Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Oh no, Noemi. I've answered your whiney question more twice already.

No, I will not leave this thread once you post with your alleged pvp character. I will only lose that criticism of your flawed arguments. So do it. Take that ammo away from me. At least have that victory. But you will still have me calling you on your bullshit here in this thread.

edit - Jorma does not appear on my radar as a poster of bad arguments. So I don't care. I don't know why he doesn't post with a character that has a pvp record. If you care by all means continue to ask him or criticize him however you want.

Vargurs and Macahariels are very good indeed. But I think you miss why. It has to do with the overdone buff to falloff on TE IIs. I have never thought it should have been so skewed. It should not be giving only a 15% optimal but a 30% falloff bonus. I think CCP should trim that back to 25% or 20% on falloff. A little tweak like that can do a lot to restore some balance on why people opt for ac. AC on so many ships that even have bonuses for something else.

Regardless, I would rather fly a missile ship against Sanshas (that may change in the future with TD changes) and I do, a cruise phoon.

Zealots are used also in lowsec. Pirate alliances love AHACs there. No bubbles and fleets sizes allow the AHACs to survive without getting volleyed by any turret or HM drake blobs. Again, you cannot ascribe all of the eve-kill stats to nullsec use. Nullsec use may have a dispropotionate representation on it's stats, but we don't know. Eve-kill is open to and is used by alliances and corporations throughout the eve universe. If eve-kill would break the top 20 down by sec status of where kills occur we might. But at this point I think most of us would just like an eve-kill that stays online.

Cruises work fine. As I said, when I can stomach missioning again, my favorite ship is the cruise phoon. Could they use some further buffing. Sure they might. I would love it. And so would people flying caldari ships that use them. But for the most part that will have to wait for BS rebalancing to start. In the meantime Ravenkind and Navy Scorps etc are hardly bad for pve.

For pvp the whole picture may change. Minmatar may end up with a missile BC and already has the phoon. Minmatar in general appears to be getting a line of missile boats. Hell they might even make the Tempest more like the phoon in that it could fit missiles and even a shield tank like the Raven. We don't know what the BS rebalance will bring.

As for your list of caldari ships you claim are broken. So what. Do you really think Caldari is the only race to have that? FFS look for Gallente ships on eve-kill. Is anyone thrilled with rail boats for pve? Where are beams in all this? Or drone boats in pvp? But that's just it. A game where everyone gravitates to a couple ships is not healthy. That is what we have had with Drakes and Tengus. Part of the reason for that was the HM imbalance. HM were simply so much better than other long range medium weapons as the OP and many following posts have shown.

Meanwhile Drakes could even use those HMs to compete with large short range weapons. They couldn't match, but they were good enough that people would and do fly drakes against BSs. The weapon system and the tank. The weapon system is being addressed now. The tank I suspect will be addressed later when they start work on the BC hull bonuses. The Drake may end up retaining its resist bonus. But it certainly might have a lower base hp for shield. Likewise All BCs may lose the skewed op shield regen time they currently have.

I guess my post to OT was a way of saying, believe me, I know about waiting years for a broken line of ships to get fixed. Amarr waited years in the toilet. So I have some empathy for having broken ships, but little sympathy for premature complaints that probably won't last anywhere near as long. I doubt Caldari will have to wait for more than a year to get decent missile BSs. And anyway, the Rokh is already fleet worthy. So, Noemi, cry me a river. You've lived many years with some op'd stuff. If you are consigned to middling or worse for a short period, while hopefully we all end up with better balanced game, then that's quite fair.

edit- and you consistently ignore the buffs that are occuring to missiles along with this HM nerf. They are not negligible. And will be even more so with whatever TC/TE stats are introduced for missiles. So what if you will be potentially subject to TDs along with it. My bet is that TD will be made efficacious only on bonused ships. We will all be looking out for those then like we currently do for ecm boats. Welcome to the club.

Ok, so lighter hull are irrelevant... When you speak about balance, you should explain what is your picture. I can assure you that light hull are pretty relevant pvp things.

But ok, let's go to cruisers and above : HAM. I shouldn't have anything more to say. Can you at least state what problems you see with HAM, torp and CM ?

Remember, a skill will apply to all short range missiles, and they will be able to use their T2 ammo without penalties to the ship. HAM fitting have been reduced too.

Now, about the Caracal and the Bellicose : First, this is not the thread to discuss them (go spam the other threads) ; second, Something not working is not a reason to not balance something OP ; third, the bellicose have one less launcher, same number of mid (-1 for the painter), and same number of mids, all it have over the caracal is speed, and it's not a large margin.

Torp now, with skill applyed, will have a better explosion radius, 360m. Even BC will be murdered, and cruisers with TP will suffer greatly. With long javelin torpedos, you will hit at 40km, pretty much like autocanons, but without falloff.

If that doesn't suit you, then explain why, instead of crying for HML. Fix what is broken, and stop defending what shouldn't be.

If you think the Bellicose is better than the Caracal, then you're literally facetarded. The Caracal's missile velocity bonus allows kiting HAM fits and lets AML fits effectively engage MWDing frigates. Then there's the small matter of 25% more raw DPS from the extra launcher...

But again, the machariel and vargur strength stops looking so much if TE falloff gets another look. I think I saw a deve comment that they were reconsidering it. Can't remember where it was though.

There should be no king of pve. At least not any one ship. But over the length of my time in eve Caldari as a race has been king of pve. It started with Ravens. Then went to tengus. Machariels and Vargurs only really entered that realm with the TE falloff buff.

