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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#4561 - 2012-10-11 23:33:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
OT Smithers wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
You have big issues with reading/comprehension ... I never said no one uses Drakes. I said they are not OP except in certain nullsec situations, where the numbers break it all. They are a strong option for medium/long range combat, but its not the best bet for many occassions. Esp. in low sec. Just let us know which others ship you met, and how many, and we might get an idea.

Funny btw you dont say anything about my credibility anymore ...


Post you main then tell me about credibility.

I dare you.

Noemi talks about lowsec, but then can't post with his main. I think all he does is mine and mission in high sec. No pvp record at all. So consequently all his statements are pure ****.


Why do you guys even go there? What difference does it make? Address the content of the post rather than the person posting it.

If you want to make fun of someone's stats here's mine:

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=OT+Smithers

I'm a bit rusty, just getting back to the game and all, so there is all kinds of things you can poke fun of. Knock yourself out.


the point is when ppl try to say they know something about pvp, then something to back it up would give their points merit. however, noemi has no KB, has only flown caldari, has never used turrets because they are 'un-caldari' (that kinda seals it there for me) or HAM's, and fixates on a comparison between two weapon systems that fulfill different roles.

its bullshit post after bullshit post based purely on getting wtf pwned by AC canes (by the sounds of it the only pvp they've had is against ninja's in missions)

i said before, it has nothing to do with size of anyones pvp ****. noemi just has NO pvp record to give credit to them.

edit - Even if they had just a bunch of loss mails to go on. at least we'd have something to go on

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4562 - 2012-10-12 04:16:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Daichi Yamato wrote:
OT Smithers wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
You have big issues with reading/comprehension ... I never said no one uses Drakes. I said they are not OP except in certain nullsec situations, where the numbers break it all. They are a strong option for medium/long range combat, but its not the best bet for many occassions. Esp. in low sec. Just let us know which others ship you met, and how many, and we might get an idea.

Funny btw you dont say anything about my credibility anymore ...


Post you main then tell me about credibility.

I dare you.

Noemi talks about lowsec, but then can't post with his main. I think all he does is mine and mission in high sec. No pvp record at all. So consequently all his statements are pure ****.


Why do you guys even go there? What difference does it make? Address the content of the post rather than the person posting it.

If you want to make fun of someone's stats here's mine:

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=OT+Smithers

I'm a bit rusty, just getting back to the game and all, so there is all kinds of things you can poke fun of. Knock yourself out.


the point is when ppl try to say they know something about pvp, then something to back it up would give their points merit. however, noemi has no KB, has only flown caldari, has never used turrets because they are 'un-caldari' (that kinda seals it there for me) or HAM's, and fixates on a comparison between two weapon systems that fulfill different roles.

its bullshit post after bullshit post based purely on getting wtf pwned by AC canes (by the sounds of it the only pvp they've had is against ninja's in missions)

i said before, it has nothing to do with size of anyones pvp ****. noemi just has NO pvp record to give credit to them.

edit - Even if they had just a bunch of loss mails to go on. at least we'd have something to go on



Bingo.

Nothing about losses, who cares. But claiming to be a gruru with no record and/or hiding behind an NPC corp alt is pretty weak.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4563 - 2012-10-12 07:00:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Noemi Nagano
Daichi Yamato wrote:


the point is when ppl try to say they know something about pvp, then something to back it up would give their points merit.



I posted you one of my alts which obviously doesnt have the issues you mentioned: 1) PvP 2) by no way Drake only :)

Daichi Yamato wrote:

however, noemi has no KB, has only flown caldari, has never used turrets because they are 'un-caldari' (that kinda seals it there for me) or HAM's, and fixates on a comparison between two weapon systems that fulfill different roles.


With this char I have no KB, correct.

Daichi Yamato wrote:

its bullshit post after bullshit post based purely on getting wtf pwned by AC canes (by the sounds of it the only pvp they've had is against ninja's in missions)


I wtf pwned others with my AC Canes, and I made kills with other ships as well. I never said the Drake is sh*t. What I said is, right now it has a role (although that role is not as big as some claim it is), but it wont after those planned changes. OT Smithers just said it right - dont screw Caldari *again*.

