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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4461 - 2012-10-09 15:36:54 UTC
When people realize that Gallente/Minmatar ships are best for solo/skirmish like stuff? Combat style for Amarr and Caldari is different.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#4462 - 2012-10-09 15:41:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
lol only one ship can be first choice, and yes the cane is overpowered. Luckily for most folks its getting nerfed.
but yeah, the drake is second choice for small scale BC roams, or if its a shield roam its preferred over canes by a smidge

Bearing in mind i probably have a different mind to small scale than u, and in most cases these will be HAM drakes.
large engagements for us would be preluded by the words 'BRING DRAKES U NOOBS'

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4463 - 2012-10-09 18:00:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Those 2 ships are not breaking the game IMO, they are just good in a role


AC Cane vs. HML Drake

Who wins?

Oh, I'm still waiting list of good T1 Amarr cruisers. Big smile



If the Drake pilot isn't a moron and close into neut range, drake.


(my killboard has lots of caldari for reference)
Losvar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4464 - 2012-10-09 18:13:20 UTC
About time my NH got nerfed, it's so much better than using a Sleipnir with 3k dps sustainable tank without crystals, while still pushing out 800+ dps.
Those damn caldari HACs and command ships are so stupidly OP!

Would be nice if they at least provided some lube when raping a lot of already under-performing Caldari ships (all caracal hulls, NH, raven, golem, onyx)

Note: Drake is very strong (borderline OP) and Tengu is the most OP ship in all of EvE, but it's not due to HMLs being OP.
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#4465 - 2012-10-09 18:28:53 UTC
Losvar wrote:
About time my NH got nerfed, it's so much better than using a Sleipnir with 3k dps sustainable tank without crystals, while still pushing out 800+ dps.
Those damn caldari HACs and command ships are so stupidly OP!

Would be nice if they at least provided some lube when raping a lot of already under-performing Caldari ships (all caracal hulls, NH, raven, golem, onyx)

Note: Drake is very strong (borderline OP) and Tengu is the most OP ship in all of EvE, but it's not due to HMLs being OP.



ROFL

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Hermann Simm
Doomheim
#4466 - 2012-10-09 19:02:16 UTC
The missile nerf will make the nighthawk a useless pile of garbage.
why?
With all lvl 5 skills, maximum damage t2 ammo
the nighthawk does 320dps with hmls (less with the change) and has 320powergrid left or 399dps with heavy assault launchers and then has 207 powergrid left

In comparison
The Absolution does 464 dps and has 722 powergrid left
The Sleipnir does 428 dps and has 850 powergrid left
The Astrarte does 621 dps and has 635 powergrid left
Sigras
Conglomo
#4467 - 2012-10-09 19:19:11 UTC
The nighthawk was a useless pile of garbage before the missile nerfs . . . .

Once heavy missiles are back in line and the drake gets changed, the nighthawk can be looked at
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#4468 - 2012-10-09 19:29:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Major Killz
Sigras wrote:
The nighthawk was a useless pile of garbage before the missile nerfs . . . .

Once heavy missiles are back in line and the drake gets changed, the nighthawk can be looked at



The Nighthawk wasn't THAT bad. P sure a fleet of Nighthawk would be able to blob a blob of art-sliepnirs EASY. SAFE @ 65k like BOSSES doing TENGUR DPS.

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Lallante
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#4469 - 2012-10-09 19:30:29 UTC
Showing how ships that were broken before the changes are broken after the changes proves nothing. Even CCP have admitted NH and Cerb and Raven need work.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4470 - 2012-10-09 22:05:18 UTC
Lallante wrote:
Showing how ships that were broken before the changes are broken after the changes proves nothing. Even CCP have admitted NH and Cerb and Raven need work.


The point is .. these ships do need work for a far longer time than Drakes in nullsec were even a thing to consider ... but yeah, I will just rest toons and use others. Like I said, its nothing personal for me - if ship x would be the only real option for race y and it would get nerfed I would post here too.

If someone denies Caldari missile PvP needs a ship in med and/or large size which is actually *working* then he should just GTFO of a *balance* thread. Atm there is a ship which is working in certain kinds of engagements. After this patch *those* will no longer work, and its not clear if others will. If you fly Gallente only feel free to post, but dont think you have actually an idea of missile PvP. Btw, I dont say Gallente are blessed, they are also on the receiving end for a while now. But still seem to have more viable ships overall ... and yeah, I do see the problem is also Caldari tier 1 BS is not a real Combat BS like the other 3 races pendants .. maybe things would be different then.
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#4471 - 2012-10-09 22:08:35 UTC
Lallante wrote:
Showing how ships that were broken before the changes are broken after the changes proves nothing. Even CCP have admitted NH and Cerb and Raven need work.


