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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4821 - 2012-10-18 08:08:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Ellen Stavinski wrote:
I am saying that since I am a quite new player who has picked up Caldari, shield tanking and heavy missiles as primary...

Finally after 6 months of training ships tree, shields, missiles I have reach my Nighthawk !...


Just be happy you didn't start as Amarr...

Do you know what I did after 6 months? I was struggling to complete level 3s in my new Harbinger with T1 guns.

Malango wrote:
They're ******* aggro too. and drones. people like me that have **** gunnery and great drone skills are ******. as the rats will aggro my drones meaning i can's mission and will leave eve.


People should do missions with friends. It's more fun anyway.

I've never lost drones to sleepers. Sleepers are known for their drone hate. Probably because they seem to hate RR/ewar even more.

Noemi Nagano wrote:
Large long range: gunnery wins (and gunnery wins there by a margin you dont even see missiles at all)


Could you show me 300 km Rokh or Naga? Just so we can compare it to 300 km Raven. Yeah, I know shooting beyond 250km is impossible but in theory Raven could shoot that far.
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#4822 - 2012-10-18 08:46:06 UTC
MIrple wrote:

You need to fix the weapon before you can balance ships around it. Look at the Caracal for proof. I know it sucks to finally get into a ship and then see it nerfed. I bet CCP Foozie fixes the NH this time around but if not train for HAM and wait for the next round of balancing. It will all work out in the end.


CCP has not earned this level of trust, certainly not from Caldari players.

My advice to Caldari pilots is different than yours and probably far more productive. Don't wait for CCP to fix anything, and certainly nothing Caldari. It's not going to happen any time soon if at all.

Switch your training immediately to some other race. I suggest Gallante (the hybrids will dovetail nicely with the Caldari ships you can already fly) but Minmatar will do as well. Gallente have an exceptional assortment of actual working ships. They've got T1 Frigates, AF's, Interceptors, Cruisers, HACs, Recons, and even BSs -- all are fantastic. The same can be said for the Minmatar. With either race you cannot go wrong. And unlike Caldari and missile skills, when you train gunnery you are training a pool of support skills that apply to every race in the game. It's an exceptional foundation.

I did this a long time ago and I have never looked back. Had I waited for CCP to fix things then I would STILL BE WAITING today. Instead of spending my time enjoying the game and doing PvP, I would be stuck flying a Drake, waiting for CCP to nerf it, and reading comments from folks about how it's okay because one day CCP will make things right.

But I didn't wait and neither should you.

I only regret the wasted points I put into things like Missiles and Caldari ship command. If CCP offered a refund I would take that deal in a second and never look back.
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#4823 - 2012-10-18 09:05:28 UTC
MIrple wrote:
Crazy Nymphora wrote:


How long do you think it would take them to actually balance ships after screwing up their weapon system? I'm quite new to this game so I don't know, but my friend said it usually takes CCP 6 years to actually "fix" things they broke. I don't think many people are happy to wait that long for their beloved stuff to get fixed.

What if we ask for a bit of Drake/Tengu/Nighthawk buff on DPS/Range to balance it because the nerf was too much? Obviously CCP won't listen and trolls will troll.

That's what we get, Ellen Stavinski. If you don't like it, I'd honestly recommend you to quit, don't listen to those trolls, they will say something like "don't cry, quit already, no one cares", they only are trying to hold you back from quitting so you can feed them more.

Don't pay for something you don't enjoy and don't feed the trolls.


The old CCP would take 6 years to fix this. The new CCP I would say by the next expansion. You do not need a DPS/Range buff on the Drake/Tengue/Nighthawk you need to understand that HM are a long range weapon system and need to be treated as such. There have been countless post about how with the changes they are now inline with other medium long range weapon systems. Switch to HAMS on the Drake and Tengue if you want higher Damage. The Nighthawk needs some love the Cerb does to but that is known and on the radar.


There is absolutely no reason to believe this. If CCP introduced a bug that caused Caldari ships to explode whenever you activated their weapons, they would fix it by increasing the falloff on Minmatar Autocannons.

