps (in BS)" which somehow makes "SBs" not a really smart answer. HAM t3s might be ok, didnt see them rolling too much though, and for sure not in real numbers. They also have a price-tag. Sacrilege I never saw owning when I spent most of my time in lowsec. In one week I have a bit more time and might be more active, so will report if I see any changes. Apart from that, the Sacrilege is also a bit un-caldari in my opinion ...

So we end up with 1 Caldari t3, 1 Winmatar BS, and 2 Amarr ships (t2 and t3) which are viable missile PvP ships in the opinion of some. Which does not really seem to object my first statement .. :)

By the way, have you seen ? They are buffing HAM and Torps. Maybe they acknowledged these problems you are pointing already.


Dont you see they are buffing some stats but *nerf* others??? Are you really so blind, or do you just dont know better?

Only thing I see getting worse is Rage (torp and assault) loosing half a KM range and explosion radius bloom, though if you are using HML's now you probably have GMP trained and can get a better explosion radius than before.

Edit, missed the Assault rage explosion velocity nerf. Though still, more damage and lower explosion radius.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4928 - 2012-10-19 20:37:02 UTC
MIrple wrote:


If you go ship by ship through the Caldari lineup you will see that it is an almost even split between Hybrid ships and Missile ships with hybrid having a few more.

I have tried the new stats on the Moa it isn't as bad as people are saying. I will agree it is hard to fit for any sort of solo work but it is not a fail ship. This will have to wait until after the new combat cruiser stats come out to argue though.

I think the problem is for Caldari they think all the ships should be missile and cant wrap their heads around the idea of training for hybrids.


Hybrid a few more? Are you serious?

Now please show me how you came to that. I am really curious now. For BS for example I see 2 Navy and 2 tech 1 hulls with missiles, 2 tech 2 hulls with missiles and 1 tech 1 hull for Rails. Makes it 6 to 1 for missiles ...

I agree with you about the thing though many Caldari refused to train Hybrids, but I told you why - they sucked hard for a long time, and if you had to go for turrets you wouldnt go Hybrid but better train Lasers or Projectiles (which got insanely buffed after sucking a bit too for a while).
Sigras
Conglomo
#4929 - 2012-10-19 20:38:45 UTC
Xamiakas wrote:
why exactly are you nerfing missiles again? they`re never the top damagers anywhere nor good for intercepting stuff.. actually missiles except torps have the lowest dps and take ages to reach the targets unless they`re pointblank .. yet u`re nerfing the range.. nerfing the dps and ******* up explosion radius.. thus making missiles obsolete.. while in previous patches u were buffing the guns.. logic in that?

I love posts like this . . . you guys are idiots

This change is a buff to every single missile system except the HML

They are not nerfing missiles, they are buffing missiles, theyre nerfing the HML
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4930 - 2012-10-19 20:41:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Noemi Nagano wrote:
To be fair, I said before the only viable Torp BS atm is the Phoon, although I dont think its actually great because of the Torps, but because the rest is so good even with Torps it does not suck. But ok, I can accept the Phoon answer. As will everyone hopefully accept the fact the Phoon is not exactly a Caldari ship.


Yes, it's a Minmatar ship.

In pvp Typhoon is more often seen in torp/neut setup. You don't see very often torp/1400mm setups outside of level 4 dps support role (and even there it's cruise/1400mm).
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4931 - 2012-10-19 20:45:27 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:


Only thing I see getting worse is Rage (torp and assault) loosing half a KM range and explosion radius bloom, though if you are using HML's now you probably have GMP trained and can get a better explosion radius than before.

Edit, missed the Assault rage explosion velocity nerf. Though still, more damage and lower explosion radius.


With GMP at level 5 you will be a little bit better of than now, yes. With level 4 you wont. But explosion velo of HAM rage is not yet in this equation, and: they didnt rock before, how should they rock now with just a tiny improvement in one part (assuming GMP 5) but in the same time a range reduction (although not a big one) and a nerf in Explo Velo? I tell you what happens. They might be a bit better in Legions and Tengus. But for Caldari tech 1 hulls (and tech 2) they will suck like before (going for the HAMs) and for Torps, maybe the Phoon can use em. Caldari will not have any benefit. Believe me or not, you will see how I was right when its too late to change ("we cant adjust this at the moment, because we have to bring some mining stuff into balance first" or whatever lame excuse they will have for not repairing Caldari missile PvP).
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4932 - 2012-10-19 20:51:20 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Xamiakas wrote:
why exactly are you nerfing missiles again? they`re never the top damagers anywhere nor good for intercepting stuff.. actually missiles except torps have the lowest dps and take ages to reach the targets unless they`re pointblank .. yet u`re nerfing the range.. nerfing the dps and ******* up explosion radius.. thus making missiles obsolete.. while in previous patches u were buffing the guns.. logic in that?