What Caldari ships are NOT currently broken? All are in desperate need of some actual balance. CCP has instead decided to nerf them. And I include in this the "impoved" Moa and Caracal.

And let's not forget, they have already said that they have more nerfs coming. The TD thing might well wipe out rocket frigates, and if TDs become the must-fit module (and if they work, they will be) then things will only be that much worse.

Honestly, there is no reason to bother talking about it, so I think I will stop wasting my time. CCP clearly doesn't give a damn about balance. If they did they would not be proposing the things that they are.

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4472 - 2012-10-09 22:28:14 UTC
OT Smithers wrote:
Lallante wrote:
Showing how ships that were broken before the changes are broken after the changes proves nothing. Even CCP have admitted NH and Cerb and Raven need work.


What Caldari ships are NOT currently broken? All are in desperate need of some actual balance. CCP has instead decided to nerf them. And I include in this the "impoved" Moa and Caracal.

And let's not forget, they have already said that they have more nerfs coming. The TD thing might well wipe out rocket frigates, and if TDs become the must-fit module (and if they work, they will be) then things will only be that much worse.

Honestly, there is no reason to bother talking about it, so I think I will stop wasting my time. CCP clearly doesn't give a damn about balance. If they did they would not be proposing the things that they are.

So having a weapons system that far outclasses it's peers is balanced?
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4473 - 2012-10-09 23:07:32 UTC
You say HML are OP because they are better than their peers in a certain range window? I agree on the fact they are better, and much better in that range window. And I agree too, this range window is maybe too big. But first you have to see that paper stats are not all, there are soft stats apart from range and DPS even for weapons, not only for ships. And then this advantage of the so OP HMLs seems to be not so big anymore, you see, they work on just 2 ships .. so I say HML may be OP in medium lr, but they are not more OP in real Eve gameplay than medium and large ACs or large Pulses are OP in comparison to Caldaris peers. Nor are HML more OP compared to their peers than large Beams or large Arty or large Rails are OP in comparison to Cruises.

And second: if this is the only working thing you have AT ALL in missile PvP, yes, thats balance, even when in this one single aspect Caldari might be the best. Or like others say, balance in imbalance. The Drake has this single role, and no other missile PvP ship above frig for Caldari has any role at all. How can you call this OP for Caldari? I would gladly trade superiority in that one single role (which does not really exist outside nullsec anyway) for being on par in all combat roles with a variety of working missile (=signature weapon for Caldari) combat ships in medium and large size.

But - this proposed change (nerf) will not give this to Caldari. It will just screw what they had, without giving anything back.

And for all those who come back now with "stop comparing ACs with HML" - learn. to. read. Really.
Lili Lu
#4474 - 2012-10-09 23:11:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
OT Smithers wrote:
Lallante wrote:
Showing how ships that were broken before the changes are broken after the changes proves nothing. Even CCP have admitted NH and Cerb and Raven need work.


What Caldari ships are NOT currently broken? All are in desperate need of some actual balance. CCP has instead decided to nerf them. And I include in this the "impoved" Moa and Caracal.

And let's not forget, they have already said that they have more nerfs coming. The TD thing might well wipe out rocket frigates, and if TDs become the must-fit module (and if they work, they will be) then things will only be that much worse.

Honestly, there is no reason to bother talking about it, so I think I will stop wasting my time. CCP clearly doesn't give a damn about balance. If they did they would not be proposing the things that they are.

Yeah, everyone is flying Gallente. And look at all the Heavy Beam ships flying out there. And all those newly rebalanced gallente and amarr turret and drone frigs are just laughing it up against Hookbills, Condors, and Merlins. We should preserve the rocket boats ability to ignore TDs just like those turret boats can. Roll

Stepping away from my sarcasm that just showed how ridiculous your first two paragraphs are, I agree with you that they have to be careful with the TD/TC/TE changes for reasons other than just that the mod becomes universal. The universal use of TDs could be easily addressed by giving it a base stat nerf. That addresses the current op use of it against turret ships, and it also prevents the universal use of it to affect missile boats as well.

A base nerf on the TD strength also makes the specialized boats more valuable, possibly almost as valuable as ecm boats currently are.