Cruises are weak in pvp. For a long time though, as long as I was able to get away with it, I wnet out in sniper BS fleets in a cruise phoon. It had the range, and one just had to accept that some strategic switching to a secondary was needed, and even then it would not be near the top on killmails very often. Of course close range fits can pump out a lot of damage. And for those it would be torps. Torps are never meant to be a ranged weapon. Even on a range bonused ship torps, blasters, ac, and pulse should not be hitting reliably past 30km imo. That pulses can, is an artifact of the heavy use of tracking mods and rigs and ship bonuses creating that. And that can conflict with tank and damage. So if a future torp boat does that it should be due to TEs and rigs.

I don't understand how you keep missing that GMP skill will soon apply to rockets, HAMs, and Torps. That is an amazing buff. TBH I think it is another reason they delayed the TE changes for missiles. We really need to see what is going to happen with missiles and the new bonuses various ships will have to judge what percentages the new tracking mods should have for missiles. The potential for op'd torps etc is very possible. Some things in eve have a very narrow tolerance range between worthless and op. It is a wonderfully complex game in that regard.

Both the new Bellicose and Caracal are excellent examples of the brave new world we will be entering with the new missile changes. Both these ships could turn out to be very powerful. Missiles are definitely one of those things in eve that have that narrow band of tolerance between worthless and op. And I can't yet perceive either as miles better than the other.

As for the Moa, I'll just link this post, https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2056913#post2056913 and https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1995793#post1995793 . Fozzie posted that the fittings on support cruisers will be getting a change due to a blog post showing how the Scythe would end up so much better to field than a Scimitar. So they are reading all these threads. There was already an adjustment to the original op in this thread. But don't get your hopes up that continued complaining will induce another set of changes. The current iteration is probably what will go to the test server. And then it might get altered after testing there.

This points up something I am glad to see. They appear quite aware to adjust a buff downward if someone can show how the numbers will make the buff op. That is a very good thing. Underpowered ships can just be not flown and thus have much less of a negative effect on the game. OP ships, brought about by buffs, can severly and adversely affect the game. The old Dramiels, the present 100mn Tengus, the old snipe range Falcons. Things like these break games. Underpowered ships are much easier to buff up later. OP ships get a bunch of players gravitating into them and enjoying their use. And thus they get a huge and vocal lobbying contingent. It becomes much harder for CCP to then nerf them. Another example, witness this 244 page thread.

My concern is pretty straightforward. So please hear me out!

Drakes and Caldari ships as a general rule are the worst PvP ships as is. Wouldn't this make an already terrible PvP ship (Drake) even worse? That said, the drake's only big advantage is PvE. These changes to damage will take even that away.

My suggestion is to change it so that the HMs only do maximum damage after reaching a certan distance (30km). That way they can be kept as long-range (for a cruiser) and respectable dps. Furthermore, within the short-range block, the HAML will have the advantage.

I personally found the flight time of the HMs to be annoying at range. Also, that my quoted range and actual were two different. For example, if it said I could hit within 58 km it wouldn't be till ~48 km till anything useful. Will that still be the case and if so, that needs to be fixed or investigated. Especially, if the range of the HMs is being nerfed.

Thanks for your time and attention!

Ok will you please come with some new points or just shut the hell up.. Both sides.

its been a hundred pages since something new was said in here, now you're just endlessly going in circles..

For blitzing too? If you only care about isk/hr you're going to blitz missions. Tengu is best for the job.
And why should BC (Drake) be able to do missions designed for BSs (L4s)?



Problem is:
Tengu has range and dps
Loki has tank and dps
Legion lacks range, dps and tank
Proteus lacks range and dps

I'd still pick any BS for the job though.

And don't get me wrong. I'm not saying T3s should be as effective as BS in L4 missions. In fact Legion is probably closest of what T3s should be compared to their race's T2 line up. Legion isn't huge improvement over T2s and in some areas even flat out inferior (neut subsystem).

no it does not revolve around hml.and another true story : ccp actualy is forcing people into training various stuff some by nerfing them aswell becauseb by doing so they are also forcing people to have their account active more active.for example,me going inactive and having hm trained to maximum and right now being a fairly good weapon system.when i come back i find out i have to train another suitable weapon system thus forcing to have your account active at all time.i`m not saying you cant go inactive,you can.but its my opionion.also the removal of ghost training proved that ccp wants you to pay the subscription in order to keep skilling.wich in my opionion is not really fair either.i may be wrong but i dont really care.its my opinion and i`m sticking to it.

also you`re wrong.there will be a lot of protesting and mass unsubscribing.

No there won't be mass unsubscribing. There has not been mass unsubscribing with any previous rebalancing/nerfing. There has been mass complaining on the forums. And it will happen again because there are many like you who thought a game should be easy enough to hear about or figure out which weapon system is op and allows you to run about everything in the game, then train just that weapon system. This change restores balance such that there will no longer be any one weapon system that allows anyone to do about everything in the game. People will just train other missile skills to compensate after they whine. Or they will finally understand the wisdom of having both gunnery and missile skills.

As for ghost training, having had ghost training was the dumbest business move CCP ever made (well, except for that proposed and thankfully abandoned, game change which did create mass unsubscribing, the F2P P2W fiasco). It's very simple, you have to pay to have your character improve. Most games do that through requiring play time and repetitive grinding of in-game actions. Improvement in eve though is tied to time. Thus the improvment had to be tied to subscription in order for the company to make money. The elimination of ghost training was the single best business move I've seen since I've been playing here from 2006.

It really is no big deal that you may now have to train Cruise spec, or HAM spec, etc to continue to do what you currently do only with HM spec. Missile specs are much easier to train than the gunnery trees. And all the support missile skills you have already trained for HMs already are or will now become transferrable to all the other missile specs. The addition of GMP to affecting all missiles is a huge buff to rockets, HAMs, and torps. That alone is going to shake up things quite unpredictably and however it does shake out it is an accross the board buff for missile use.