Read the new Combat Cruisers proposal and actually look at their ideas for the "improved" Moa. Compare it to the other ships and look at the numbers. It's obvious that CCP doesn't even know what this thing is supposed to do. This is their idea of balance. The same applies to the Caracal. The new Minmatar EWAR cruiser is, in virtually every way, a better Missile Cruiser than the Caldari Missile Cruiser. If you think flying a slow cruiser with no drones, no neuts, no tank, and frigate DPS sounds great, then the super-Caracal is for you. If not, fly the new Bellicose and enjoy a fast cruiser with more dps, drones, a neut, a target painter bonus, and a comparable tank.

Again, this is CCPs idea of balance when it comes to the Caldari. And it's not going to change. This IS the balance pass for these ships. When it goes live, that's it. It's entirely possible that they will never touch them again during the life of this rapidly aging game. The same applies to the dozen or so other broken Caldari hulls. It's entirely possible that they will never get fixed. They've been broken for YEARS now, and CCP hasn't said one word about fixing them.

Rather than feeding new players a bunch of feel-good nonsense, tell them the truth. They are far better served to switch to one of the other working races. CCP has written off the Caldari and they should as well.

And yes, it really is that simple.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4824 - 2012-10-18 09:08:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Noemi Nagano
Jorma Morkkis wrote:


Could you show me 300 km Rokh or Naga? Just so we can compare it to 300 km Raven. Yeah, I know shooting beyond 250km is impossible but in theory Raven could shoot that far.


Seriously, if you mix CM and Ravens in the context of PvP, you have to say nothing else than: they. just. suck. Maybe you will need bigger letters. But I hope you got the message: RAVENS AND CM SUCK IN PVP. They suck so much they will not even lose, because no one flies them in PvP.

I see even more why *you* dont post your combat alt - you simply dont have any. :) Statements like that of Ravens outranging Nagas in theory show very well you have not much clue of whats going on. And no, I dont deny the statement itself. But bringing it here in a discussion of whats happening IN GAME and how it should be changed/balanced is just ridiculous, at best.

And to that postings of OT Smithers: Read them, understand them and follow his suggestions. He is right. Which is a shame, for CCP, but still truth.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#4825 - 2012-10-18 10:53:27 UTC
so am i the only one whos trained more chars INTO missiles and caldari after the coming of this change??

lol

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#4826 - 2012-10-18 10:55:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
OT Smithers wrote:
There is absolutely no reason to believe this. If CCP introduced a bug that caused Caldari ships to explode whenever you activated their weapons, they would fix it by increasing the falloff on Minmatar Autocannons.

Read the new Combat Cruisers proposal and actually look at their ideas for the "improved" Moa. Compare it to the other ships and look at the numbers. It's obvious that CCP doesn't even know what this thing is supposed to do. This is their idea of balance. The same applies to the Caracal. The new Minmatar EWAR cruiser is, in virtually every way, a better Missile Cruiser than the Caldari Missile Cruiser. If you think flying a slow cruiser with no drones, no neuts, no tank, and frigate DPS sounds great, then the super-Caracal is for you. If not, fly the new Bellicose and enjoy a fast cruiser with more dps, drones, a neut, a target painter bonus, and a comparable tank.

Again, this is CCPs idea of balance when it comes to the Caldari. And it's not going to change. This IS the balance pass for these ships. When it goes live, that's it. It's entirely possible that they will never touch them again during the life of this rapidly aging game. The same applies to the dozen or so other broken Caldari hulls. It's entirely possible that they will never get fixed. They've been broken for YEARS now, and CCP hasn't said one word about fixing them.

Rather than feeding new players a bunch of feel-good nonsense, tell them the truth. They are far better served to switch to one of the other working races. CCP has written off the Caldari and they should as well.

And yes, it really is that simple.

What is pitiful is that someone can fly missile boat for years and don't even know how they work.
What is even more sad is that someone can fly a race for years and don't even train for it's secondary weapon system, thus abandoning HALF the ships he can fly.

PS : all caldari ship after the rebalancing are hell of a lot more than deadly (see merlin/condor).
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#4827 - 2012-10-18 10:58:36 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
so am i the only one whos trained more chars INTO missiles and caldari after the coming of this change??

lol

You're certainly not the only one with a brain, but the more loudy people are those who are upset, and anger often plug off the brain.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4828 - 2012-10-18 11:06:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Statements like that of Ravens outranging Nagas in theory show very well you have not much clue of whats going on.


