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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4541 - 2012-10-11 04:39:06 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
OT Smithers wrote:

Then move on to other Caldari ships. Fix their Battleships, fix their HACs and Command Ships and Interdictors. Make them the kind of ships that everyone wants to fly. Make them so good that Caldari pilots currently training some other race (in other words, all of them) momentarily regret the time they didn't invest into their own. You know... balance for everyone, including the Caldari. It's novel, it's a radical departure, but I think it's an idea whose time has come!

THEN, and only then, take a look at see where HM Drakes stand, and if they need a nerf go for it.


Exactly. OT Smithers is right, again. Give those over 9000 broken hulls a viable working role, one which others would love to take. And you will see how the Drake is no issue at all anymore (and if it still is, then there *is* an alternative route for Caldari pilots, which does not mean "crosstrain!"). Ofc it would be best to have a role for every single hull in game, but I agree this is maybe not so easy to do. But at least some more than just *one* tech 1 hull above frig size would suit a professional company well.


Why should Caldari be superior?
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4542 - 2012-10-11 06:10:53 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:


Why should Caldari be superior?


Why should they be inferior? And you wont deny when you look at just tech 1 missile hulls above frig they *ARE* inferior atm. If you take away the only working one you end with - nil. Exactly.

There is no posting of alts needed to back up what I said here :) what exactly will you see when I tell you this? http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=ROU+Psychopath#kills

I think no one with their brains set right denies the fact there is no Caldari missile PvP in numbers medium or large size except HML Drake (and T3 Tengu). So if you kill HML PvP for Caldari then there is nothing left. As we dont know if or how HAMs will do after this patch in comparison to other weapon systems. Atm they are not the best bet if you want to win.

And PvP is about winning, so the winner takes it all. Hence the name Winmatar ... they win it all. Except ECM ;)

Best regards.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4543 - 2012-10-11 07:04:35 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Why should they be inferior? And you wont deny when you look at just tech 1 missile hulls above frig they *ARE* inferior atm.


You didn't answer my question.

We all know missile ships aren't that good. And you think only Caldari missile ships need work?

You also say that like every other race has it way better. Let's look at Amarr ships for example.
- Maller (Bait with ACs? Nothing else)
- Omen (even though it can at least do something)
- Augoror (Oh god! Why!?)

- Prophecy (AC... DC)

Whole Amarr T1 frigate line up before they started rebalancing. Ok, Punisher was good but with ACs...
Doddy
Excidium.
#4544 - 2012-10-11 09:11:19 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:


Why should Caldari be superior?


Why should they be inferior? And you wont deny when you look at just tech 1 missile hulls above frig they *ARE* inferior atm. If you take away the only working one you end with - nil. Exactly.

There is no posting of alts needed to back up what I said here :) what exactly will you see when I tell you this? http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=ROU+Psychopath#kills

I think no one with their brains set right denies the fact there is no Caldari missile PvP in numbers medium or large size except HML Drake (and T3 Tengu). So if you kill HML PvP for Caldari then there is nothing left. As we dont know if or how HAMs will do after this patch in comparison to other weapon systems. Atm they are not the best bet if you want to win.

And PvP is about winning, so the winner takes it all. Hence the name Winmatar ... they win it all. Except ECM ;)

Best regards.


The problem is that missile hulls are only a part of the caldari line up, the hybrid hulls are all pretty good (eagle excepted) while the support ships (ewar and logis) are all good. Of the missile hulls drake and tengu are clearly very good, nighthawk is good but overshadowed by tengu, frig missiles are fine so really you are soley saying caldari pilots are screwed because of the raven which doesn't use hml (trorp raven at least getting buffed thanks to GMP), caracal (getting buffed) and cerberus (which is broken because of its crappy tank/speed, not because of missiles).

Its a bit like saying gellente players are screwed because certain drone boats underperform in certain situations. What about minatar missile users? they only get torp phoon and bomber. Or amarr drone boats who only get recons or amarr missile users who only have t2 ships?
Kai'rae Saarkus
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4545 - 2012-10-11 09:23:43 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:


Why should Caldari be superior?


Why should they be inferior? And you wont deny when you look at just tech 1 missile hulls above frig they *ARE* inferior atm.


And post Nerf?

Drakes will still have a role (nobody ever flew them for DPS, it was because of the Buffer and the plethora of mids the fact they had easy DPS was gravy).