Additionally, the TE and TC effects on missiles have to be rather weak as well. Increased tracking currently is not going to make a 425 an easy frig killer at any range and speed. An explosion radius or speed bonused LM, HM or HAM could though. And the new missile destroyers are already getting a bonus on explosion parameters.

I suspect the valid concern many of us have raised about not creating a new TD a la old-style multispec, and the possible synergy of these new TC/TE mods with the new missile destroyers making them op, are the reasons they decided to delay the new TD/TC/TE effects. They obviously decided to think the numbers through more. And, btw, I think it had much less to do with any complaining itt.

So you see they do care about balance. It is their job. Do you really think they think their job is to nerf a fictional race of spaceships in this game? For what reason? Do they want to persecute you and laugh at you? Seriously, you think that?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4475 - 2012-10-09 23:29:25 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
You say HML are OP because they are better than their peers in a certain range window? I agree on the fact they are better, and much better in that range window. And I agree too, this range window is maybe too big. But first you have to see that paper stats are not all, there are soft stats apart from range and DPS even for weapons, not only for ships. And then this advantage of the so OP HMLs seems to be not so big anymore, you see, they work on just 2 ships .. so I say HML may be OP in medium lr, but they are not more OP in real Eve gameplay than medium and large ACs or large Pulses are OP in comparison to Caldaris peers. Nor are HML more OP compared to their peers than large Beams or large Arty or large Rails are OP in comparison to Cruises.

Large weapons are designed around larger engagement envelopes so infringing upon the smaller LR turrets is to be expected, but that is something that all the med LR turrets have to face. It doesn't give HM's a free pass any more than it does for 250mm rails. That being said if the SR options on both large and medium are lacking to the point that HM's are the only goto it means those systems need fixed, which the TC/TE and skill changes are working towards in some respects.
Noemi Nagano wrote:

And second: if this is the only working thing you have AT ALL in missile PvP, yes, thats balance, even when in this one single aspect Caldari might be the best. Or like others say, balance in imbalance. The Drake has this single role, and no other missile PvP ship above frig for Caldari has any role at all. How can you call this OP for Caldari? I would gladly trade superiority in that one single role (which does not really exist outside nullsec anyway) for being on par in all combat roles with a variety of working missile (=signature weapon for Caldari) combat ships in medium and large size.

No, outclassing a role in one size while lacking in others is the very definition of imbalance. It means the ships are subpar and one weapon is OP. This isn't balance. This creates the situation we are facing now where if you touch either the system or the 2 ships that use it effectively you get the same backlash. Touch the drake and Tengu and Caldari PvP is dead since those were the only viable non-frigate options. Touch HM's and Caldari PvP is dead because the only viable choices used that weapon to be competitive.
Noemi Nagano wrote:
But - this proposed change (nerf) will not give this to Caldari. It will just screw what they had, without giving anything back.

And for all those who come back now with "stop comparing ACs with HML" - learn. to. read. Really.

Those comparisons are exactly what people are doing. Either comparing DPS of HM Drakes to AC Canes or comparing to a completely different tier of weapon by comparing to AC Tornadoes. I'd love to have gotten the whole package with all the changes and make HAM's and torps have greater range and better damage application without TP juggling but we'll have to wait on that (in part, the guided missile projection skill and related rigs/implants applying should help).
Lili Lu
#4476 - 2012-10-09 23:40:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Noemi Nagano wrote:
You say HML are OP because they are better than their peers in a certain range window? I agree on the fact they are better, and much better in that range window. And I agree too, this range window is maybe too big. But first you have to see that paper stats are not all, there are soft stats apart from range and DPS even for weapons, not only for ships. And then this advantage of the so OP HMLs seems to be not so big anymore, you see, they work on just 2 ships .. so I say HML may be OP in medium lr, but they are not more OP in real Eve gameplay than medium and large ACs or large Pulses are OP in comparison to Caldaris peers. Nor are HML more OP compared to their peers than large Beams or large Arty or large Rails are OP in comparison to Cruises.


Two ships are used so heavily because they are the best for that weapon system either in dps or isk/efficiency. Were it not for the cheapness of a Drake in isk and sp, the Cerb would look better. Were it not for the dps of the Tengu the Nighthawk would look better. They all have very good tanks.

I italisized your above quote where I have to ask what are you saying. Medium pulse and medium ac are roughly being used in equal numbers. Medium blasters are not. That shows you the importance of range. And, you seem to miss the strength of TE falloff bonuses on medium ac use.