Daichi Yamato wrote:

i said before, it has nothing to do with size of anyones pvp ****. noemi just has NO pvp record to give credit to them.

edit - Even if they had just a bunch of loss mails to go on. at least we'd have something to go on


I have a main which is a trader, so no, I wont post lossmails with this char coz this one doesnt fly anything :) I have posted a kb of an PvP alt, just get your facts straight.

And no, credibility does not come from KBs, it comes from facts. I name the facts, I give proof for them (as OT Smithers does too). I am not responsible for the faults in balancing CCP made over and over again. They had plenty of time to make medium and large missiles work for PvP, they didnt use their time well if you ask me.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4564 - 2012-10-12 07:11:32 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:


the point is when ppl try to say they know something about pvp, then something to back it up would give their points merit.



I posted you one of my alts which obviously doesnt have the issues you mentioned: 1) PvP 2) by no way Drake only :)

Daichi Yamato wrote:

however, noemi has no KB, has only flown caldari, has never used turrets because they are 'un-caldari' (that kinda seals it there for me) or HAM's, and fixates on a comparison between two weapon systems that fulfill different roles.


With this char I have no KB, correct.

Daichi Yamato wrote:

its bullshit post after bullshit post based purely on getting wtf pwned by AC canes (by the sounds of it the only pvp they've had is against ninja's in missions)


I wtf pwned others with my AC Canes, and I made kills with other ships as well. I never said the Drake is sh*t. What I said is, right now it has a role (although that role is not as big as some claim it is), but it wont after those planned changes. OT Smithers just said it right - dont screw Caldari *again*.

Daichi Yamato wrote:

i said before, it has nothing to do with size of anyones pvp ****. noemi just has NO pvp record to give credit to them.

edit - Even if they had just a bunch of loss mails to go on. at least we'd have something to go on


I have a main which is a trader, so no, I wont post lossmails with this char coz this one doesnt fly anything :) I have posted a kb of an PvP alt, just get you facts straight.

And no, credibility does not come from KBs, it comes from facts. I name the facts, I give proof for them (as OT Smithers does too). I am not responsible for the faults in balancing CCP made over and over again. They had plenty of time to make medium and large missiles work for PvP, they didnt use their time well if you ask me.


What facts?

It's been posted over and over in MEDIUM long range catagory HMLs are the best weapon by a significant margin, and will remain so after the nerf.

I sure as **** didn't go selling my Drakes and Tengus.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4565 - 2012-10-12 07:14:23 UTC
OT Smithers wrote:


Address the content of the post rather than the person posting it.


They have nothing more to say to the content. Simply because no one set right in his mind actually *could* make a point against those facts you and me presented. No one will object to the fact Caldari missile PvP above frig size is just Drake (and for the rich guys Tengu) with HML. So they have to find something else :)

I quote your other posting again, just because it cant be said often enough.

OT Smithers wrote:
Lallante wrote:
why can't people accept that the devs are balancing each ship class in turn and BCs, BSs and t2 ships will be dealt with in order.


Probably because...

1. This is CCP. How many YEARS were rockets something that would get you laughed at for fitting? How many YEARS did it take them to fix Hybrids? How many YEARS have people been waiting for a fix to Cruise Missiles or Torpedos? And what about those T2 cruisers and Command ships and Battleships you mention, how many YEARS have Caldari pilots been the only race in the game that doesn't have one worth flying?

2. People are looking at the changes proposed so far, the so-called balancing of frigates and cruisers and the nerfing of the Drake, and they are seeing a whole lot of the same old same old. I suspect that not one person, not a single one, read the proposed changes to the Moa and said to themselves, "Now THAT's a ship I want to fly!" They said it about the Rupture, they said it about the Vexor, but the Moa? They can't even figure out what the hell it's supposed to actually do -- and neither, it seems, can CCP.

3. It's a bloody fine line between situationally useful and hangar queen. CCP doesn't want to break the Drake, they just don't want people to USE it. If this sounds like a paradox, congratulations, you get it. But CCP apparently does not. If CCP screws up and breaks the Drake what then? What EXACTLY do you suggest that Caldari pilots switch to? Be specific.