Tengus will still be flown, they just won't outnumber Legions and Protei by such a large margin.

Caracals will be good (ROF bonus means not tied to Kinetic, means a roughly +15% DPS bonus for Therm, EM and Exp), their extra range will matter (pushes HMLs out to 90Km) as it means they've got a niche Drakes can't fill. (Previously 80Km Drakes were good enough that you didn't need to think about extra range, meaning the range bonus on Caracals was just wasted).

Cerbs... 60Km Precision (which o/all got a damage buff) + enough mids to fit a TP (for a Gang fit without a point) will make it molest Frigs at range. Either way, the nerf in comparison to it's bonuses (++ Range and ++ Damage) mean that the window in which Cerbs > Drakes will get wider (it's not a big window, but it is there; whereas "atm" it's practically non-existent).

Raven will still be broken.

Oh, and HAMs are now useful. So you get a second flavour of all 4 of those ships which is better now than it was.
And RLML Caracal will also be better post patch.

So overall.. you're "atm" is pointless. "atm" Drakes a still good. Post Nerf you'll have more Caldari missile boat love. They'll have real roles, roles that you can consider using them for rather than going "Lol, Drake is better, fly that".
Manfred Hideous
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#4546 - 2012-10-11 10:09:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Manfred Hideous
The Bazzalisk wrote:
Still irritated by the Hurricane PG nerf. It just doesn't make sense.

Problem:

Medium artilleries are hard to fit.
Ships which use Medium ACs get a lot of spare PG.

Sensible solution:

Decrease medium artillery PG uses by 10%.
Increase medium AC uses by x%.

Both problems are solved.


CCP solution:

Decrease medium artillery PG uses by 10%.
Nerf Hurricane PG.

So now it's actually harder to fit medium artilleries than it was before. You do realise people will just drop the ACs down to 180mms and not actually make a huge difference, right?

Derp.



While I agree they nerfed it too hard, it did need to lose a med neut. The problem with making A/C harder to fit is that would mean ALL cruisers that use them would become hard to fit at all.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#4547 - 2012-10-11 10:43:46 UTC
Oh cool, it's now time to state evidence, like T1 cruisers are currently ****, and BS missiles ned work. Congrats, you reach page 2 of this thread. Though you miss all the other thread about T1 cruiser rebalance. You need to work a little more.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4548 - 2012-10-11 11:44:40 UTC
Doddy wrote:

The problem is that missile hulls are only a part of the caldari line up, the hybrid hulls are all pretty good (eagle excepted)


Sorry, but if I want to go Hybrids I normally feel Gallente are not worse doing that. Sniping a Naga and Rohk have a role. Ferox is not first choice for most things, Moa sucks in comparison to other cruisers, and even more it will after patch. Eagle sucks hard too ...

Doddy wrote:

while the support ships (ewar and logis) are all good. Of the missile hulls drake and tengu are clearly very good, nighthawk is good but overshadowed by tengu,


No. Did you actually ever fly a NH? In PvP it can do some things even worse than a Drake due to its massive PG problems, and the slotlayout is also not too good for a medium size hull shieldtank in PvP. The NH is so far worse than Sleipnir or Absolution that its making no sense to think its because of the Tengu - its because the NH is broken as it is. Btw, funny enough that the so called OP HML system doesnt change that ... guess why.

The point about my complaint is - missiles are THE signature weapon of Caldari. Not Hybrids, unlike some others say. Compare it to amarr lasers and minmatar projectiles. If we half the number of useful combat hulls like those two have for their signature weapon ABOVE FRIG SIZE (in capitals, just for you so you dont come back with Frigs AGAIN), then we see CCPis doing the right thing.

Will wait some more :)
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4549 - 2012-10-11 12:49:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Ferox is not first choice for most things


Blaster Ferox... Yes, blasters work now.

Blaster Rokh...

Funny how you didn't mention anything about Vulture. That probably means it works. Big smile

Noemi Nagano wrote:
The point about my complaint is - missiles are THE signature weapon of Caldari. Not Hybrids, unlike some others say. Compare it to amarr lasers and minmatar projectiles. If we half the number of useful combat hulls like those two have for their signature weapon ABOVE FRIG SIZE (in capitals, just for you so you dont come back with Frigs AGAIN), then we see CCPis doing the right thing.