Falloff sucks. But to have TEs give so much a larger bonus on falloff than optimal makes ac dps loss from falloff still workable. Then combine that with speed advantages falloff becomes even less of a suck. And the numbers on medium pulse are coming solely from heavy Zealot use. The Zealot is not used though for the damage being op. It is used because you can fit them on a ship with decent ab speed and a heavy tank (new tech II 1600 plates and sig tanking), and still have decent enough range for a short range weapon system. There is no such combination for blasters and Gallente boats. DPS projection still languishes. So yes, neither medium ac or medium pulse are op in comparison with each other, unlike HMs v all the other medium long range weapons.

Noemi Nagano wrote:
And second: if this is the only working thing you have AT ALL in missile PvP, yes, thats balance, even when in this one single aspect Caldari might be the best. Or like others say, balance in imbalance. The Drake has this single role, and no other missile PvP ship above frig for Caldari has any role at all. How can you call this OP for Caldari? I would gladly trade superiority in that one single role (which does not really exist outside nullsec anyway) for being on par in all combat roles with a variety of working missile (=signature weapon for Caldari) combat ships in medium and large size.

But - this proposed change (nerf) will not give this to Caldari. It will just screw what they had, without giving anything back.


You appear to be ignoring all the little buffs CCP has recently and will be giving to small and medium missiles other than HMs. Caldari is far from getting screwed in the frigate rebalancing. In fact the Caldari frigates are doing a lot better than their counterparts.

You keep whining about Cruises. Hell yeah they are lackluster. But that's just it. Read the OP again. Fozzie stated they had to address the medium weapon systems at this time because the current imbalances were fubarring any attempts to comprehensively rebalance medium ships, Cruisers.

Welcome to the crowd wishing they could get to everything at once. But they can't/won't. So fixes to Cruises or Torps and thus to BSs will have to wait til they get to that step. And the Nighthawk may have to wait longer since I suspect they will finish BSs before they address tech II ships (and that may start with frigs again, although I don't know why they couldn't work down in size when they get to tech II).

Lastly, I'm going to say to you again, you have to stop making assertions like "there are more Canes than Drakes in lowsec". You and I can have differing perceptions of use there, and state them. But neither you nor I can profess to have any statistical knowledge of the true lowsec usage numbers of those ships. CCP can though. And they apparently are not seeing the Drake plague as a solely nullsec phenomenon.
Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#4477 - 2012-10-09 23:43:27 UTC
The nerf hammer has been swung and as usual it doesn't fix much but rather just shifts the balance around, HMs are going to be quite crappy after this patch (like all medium LR weapons except Arties cause lol Winmatar), which in a sense is balance as all other medium LR weapons are crap so HMs are just being brought down to that level.

Psssst, HAMs are going to be where its at, new Caracal can have 400 dps @ 25km w/ 79m3 explosion radius, 2km/s and 24k EHP. Like almost all other medium weapon platforms, missiles are going to be either use short range weapons (which do damage to long point range which further reduces the need to ever use LR weapons) or go home.
irishFour
Almost Dangerous
#4478 - 2012-10-09 23:58:36 UTC
Let me get this strait.
I plan my gaming experience around the current format of YOUR game ccp, and i train heavy missile spec 5 (which i lost when podded 2 times in a row because im an idiot), get my battle cruiser skill to five, get a pimp tengu for both pvp and pve, and your changing it, and your response to some one asking "can I have my sp back" is no, its a transitional game.

I dedicated my time and money adapting to your game, flawed or not, doesn't matter to me, the game was in front of me and I and lots of other players dedicated months of training to become competent tengu and drake pilots.

Guess what CCP, i live in the drone lands, and as far as PVE content and Moon content, it sucks. It sucks a lot. and you know what people say, not all space is meant to be equal, want better space go conquer somewhere else, and take some one else 's space. Well guess what all you hml haters, drake haters, and tengu cry babies. If its the best ship/ships in the game for their classes, you should have trained for them, and nothings stoping you from training for them now. ALL this crying about the drake and tengu being too awesome, damn right its awesome, if it wasn't awesome, everything would be at the same sucky level.

Anyways, next my months and months of pimp mach skills are going to be nerfed cause it does 1250 dps at 72km. Too much applied dps and too much range, lets bring it down to 650 at 25km so it can be like everything else.

We dont live in a fair world, and its always the same people crying and trolling at the same time. the drake is too good, the tengu is too good, if you dont like drones move cause its not as good. same people crying, and getting their way.

hello month of hams

I like to have my cake and eat it too
Ocih
Space Mermaids
#4479 - 2012-10-10 00:20:27 UTC
I gave up caring what you do to HML but I question the result or goal you have CCP.