[Raven, Raven fit]

Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Sensor Booster II
Large Shield Extender II
EM Ward Field II

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]

Large Rocket Fuel Cache Partition II
Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Large Core Defense Field Extender I


Zainou 'Snapshot' Cruise Missiles CM-605
Zainou 'Deadeye' Missile Projection MP-706

But of course main problem is that you want missile to work like turrets: instant damage.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#4829 - 2012-10-18 11:06:20 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Repeat after me : "Heavy. Assault. Missiles."

HML are not the only weapon in game, nor the only missiles weapon. HAM will be brutal.


HML are, atm, the only missilesystem in MEDIUM or LARGE size which is actually WORKING for Caldari missile ships. I agree with you there are more types: HAM, Torps and CM. Torps work in bombers, thats it. The others simply dont work in Caldari missile ships. With "working" I mean being on par with their peers or being better in certain aspects while not sucking completely in others.

For gunnery its mostly accepted nearly every medium and large system works, although medium long range guns are outshined in certain ranges by HML right now.

So atm we have this picture:

Medium short range: gunnery wins

Medium long range: missile wins

Large short range: gunnery wins

Large long range: gunnery wins (and gunnery wins there by a margin you dont even see missiles at all)

I think, tbh, this is not balanced. I furthermore think this will be even worse after the patch. Thats because I dont see yet HAM will take the top then in medium short range. But if it does NOT, then gunnery wins all the 4, since HML will get nerfed ... remember: there is no reason to use something which is not at least on par.

While I agree with the fact HML is best in its class in ranges of 35km til max missile ranges it still suffers the delayed damage which *is* an issue on longer ranges. When you warp all in air missiles will miss, and thats when you push the "warp" button, not when you actually warp where it makes sense. Thats not the same with gunnery for example ..

Lets face it. Right now there is only one option for Caldari missile users in PvP medium or large hulls. Thats HML. If this system will get screwed AND HAM will not take a leading place in medium short range (which I doubt it will), then Caldari missile PvP in medium and large hulls is dead until they rebalance again.

I dont think this is the way to go. And many others here agree with me.

Just imagine again, please. Its like taking all useful gunnery options of a certain race, without giving anything back and just say "we have to do this so we can balance everything around that sometime later". One difference though - you can still use ALL your gunnery support skills, and simply train another gunnery tree and the ships which are needed.

So, in fact, you know HML are OP, but because you believe HML is the only working system and because you haven't read the OP or didn't understand how the changes will improve short range missiles, you think HML need to be OP and obsolete a whole class of guns only for caldari to have a weapon to do their lvl4 missions ? And you don't care about pvp and balance.

Thank you very much for admiting it.

But reasonable people posting here look at the whole picture of things, not only caldari missiles. And if some missiles have a problem, the way to do things is to fix those missiles, not to leave an OP system alone just for the sake of it.

Small missiles are brutal (all of them will be after when wintor will come, see light missiles buff), HAM will be brutal (see winter changes for HAM, yes close range have some constraints, but you will use to them, like everyone else), and Torpedos will be brutal (see winter changes). HML will be on par (see this thread), and that will leave cruise missiles with some needed work. Can't you wait for one more month for them to be rebalanced ?
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#4830 - 2012-10-18 11:07:41 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:

But of course main problem is that you want missile to work like turrets: instant damage.

Quote for truth.

Missiles are differents, with inherent drawback and advantages, that doesn't mean they have to be OP.
Recoil IV
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4831 - 2012-10-18 13:45:43 UTC
ccp doesnt have the balls to nerf missiles.an if they do,they will be ones to suffer because of mass unsubscribing,riots just like when cq replaced ship spinning hangar.
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4832 - 2012-10-18 13:51:03 UTC
Hey, Recoil IV, has your avatar smelled something bad or are you in a permament state af rage?
Recoil IV
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4833 - 2012-10-18 13:53:37 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Hey, Recoil IV, has your avatar smelled something bad or are you in a permament state af rage?



rage
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4834 - 2012-10-18 13:55:34 UTC
Recoil IV wrote:
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Hey, Recoil IV, has your avatar smelled something bad or are you in a permament state af rage?