4. After years of having CCP screw them over and over and over again, Caldari pilots are justifiably distrustful and angry. This is not exactly some new issue. Hell, CCP even screwed Caldari pilots with the Naga. If, like CCP, you think this is no big deal I suspect that you reconsider. CCP is so used to sticking it to Caldari players that they are obviously beginning to take them for granted. But there is a line, and they are dancing and giggling towards it now. There's no safety net, they are about to f@ck with the ONLY combat ship Caldari pilots have left.

Think about that. Seriously, THINK about it.

The Drake is not so overpowered that leaving it alone for now causes a problem. It's been "broken" for years, it's actually less of a problem today than it has been in the past, so leaving it the hell alone really doesn't matter. CCP needs to step the hell back, fix some of the NUMEROUS other broken Caldari hulls, then revisit this later if it's still a problem.


Best regards.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4566 - 2012-10-12 07:22:43 UTC
Onictus wrote:

What facts?

It's been posted over and over in MEDIUM long range catagory HMLs are the best weapon by a significant margin, and will remain so after the nerf.

I sure as **** didn't go selling my Drakes and Tengus.


1) Its been posted over and over again that there are range windows for MEDIUM long range weapons where HML is NOT best but worst in DPS.

2) Its been posted over and over again that missiles have FLIGHT TIME.

3) Its been posted over and over again that NO OTHER HML-based ship actually works except Drake and Tengu.

4) Its been posted over and over again that NO OTHER CALDARI MISSILE PVP ship than those 2 actually works above frig size.

5) Its been posted over and over again that Drakes are NOT the most used ship in lowsec and highsec.

6) Its been posted over and over again that picking on SOME STATS alone does not make sense in a game which is about ALL STATS combined. Eve is NOT EFT.

7) Its been posted over and over again that there are known and used counters against nullsec blobs with HML Drakes.

Onictus, you said you were in lowsec a few days ago and met gatecamps, each of them with 2 or so Drakes. You failed to answer my questions which other ships and how many of them where in those lowsec gatecamps. Nor didnt you tell us how many ships of which kind you met overall. I am pretty sure Drakes were not the majority of ships you saw in lowsec ;)
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4567 - 2012-10-12 07:25:12 UTC
Screwed by the naga?

You are kidding right? Naga us one of the better tier 3 for gang work

Did you fly the "torp" Naga on SiSi, it was terrible....a horrible horrible ship, Crap range, Crap damage and pain to fit.

I don't care about missile PvP that would be like ragequittig because my ogre IIs don't destroy all in PvP. It's a silly emotional argument with no basis in fact.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4568 - 2012-10-12 07:32:44 UTC
Onictus wrote:


I don't care about missile PvP that would be like ragequittig because my ogre IIs don't destroy all in PvP.


Its pretty clear you dont care about missile PvP. Still its there and should have a role, like the signature weapons of other races do have a role too in medium and large PvP. Btw, with this one sentence you really did a LOT for your credibility :)
Soon Shin
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#4569 - 2012-10-12 07:55:29 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Screwed by the naga?

You are kidding right? Naga us one of the better tier 3 for gang work

Did you fly the "torp" Naga on SiSi, it was terrible....a horrible horrible ship, Crap range, Crap damage and pain to fit.

I don't care about missile PvP that would be like ragequittig because my ogre IIs don't destroy all in PvP. It's a silly emotional argument with no basis in fact.


In a properly balanced game all weapon systems should be viable and worth using, ignoring bad weapon systems and leaving them be is bad balancing.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4570 - 2012-10-12 07:58:14 UTC
Soon Shin wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Screwed by the naga?

You are kidding right? Naga us one of the better tier 3 for gang work

Did you fly the "torp" Naga on SiSi, it was terrible....a horrible horrible ship, Crap range, Crap damage and pain to fit.

I don't care about missile PvP that would be like ragequittig because my ogre IIs don't destroy all in PvP. It's a silly emotional argument with no basis in fact.


In a properly balanced game all weapon systems should be viable and worth using, ignoring bad weapon systems and leaving them be is bad balancing.


That was my point, right now you don't use heavy beams or rails.....because of HMLs nothing holds a candle.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4571 - 2012-10-12 08:01:25 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Onictus wrote:


I don't care about missile PvP that would be like ragequittig because my ogre IIs don't destroy all in PvP.