We used to have sniper fleets that worked the battle field from 249 km. Now a sniper fleet is seen as anything 100 km out. You seem hell bent on leather to make us play some hug a thug game, getting fleets to come in closer and closer. It just seems that everything you do isn't about balance, it's about being contrary with play style.
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#4480 - 2012-10-10 00:25:36 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
You say HML are OP because they are better than their peers in a certain range window? I agree on the fact they are better, and much better in that range window. And I agree too, this range window is maybe too big. But first you have to see that paper stats are not all, there are soft stats apart from range and DPS even for weapons, not only for ships. And then this advantage of the so OP HMLs seems to be not so big anymore, you see, they work on just 2 ships .. so I say HML may be OP in medium lr, but they are not more OP in real Eve gameplay than medium and large ACs or large Pulses are OP in comparison to Caldaris peers. Nor are HML more OP compared to their peers than large Beams or large Arty or large Rails are OP in comparison to Cruises.


Two ships are used so heavily because they are the best for that weapon system either in dps or isk/efficiency. Were it not for the cheapness of a Drake in isk and sp, the Cerb would look better. Were it not for the dps of the Tengu the Nighthawk would look better. They all have very good tanks.

I italisized your above quote where I have to ask what are you saying. Medium pulse and medium ac are roughly being used in equal numbers. Medium blasters are not. That shows you the importance of range. And, you seem to miss the strength of TE falloff bonuses on medium ac use.

Falloff sucks. But to have TEs give so much a larger bonus on falloff than optimal makes ac dps loss from falloff still workable. Then combine that with speed advantages falloff becomes even less of a suck. And the numbers on medium pulse are coming solely from heavy Zealot use. The Zealot is not used though for the damage being op. It is used because you can fit them on a ship with decent ab speed and a heavy tank (new tech II 1600 plates and sig tanking), and still have decent enough range for a short range weapon system. There is no such combination for blasters and Gallente boats. DPS projection still languishes. So yes, neither medium ac or medium pulse are op in comparison with each other, unlike HMs v all the other medium long range weapons.

Noemi Nagano wrote:
And second: if this is the only working thing you have AT ALL in missile PvP, yes, thats balance, even when in this one single aspect Caldari might be the best. Or like others say, balance in imbalance. The Drake has this single role, and no other missile PvP ship above frig for Caldari has any role at all. How can you call this OP for Caldari? I would gladly trade superiority in that one single role (which does not really exist outside nullsec anyway) for being on par in all combat roles with a variety of working missile (=signature weapon for Caldari) combat ships in medium and large size.

But - this proposed change (nerf) will not give this to Caldari. It will just screw what they had, without giving anything back.


You appear to be ignoring all the little buffs CCP has recently and will be giving to small and medium missiles other than HMs. Caldari is far from getting screwed in the frigate rebalancing. In fact the Caldari frigates are doing a lot better than their counterparts.

You keep whining about Cruises. Hell yeah they are lackluster. But that's just it. Read the OP again. Fozzie stated they had to address the medium weapon systems at this time because the current imbalances were fubarring any attempts to comprehensively rebalance medium ships, Cruisers.

Welcome to the crowd wishing they could get to everything at once. But they can't/won't. So fixes to Cruises or Torps and thus to BSs will have to wait til they get to that step. And the Nighthawk may have to wait longer since I suspect they will finish BSs before they address tech II ships (and that may start with frigs again, although I don't know why they couldn't work down in size when they get to tech II).

Lastly, I'm going to say to you again, you have to stop making assertions like "there are more Canes than Drakes in lowsec". You and I can have differing perceptions of use there, and state them. But neither you nor I can profess to have any statistical knowledge of the true lowsec usage numbers of those ships. CCP can though. And they apparently are not seeing the Drake plague as a solely nullsec phenomenon.



I'll add to this. There's no NEED for optimal fleet setups/Doctrines in Low security space.
Also, hml-Drakes will still be very effective. The range is still intact (for the most part) and a Drake will still be doing significant damage to a cruiser.

Um!

The changes to Fury missile was significant and I'm not sure how I'll come to terms with it solo. However, in fleets it's as viable as close range ammunition in Railguns, Beam Lasers and Artillery. The damage is p much the same as it is now and with stasis webifiers applied; there should be no issue. Clearly a Drake will still have it's resistence bonus and large amount of hit points.

Anyway, a fleet commander or anyone putting together a fleet doctrine would be R3T@RD3D if they decided to throw Drakes out.

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]