All races use all three weapon systems (turrets, missiles, drones).

All you say is that remove drone bays from non-Gallente ships, only allow lasers to be used on Amarr hulls, etc.
Dread Pirate Pete
Doomheim
#4550 - 2012-10-11 13:40:11 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
[quote=Doddy]The point about my complaint is - missiles are THE signature weapon of Caldari. Not Hybrids, unlike some others say.


Pretty sure Rails are equal with missiles on the "signature Caldari" front, blasters being Gallente...
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4551 - 2012-10-11 15:48:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:


Why should Caldari be superior?


Why should they be inferior? And you wont deny when you look at just tech 1 missile hulls above frig they *ARE* inferior atm. If you take away the only working one you end with - nil. Exactly.

There is no posting of alts needed to back up what I said here :) what exactly will you see when I tell you this? http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=ROU+Psychopath#kills

I think no one with their brains set right denies the fact there is no Caldari missile PvP in numbers medium or large size except HML Drake (and T3 Tengu). So if you kill HML PvP for Caldari then there is nothing left. As we dont know if or how HAMs will do after this patch in comparison to other weapon systems. Atm they are not the best bet if you want to win.

And PvP is about winning, so the winner takes it all. Hence the name Winmatar ... they win it all. Except ECM ;)

Best regards.



Boy that is funny I was screwing around with an alt in matar low sec


...three gate camps with at least two drake pre camp

No one uses drakes. Ever, and I'm not a sarcastic ****. Please lay off, just let it go.


425mm Rokh does 500ish DPS for 60+39 optimal + falloff (fleet fit i.e. with tank) I wonder why a drake is a tad out of line.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4552 - 2012-10-11 17:40:47 UTC
You have big issues with reading/comprehension ... I never said no one uses Drakes. I said they are not OP except in certain nullsec situations, where the numbers break it all. They are a strong option for medium/long range combat, but its not the best bet for many occassions. Esp. in low sec. Just let us know which others ship you met, and how many, and we might get an idea.

Funny btw you dont say anything about my credibility anymore ...
Lallante
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#4553 - 2012-10-11 19:20:17 UTC
why can't people accept that the devs are balancing each ship class in turn and BCs, BSs and t2 ships will be dealt with in order.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#4554 - 2012-10-11 19:30:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Noemi Nagano wrote:
You have big issues with reading/comprehension ... I never said no one uses Drakes. I said they are not OP except in certain nullsec situations, where the numbers break it all.

They are. They are long range medium size weapons, and compared to others long range medium size weapons. And compare to these, they are definitely OP.

Someone said you even see drakes in lowsec ; have you *ever* seen a ship with long range medium size weapons for solo or very small gang pvp ? No, because they are useless in this situation and they should be HAM drakes, but they are HML drakes. Are HAM so bad ? I don't think so. Though HML are so much more versatile that you don't have any advantage using HAM : no need for full tackle, long range and frigate defense.

Skip strait to the conclusion if you are lazy now, I explain things.

But the question remain : is it the weapon, the HML, or the ship, the drake which are OP ? Most used HML platforms are Drake and Tengu. One is a BC, a fairly common and overused class of ship, and the other is a T3, a very expensive and capable platform.

What are the other HML platforms ? Caracal and Cerberus. Both are cruisers, and like many of their counterparts, they are not used. Is it because of HML or because of the hull ? Considering the state of the others similar hulls, we can bet this is because of the hull.

Tengu now : like all the other T3, it have good overall abilities, but not so amazing infact, and a proteus can field a way better tank than the tengu, though it will be armour tank. But unlike the others, the tengu have a shield tank and HML.

And the Drake finally : BS speed, an amazing shield tank and HML. Speed is extremely important, and yet, the drake see a wide use.

Now, Noisverbus could tell you better than me why drake and tengu are so good, with it's projection-buffer paradigm, but to go strait to the conclusion, HML are the best weapon for projecting damage, and shield tank vs armour tank need a lot of work. So drake and tengu are the convergence point of a lot of things which all make them OP, and HML are one of them. If things are done correctly, drake and tengu will still remain extremely good, because all the environment is favouring theirdesign phylosophy, but still, we need to balance shield and HML to allow the other things to live.