Its pretty clear you dont care about missile PvP. Still its there and should have a role, like the signature weapons of other races do have a role too in medium and large PvP. Btw, with this one sentence you really did a LOT for your credibility :)


Yeah, I don't care about it specifically.

Yet most of the kills I have in the last 6 months are in Drakes, Tengus, and Nagas......with a couple in a Rokh.

Like I said, check my killboards.
Signal11th
#4572 - 2012-10-12 08:14:29 UTC
Soon Shin wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Screwed by the naga?

You are kidding right? Naga us one of the better tier 3 for gang work

Did you fly the "torp" Naga on SiSi, it was terrible....a horrible horrible ship, Crap range, Crap damage and pain to fit.

I don't care about missile PvP that would be like ragequittig because my ogre IIs don't destroy all in PvP. It's a silly emotional argument with no basis in fact.


In a properly balanced game all weapon systems should be viable and worth using, ignoring bad weapon systems and leaving them be is bad balancing.



They are already just for different scenarios, you will never attain balance in EVE as in doing so it would destroy EVE completely.

It's certain ships and lack of tactics which make the imbalance not missles.

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4573 - 2012-10-12 08:21:13 UTC
Signal11th wrote:
Soon Shin wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Screwed by the naga?

You are kidding right? Naga us one of the better tier 3 for gang work

Did you fly the "torp" Naga on SiSi, it was terrible....a horrible horrible ship, Crap range, Crap damage and pain to fit.

I don't care about missile PvP that would be like ragequittig because my ogre IIs don't destroy all in PvP. It's a silly emotional argument with no basis in fact.


In a properly balanced game all weapon systems should be viable and worth using, ignoring bad weapon systems and leaving them be is bad balancing.



They are already just for different scenarios, you will never attain balance in EVE as in doing so it would destroy EVE completely.

It's certain ships and lack of tactics which make the imbalance not missles.



Ok so a heavy beam harbi, how do you tactic that against a drake blob, with its 20k ehp and range disadvantage, or rail mrym (lol) ....well other than fitting pulses and blasters and getting in someone's grill.
Signal11th
#4574 - 2012-10-12 08:34:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Signal11th
Onictus wrote:
Signal11th wrote:
Soon Shin wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Screwed by the naga?

You are kidding right? Naga us one of the better tier 3 for gang work

Did you fly the "torp" Naga on SiSi, it was terrible....a horrible horrible ship, Crap range, Crap damage and pain to fit.

I don't care about missile PvP that would be like ragequittig because my ogre IIs don't destroy all in PvP. It's a silly emotional argument with no basis in fact.


In a properly balanced game all weapon systems should be viable and worth using, ignoring bad weapon systems and leaving them be is bad balancing.



They are already just for different scenarios, you will never attain balance in EVE as in doing so it would destroy EVE completely.

It's certain ships and lack of tactics which make the imbalance not missles.



Ok so a heavy beam harbi, how do you tactic that against a drake blob, with its 20k ehp and range disadvantage, or rail mrym (lol) ....well other than fitting pulses and blasters and getting in someone's grill.



You choose a different ship...tactics, christ you know 0.0 nearly every enemy fleet compostition is always known 99% of the time so you either conteract it or you forget about it.

Nearly every 0.0 fleet i've ever been in I've known 15 minutes before what I'll be flying up against. There will always be a "blob" of some kind. You remove the Drake then it will be Zealot blobs, you get rid of them it will be rohk blobs etc etc,

I've been in drake blobs and have won/lost heavy and have been against brake blobs and killed them all. All the times its been about FC tactics not the ships themselves.

The drakes are at range so you try to get a warp in on them, if you can't you either withdraw or die. If it's a drake/zealot blob with heavy logisitics again you have to change your tactics and so on and so on.

Unfortunately EVE at the moment encourages blobs, there's no point nerfing everything until it's all mundane you tinker/nerf/buff the foundations of the cause of the problem not the problem itself. Prevention is better than the cure.

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4575 - 2012-10-12 08:41:29 UTC
Signal11th wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Signal11th wrote:
Soon Shin wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Screwed by the naga?

You are kidding right? Naga us one of the better tier 3 for gang work

Did you fly the "torp" Naga on SiSi, it was terrible....a horrible horrible ship, Crap range, Crap damage and pain to fit.