I love posts like this . . . you guys are idiots

This change is a buff to every single missile system except the HML

They are not nerfing missiles, they are buffing missiles, theyre nerfing the HML


This statement as a whole is not true. They are buffing certain aspects of some missiles, and nerfing other aspects too. Please dont generalise. Do the numbers for Torps and HAM, and CM and see how they will all ... continue to suck in any Caldari hull. The GMP-buff is mostly eaten up by nerfs, range for rage is reduced, overall application is not really improved.

The only ship which might be working could be the HAM Tengu, not really sure about that one. Can use it, so maybe will give it a try. But should that be the way to go, making a t3 the only working missile ship in med and large size? :) (HAM Drake will IMO not be of any importance in anything but show case 1on1s, where it might be better than now, but I still doubt that).
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4933 - 2012-10-19 20:57:20 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
The only ship which might be working could be the HAM Tengu, not really sure about that one. Can use it, so maybe will give it a try. But should that be the way to go, making a t3 the only working missile ship in med and large size? :)


How would current situation change? Nothing would change.

Currently Tengu can be used for everything.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4934 - 2012-10-19 21:10:42 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
The only ship which might be working could be the HAM Tengu, not really sure about that one. Can use it, so maybe will give it a try. But should that be the way to go, making a t3 the only working missile ship in med and large size? :)


How would current situation change? Nothing would change.

Currently Tengu can be used for everything.


Of course there would be a change - Drake will not be viable anymore. So Caldari missile PvP will be not happening in tech 1 hulls any more above frig size. And seriously - tell me your combat alt. :)
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4935 - 2012-10-19 21:16:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:


Only thing I see getting worse is Rage (torp and assault) loosing half a KM range and explosion radius bloom, though if you are using HML's now you probably have GMP trained and can get a better explosion radius than before.

Edit, missed the Assault rage explosion velocity nerf. Though still, more damage and lower explosion radius.


With GMP at level 5 you will be a little bit better of than now, yes. With level 4 you wont. But explosion velo of HAM rage is not yet in this equation, and: they didnt rock before, how should they rock now with just a tiny improvement in one part (assuming GMP 5) but in the same time a range reduction (although not a big one) and a nerf in Explo Velo? I tell you what happens. They might be a bit better in Legions and Tengus. But for Caldari tech 1 hulls (and tech 2) they will suck like before (going for the HAMs) and for Torps, maybe the Phoon can use em. Caldari will not have any benefit. Believe me or not, you will see how I was right when its too late to change ("we cant adjust this at the moment, because we have to bring some mining stuff into balance first" or whatever lame excuse they will have for not repairing Caldari missile PvP).

I'm getting slightly better explosion radius at lvl 4:

Rage Torp
Old EV: 650
New EV (No skills): 774
New EV (GMP lvl 4): 774 * 0.8 = 619.2

Rage HAM
Old EV: 180
New EV (No skills): 215
New EV (GMP lvl 4): 215 * 0.8 = 172

Looking at torps: GMP lvl 3 gets closer to the old values but is slightly worse than current (about 1.2% greater EV than current), while lvl V gives a close to 11% reduction from current. Added to this would be rigs and implants that now apply as well.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4936 - 2012-10-19 21:29:08 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:


Only thing I see getting worse is Rage (torp and assault) loosing half a KM range and explosion radius bloom, though if you are using HML's now you probably have GMP trained and can get a better explosion radius than before.

Edit, missed the Assault rage explosion velocity nerf. Though still, more damage and lower explosion radius.


With GMP at level 5 you will be a little bit better of than now, yes. With level 4 you wont. But explosion velo of HAM rage is not yet in this equation, and: they didnt rock before, how should they rock now with just a tiny improvement in one part (assuming GMP 5) but in the same time a range reduction (although not a big one) and a nerf in Explo Velo? I tell you what happens. They might be a bit better in Legions and Tengus. But for Caldari tech 1 hulls (and tech 2) they will suck like before (going for the HAMs) and for Torps, maybe the Phoon can use em. Caldari will not have any benefit. Believe me or not, you will see how I was right when its too late to change ("we cant adjust this at the moment, because we have to bring some mining stuff into balance first" or whatever lame excuse they will have for not repairing Caldari missile PvP).