TL;DR: Conclusion :
HML are the best medium weapon for projecting damage. They are by design. They provide reliant and stable damage at all the range they can hit, and this range is huge. On top of that, they are very versatile, able to hit even frigates for noticeable damage. We can't really change these things. The only thing we can do is to make a bubble of ranges where the other long range medium size weapons can live. To achieve this, we have to reduce their damage, so other long range medium size weapons have a better theoretical dps at short range, and reduce their range, so the ship need to sacrifice a bit of tank to hit farther, and maybe railguns can live too. And we hit their ability to murder frigates, so they have one more weakness. This last one is a bit opposed to the ideology of long range missiles, but well, if this is the only thing we can do without making everyone calling for murder, it's better than nothing

Intended role, that is how the game try to be balanced around.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4555 - 2012-10-11 19:36:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Noemi Nagano wrote:
You have big issues with reading/comprehension ... I never said no one uses Drakes. I said they are not OP except in certain nullsec situations, where the numbers break it all. They are a strong option for medium/long range combat, but its not the best bet for many occassions. Esp. in low sec. Just let us know which others ship you met, and how many, and we might get an idea.

Funny btw you dont say anything about my credibility anymore ...


Post you main then tell me about credibility.

I dare you.

Oh by the by here are my stats https://a-killed.me/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=174017&view=ships_weapons
Lili Lu
#4556 - 2012-10-11 19:40:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Onictus wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
You have big issues with reading/comprehension ... I never said no one uses Drakes. I said they are not OP except in certain nullsec situations, where the numbers break it all. They are a strong option for medium/long range combat, but its not the best bet for many occassions. Esp. in low sec. Just let us know which others ship you met, and how many, and we might get an idea.

Funny btw you dont say anything about my credibility anymore ...


Post you main then tell me about credibility.

I dare you.

Noemi talks about lowsec, but then can't post with his main. I think all he does is mine and mission in high sec. No pvp record at all. So consequently all his statements are pure ****.
Jack-ya-wanna Imaima-Jihad
Lightning Squad
Snuffed Out
#4557 - 2012-10-11 20:51:05 UTC
Okay, I am not going to read all 225 pages of this thread. What I will do is post my own opinion =).

Hurricane: Definitely needs to be unable to fit 2 nuets. And could use the projected pg change.

Drake: Sigh...

Okay so the idea is to get a definite difference between HML and HAM's.

HML's are designed for long range. HAM's are for close.

CCP why are you nerfing the range of the HML's when they are designed for long range?????????????????? Ihmo

What should happen is Like guns, HML missiles become idiotically useless within x range, for argument say 15km.

So H - Missles should work:

Optimal 40-70km

75% effective 15-40km

50% effective 0-15km

Where as HAM's work to the exact opposite

Optimal 30k

75% effective 30-max range


Not saying these exact numbers, but make it where HML's are useless @ close range and HAM's are semi useless @ close to their max. This would make a clearer role of both launchers. Just like you have rails and blasters or arty and autocannons.


Another note, nurfing the explosion radius of the HM's make them less useful against smaller ships, they already are useless against bs's. So wthell are you going to shoot? Ihmo.


I think CCP needs to focus more on 2 things. One Cruisers should be generally designed to take other cruisers and smaller ships with the same ability to take a BC as a BC could take a BS. Battlecruisers should be able to take cruisers, bc's and be better against bs's, but semi useless against smaller.

Second, the other BC's need to be made USEFUL. To date the Cane has the great ability to be a jack of all trades. The Drake is the ONLY useful PVP missileboat currently ingame. Why? because the Carcal is useless, their isnt a t1 destroyer missileboat, no t1 useful cruiser missileboat, no great t1 frig missileboat. Step up the BC's ability to be great pvp ships in their own way.

The missile skill as a whole is semi FAIL. All the skills aren't semi interchangeable with anything else like everything else is. AKA for the nubs Arty/auto's. Rail/blasters and lazors all use the same support skills (controlled burst etc). its an entire separate skill set and if the hml's are nurfed, guess what MISSILES BECOME A USELESS SET OF SKILLS. The drake is the SOLE cost effective and USEFUL missileboat in the ENTIRE game.

SO CCP, before you destroy the ONLY useful Missileboat in the entire game, PLEASE make the others useful AND make a destroyer t1 missileboat. A real LoL is even the missile dread sucks. 1v1 vs any other and its not even a contest...sigh.