I don't care about missile PvP that would be like ragequittig because my ogre IIs don't destroy all in PvP. It's a silly emotional argument with no basis in fact.


In a properly balanced game all weapon systems should be viable and worth using, ignoring bad weapon systems and leaving them be is bad balancing.



They are already just for different scenarios, you will never attain balance in EVE as in doing so it would destroy EVE completely.

It's certain ships and lack of tactics which make the imbalance not missles.



Ok so a heavy beam harbi, how do you tactic that against a drake blob, with its 20k ehp and range disadvantage, or rail mrym (lol) ....well other than fitting pulses and blasters and getting in someone's grill.



You choose a different ship...tactics, christ you know 0.0 nearly every enemy fleet compostition is always known 99% of the time so you either conteract it or you forget about it.

Nearly every 0.0 fleet i've ever been in I've known 15 minutes before what I'll be flying up against. There will always be a "blob" of some kind. You remove the Drake then it will be Zealot blobs, you get rid of them it will be rohk blobs etc etc,

The drakes are at range so you try to get a warp in on them, if you can't you either withdraw or die. If it's a drake/zealot blob with heavy logisitics again you have to change your tactics and so on and so on.

Unfortunately EVE at the moment encourages blobs, there's no point nerfing everything until it's all mundane you tinker/nerf/buff the foundations of the cause of the problem not the problem itself. Prevention is better than the cure.


They can't nerf blobs, that would be anti-sandbox, the sandbox is a core principle of the game.

How else would you suggest they do a balance pass? By not balancing anything.

All of the bleating in this thread CCP said straight out that HMLs are so far out of line they were having trouble with the hulls. So I'd save the nerdraging dramatitics until we see what the do with the BCs and BSs.
Signal11th
#4576 - 2012-10-12 08:53:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Signal11th
Onictus wrote:



They can't nerf blobs, that would be anti-sandbox, the sandbox is a core principle of the game.

How else would you suggest they do a balance pass? By not balancing anything.

All of the bleating in this thread CCP said straight out that HMLs are so far out of line they were having trouble with the hulls. So I'd save the nerdraging dramatitics until we see what the do with the BCs and BSs.


For me personally this is more about server balancing not ship balancing.

I've been fighting in 0.0 for the last 3 years and to be honest in the last 6 months I've hardly seen a drake blob, mostly zealots or rohks now.

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4577 - 2012-10-12 08:57:47 UTC
Signal11th wrote:
I've been fighting in 0.0 for the last 3 years and to be honest in the last 6 months I've hardly seen a drake blob, mostly zealots or rohks now.


We had a baby one today.

Drake gangs of 50-70 we still see.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4578 - 2012-10-12 09:46:58 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
I wtf pwned others with my AC Canes, and I made kills with other ships as well. I never said the Drake is sh*t. What I said is, right now it has a role (although that role is not as big as some claim it is), but it wont after those planned changes. OT Smithers just said it right - dont screw Caldari *again*.


How good your AC Cane is against a proper counter: Curse's tracking disruptors?

Noemi Nagano wrote:
1) Its been posted over and over again that there are range windows for MEDIUM long range weapons where HML is NOT best but worst in DPS.


Are you talking about 15-30km?

No, that's not the range where turrets out dps missiles. Because you will have major tracking problems with long range turrets at that range.
Signal11th
#4579 - 2012-10-12 09:53:54 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Signal11th wrote:
I've been fighting in 0.0 for the last 3 years and to be honest in the last 6 months I've hardly seen a drake blob, mostly zealots or rohks now.


We had a baby one today.

Drake gangs of 50-70 we still see.



You're down south aren't you? Yeah it was the last time I saw Drake blobs was when I was down Delve, Fatyh way.

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4580 - 2012-10-12 10:15:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Signal11th wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Signal11th wrote:
I've been fighting in 0.0 for the last 3 years and to be honest in the last 6 months I've hardly seen a drake blob, mostly zealots or rohks now.


We had a baby one today.

Drake gangs of 50-70 we still see.



You're down south aren't you? Yeah it was the last time I saw Drake blobs was when I was down Delve, Fatyh way.


Delve was a blast, take 100 out fight till local passed 800 bugger off and do it again in an hour. Usually the third cyno per fight meant it was time to GTFO.