I'm getting slightly better explosion radius at lvl 4:
Rage Torp
Old EV: 650
New EV (No skills): 774
New EV (GMP lvl 4): 774 * 0.8 = 619.2

Rage HAM
Old EV: 180
New EV (No skills): 215
New EV (GMP lvl 4): 215 * 0.8 = 172


I stand corrected then: with l4 you will be better (by a very small margin). Doesnt change the fact its not really a buff, esp. with HAMs and explo velo nerf ...
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4937 - 2012-10-19 21:31:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Noemi Nagano wrote:

I stand corrected then: with l4 you will be better (by a very small margin). Doesnt change the fact its not really a buff, esp. with HAMs and explo velo nerf ...

It's more of a meta buff as you now can 1) use other means to further help damage projection and 2) can start shifting reliance to webs to ensure full application rather than NEEDING both web AND TP
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#4938 - 2012-10-19 21:37:48 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
The Rokh and the Naga are good ships in their roles, didnt say anything other. Still many Caldari would love them to be missile ships and have a similar good role as missile ships ...

The Moa sucks a bit, but will even fall back more after the proposed changes.

Though missiles are not turrets. Missiles won't ever be exactly like turrets, but still, they can have a role. But this role is not "everything" like the current role of HML.

Do you know cruise raven outdps almost all turret ships at 70 or 80km and above ? The only exception is the Naga (a caldari ship). And cruise missiles go to more than 8000m/s with this ship : the speed of tengu or cerberus heavy missiles.

IMO, this delay was a problem in the past, but nowdays, I doubt it.

HAM Drake already outdps a hurricane at 12km.

Torps ? It's basicaly blasters with range. The only drawback was damage application.

Now, damage application will be buffed, and seeing how these systems were used, it's certainly a good thing, but going too far could be desastrous. When the changes will hit the test server, we will figure out if that was enough.

BTW, the "nerf" you see on HAM and Torp is only a slight reduction in range of high damage ammo (supposed to be used on large target), which ones also receive a buff to damage. The explosion radius "nerf" is only here to make it remain the same after the new skill applyed.

For the Moa, there is no way it suck after the changes. It may even be better than the Thorax.

Fun fact : a lot (a very lot) of your alt's kills in low sec are in drake. It seems to be rather effective here, even out of blob warfare, doesn't it ? Don't be affraid, it will still be.
Lili Lu
#4939 - 2012-10-19 21:41:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
MIrple wrote:
Please post your combat alt as well as Eve Kill does not have any stats on you


This is her main.
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17718520

And talking about "Winmatar" superiority... Someone got schooled by Blue Republic.

Correction. Alleged/claimed combat main. That character has made only one post ever according to Eve-search, and here it is,
http://eve-search.com/thread/33177-1/page/1#8 in a recruitment thread:

"Awesome corp and alliance...almost as fun as the time i chucked grandma off Brighton Pier..."

Agreed, if that is indeed Noemi's character one would think he would be hopping mad over the Cane nerf and not give a rats ass about the HM nerf. Also, you tell me, does that sound like Noemi? It certainly doesn't sound like Noemi's previous attempts at humor itt. Likewise, I haven't gathered any indication from his posts itt that tells me Noemi lives in the UK. And, Noemi strikes me as not a native english speaker. Which is not to say that Noemi isn't writing much better than I could write in whatever his native language is. It's of course the content of the posts that is problematic.P

Regardless, until that character posts in this thread and proclaims "I am the Noemi Nagano of much repetitive posting itt" I will remain skeptical that Noemi does indeed have any pvp experience.

Come on Noemi, do eet. Win a victory over my taunting at least.P

edit - and to all the intervening Noemi posts, I've clocked out for a while. I really don't want to expend more effort atm to dissect the flaws in his latest arguments. I'm sure they've already been presented and countered anyway in this monster thread on some earlier page.Lol
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#4940 - 2012-10-19 21:44:37 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
I stand corrected then: with l4 you will be better (by a very small margin). Doesnt change the fact its not really a buff, esp. with HAMs and explo velo nerf ...

You can also do like everyone with turret : use faction ammo instead of T2 high damage ones when you have to hit smaller stuff ; thse don't see ANY nerf, only the buffs. HAM also get a PG buff BTW.