My big concern is that missiles are currently a sole entity. Their support skills aren't used for anything but missile launchers. So in my eyes missiles are a more specialized skill set. Thus make them worth their time to train useful. Actually make a destroyer MB. Actually improve the Krestel and Condor. The Carcal is a total joke as it is paper and no dps. I think the Carcal needs to take after its Navy counterpart and the Navy get maybe a better tank boost.

Like stated before, the ONLY pvp useable missleboat (forgetting the rich pilots who fly tengu's like thrashers) is the drake. HM nerf = drake less useful = not ideal over anyother race = why are missiles in the game?

Their isnt anywhere to go atm with missiles past HML/HAM's for pvp. A raven is NEVER used in pvp (cept for bait). So where the hell is the point of even having missiles in the game?
Lili Lu
#4558 - 2012-10-11 21:19:21 UTC
Jack-ya-wanna Imaima-Jihad wrote:
Okay, I am not going to read all 225 pages of this thread. What I will do is post my own opinion =).

Hurricane: Definitely needs to be unable to fit 2 nuets. And could use the projected pg change.

Drake: Sigh...

stopped reading your post right there.

Seriously, if you can't be arsed to read the OP and the followup posts by the OP which are linked in the OP why should we read your uninformed whine?
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#4559 - 2012-10-11 23:07:53 UTC
Lallante wrote:
why can't people accept that the devs are balancing each ship class in turn and BCs, BSs and t2 ships will be dealt with in order.


Probably because...

1. This is CCP. How many YEARS were rockets something that would get you laughed at for fitting? How many YEARS did it take them to fix Hybrids? How many YEARS have people been waiting for a fix to Cruise Missiles or Torpedos? And what about those T2 cruisers and Command ships and Battleships you mention, how many YEARS have Caldari pilots been the only race in the game that doesn't have one worth flying?

2. People are looking at the changes proposed so far, the so-called balancing of frigates and cruisers and the nerfing of the Drake, and they are seeing a whole lot of the same old same old. I suspect that not one person, not a single one, read the proposed changes to the Moa and said to themselves, "Now THAT's a ship I want to fly!" They said it about the Rupture, they said it about the Vexor, but the Moa? They can't even figure out what the hell it's supposed to actually do -- and neither, it seems, can CCP.

3. It's a bloody fine line between situationally useful and hangar queen. CCP doesn't want to break the Drake, they just don't want people to USE it. If this sounds like a paradox, congratulations, you get it. But CCP apparently does not. If CCP screws up and breaks the Drake what then? What EXACTLY do you suggest that Caldari pilots switch to? Be specific.

4. After years of having CCP screw them over and over and over again, Caldari pilots are justifiably distrustful and angry. This is not exactly some new issue. Hell, CCP even screwed Caldari pilots with the Naga. If, like CCP, you think this is no big deal I suspect that you reconsider. CCP is so used to sticking it to Caldari players that they are obviously beginning to take them for granted. But there is a line, and they are dancing and giggling towards it now. There's no safety net, they are about to f@ck with the ONLY combat ship Caldari pilots have left.

Think about that. Seriously, THINK about it.

The Drake is not so overpowered that leaving it alone for now causes a problem. It's been "broken" for years, it's actually less of a problem today than it has been in the past, so leaving it the hell alone really doesn't matter. CCP needs to step the hell back, fix some of the NUMEROUS other broken Caldari hulls, then revisit this later if it's still a problem.
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#4560 - 2012-10-11 23:22:06 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
You have big issues with reading/comprehension ... I never said no one uses Drakes. I said they are not OP except in certain nullsec situations, where the numbers break it all. They are a strong option for medium/long range combat, but its not the best bet for many occassions. Esp. in low sec. Just let us know which others ship you met, and how many, and we might get an idea.

Funny btw you dont say anything about my credibility anymore ...


Post you main then tell me about credibility.

I dare you.

Noemi talks about lowsec, but then can't post with his main. I think all he does is mine and mission in high sec. No pvp record at all. So consequently all his statements are pure ****.


Why do you guys even go there? What difference does it make? Address the content of the post rather than the person posting it.

If you want to make fun of someone's stats here's mine:

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=OT+Smithers

I'm a bit rusty, just getting back to the game and all, so there is all kinds of things you can poke fun of. Knock yourself out.