rage


The perfect ship for you is surely a Rage HAM Drake then. :nod:
Recoil IV
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4835 - 2012-10-18 13:56:01 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Recoil IV wrote:
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Hey, Recoil IV, has your avatar smelled something bad or are you in a permament state af rage?



rage


The perfect ship for you is surely a Rage HAM Drake then. :nod:



and that ship is getting ****** up.therefore : rage.
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4836 - 2012-10-18 13:58:02 UTC
Recoil IV wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Recoil IV wrote:
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Hey, Recoil IV, has your avatar smelled something bad or are you in a permament state af rage?



rage


The perfect ship for you is surely a Rage HAM Drake then. :nod:



and that ship is getting ****** up.therefore : rage.



I think HAM Drakes will be all the "rage" after this patch though Blink
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#4837 - 2012-10-18 13:58:47 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

What is pitiful is that someone can fly missile boat for years and don't even know how they work.
What is even more sad is that someone can fly a race for years and don't even train for it's secondary weapon system, thus abandoning HALF the ships he can fly.

PS : all caldari ship after the rebalancing are hell of a lot more than deadly (see merlin/condor).


Post on your main.

In the meantime, here's my killboard: http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=OT+Smithers

You might note the absense of Caldari ship losses. The reason you don't see them is that I only rarely fly Caldari ships. I can of course, but I prefer to use the best ships for the job at hand.

The reason many Caldari pilots didn't train for hybrids is simple: they were badly broken, and when you stuck these broken weapons on mediocre or broken Caldari hulls they were laughably fail. A Caldari pilot making the choice to train gunnery (and most eventually do) wasn't wasting their time sticking with Caldari, they were switching to a non-broken race. Remember, up until last year Caldari pilots didn't even have a working frigate.

The only pirate I know who flies Caldari missile ships exclusively told me just last week that she was giving up and training Minmatar. She was tired of the nerfs, tired of flying her max skilled yet broken hulls, tired of being left behind when the gang went out because she doesn't have any non-broken ships that are appropriate to what we were doing. That, and I think it bothered her that her perfectly skilled torpedos, fired from her level 5 Raven, and supported by a target painter, weren't hitting my Cyclone hard enough to make me use my ASBs. They were so embarassingly bad that I actually felt bad for her. I might have even allowed her to kill me, just to buck up her spirits and all, but I didn't have all day.

I am not arguing for Caldari fixes for myself. I already have great ships that I can fly, and a buff to Caldari ships doesn't help me. But it does help the game, and that's why I am posting in this forum.
Dalto Bane
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4838 - 2012-10-18 13:59:19 UTC
Well CCP, I have about 25 drake hulls and around 100 or so HML and HAM T2 mods that you need to reimburse me for, since the drake will be utterly useless in any capacity.

Drops Mic
Keko Khaan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4839 - 2012-10-18 14:00:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Keko Khaan
Doddy wrote:







Well they are not very funny forums tbh. And that was only one of many weird assertions in your post. Vulture is a great CS, core of most shiled fleets. Rook is a great combat recon as it can actually kill stuff unlike the others, pity falcon has same layout. Rokh is better than mael at pretty much everything other than alpha, BB is a great ship for a t1 cruiser. Ferox is a million miles from being worst ship in game, it just suffers from tiering like the other first tier bcs.

But yeah chimera sucks, flycatcher is not a sabre (which is way better than all other dictors)



Well i dont see vultures being used at all. I do see claymores being used occasionaly. I dont see rooks used at all either. Mostly because scorpions or falcons suits better for the job. Scorpion has range and tank. Falcon has cloak.
I did say ROKH was mediocre i didnt say it sux. But being good ship is also something else than just being part of huge blob. There is also other options than be part of rokh or mael alpha fleet. Many people uses mael for pve for example. I dont see rokhs getting used in pve that much. Sure theres some. But still mael is better ship in general. And the ferox. While its true that i havent used it after hybrid buff. It still does suck hands down.. How often you see ferox fleet coming at you?
Recoil IV
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4840 - 2012-10-18 14:11:09 UTC
Dalto Bane wrote:
Well CCP, I have about 25 drake hulls and around 100 or so HML and HAM T2 mods that you need to reimburse me for, since the drake will be utterly useless in any capacity.


i will also ask for skill point reimbursement (caldari spaceshit command and missiles)