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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4401 - 2012-10-08 10:50:07 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:


... but give something else for the meantime, so people will not unsub because they are fed up with being always on the receiving end.


if they'd rather unsub than adapt to other weapon systems, races etc then they're playing the wrong game anyways. o/ toodles

Noemi Nagano wrote:

And for those who say HAM will get buffed - we have to see if they will. And we have to see if they are actually on par then. Atm they are by far NOT.


so when HAM's have a buff in line ur talk about how u need to wait and see how it works in the real game before u decide whether its justified or not, but when HML's get nerfed its 'ZOMG CALDARI ARE DEAD, UNSUB!' before u know what they'll be like? it could very well be that the HML becomes useless and then get some love back later, but right now they eclispse all other medium long range weapons, which needs to change.



If something "right now eclipses" its pendant, then you say it needs change? I wonder how you justify there is no nerf for Projectiles as a total then, and Zealots, and most Winmatar ships ... seriously, there cant be perfect balance in a game like Eve as long as you dont give everyone the same. But if a system/ship combo is good in some things and not good in others, and others are vice versa for ME (and many others) this is balance.

You will see no more missile hulls of Caldari in top 20 eve kill net after this change. But you will still see all those Amarr and esp. Winmatar ships there ... if you feel that is good, fine for you. I dont, and I can use them all too. But I dont like unbalanced games ....
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4402 - 2012-10-08 11:02:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Noemi Nagano
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Anyone saying caldari have no option to pvp beside drake is a fool and don't pvp so much. That have been said plenty of times and is more wrong at each now line of ship revealed for rebalance.

For the point with the Ferox, Just look at range of new fury on bonused velocity hull, like the cerberus : oh ! 30km with fury ! When comparing something, use something comparable please. BTW, Ferox is a caldari hull, pretty ironic...

Like these statistics : a length of 5 days for statistics don't even cover a week. Who knows if there wasn't twice more drakes the two days after this selection ?

Statistics showing the overabundance of drake are stats based on SEVERAL YEARS of data. I could choose a set of data covering only 2h of a brawl between two huge drake fleet, and statistic would show than near 100% of ships flown are drakes, but that wouldn't be a proof. The statistics showing about the zealot are just that : a picture of the week. But I'm losing my time because you obviously don't have a clue of how to use statistics.

And anyway, statistics never have been the only proof of HML superiority : the fact that you compare them to AC or other ships is selfexplaining, but you don't even see it : if HML were in line with other LONG RANGE MEDIUM weapons, why aren't we seing more Ferox ? Or more arty cane fleets ? Alpha is supposed to be very powerful, and yet, we see Maelstrom or tornado or tempest fleet, but no alpha hurricane fleets. There is munin fleet though, and sometimes some loki fleets, but the most common is arty BS. But for any one of those ships, there is a drake or two flying...

The argument for this is that there is no other missile system to use. And besides the fact that a sub par weapon system don't make another one good (FC just go to another ship, or you would see fleets of blaster frigates), this is wrong. HAM drake would be very powerful, but they are completely outshined by HML. HML are better than HAM in most cases. Though it's not because HAM are bad, they are not, they only have the drawback of short range weapon systems. But HML are so much better in so many circumstances, you always have a better time fitting them.

For all the other missiles, and the large one above all the others, well, a fix would have came with TE/TC, but you don't even saw it...


Your posting is so full of nonsense, but thats no wonder - you are Gallente only in your ships, so your idea of missiles may lack a bit the first hand thing :)

first of all: I never compared HML with AC in a way that I said one system has to be same like other. I compared HML with Arty, and HAM with AC. And I said as long as AC is superior to HAM (which it is, no questions asked, even an unbonused ship like Myrm will rip HAM Drake when AC fitted) it is perfectly legitimate HML are better than Arty. Because then each of those weapon types has a place: Projectiles shine in ACs, missiles shine in HML. And are subpar in the other area. If you change both, its ok. Or if you leave both. But if you just nerf HMLs to be "in line" without buffing HAMs so they are in line (which they are not, and which they wont be with *this* patch idea! Has been showed by others before ... so I wont go into that *again*) too, then its a plain nerf and no balance. If you fail to see that you are beyond help, seriously.

second: I agreed (dont know how many times now) that the *range window* where HML outclass medium lr turrets is too big. It should be two windows, for which we would need long range ammo (it doesnt make sense to cut HMLs range too much, since it is a long range system. If we ruin this we have no more long range system at all for missile users, which would not be balanced either) with LOWER DPS than current ammo, and cut flight times of shorter range higher DPS ammo.

third: name the Caldari missile PvP ships please which are a viable alternative atm in above frig size PvP.

fourth: no, the fix with TE/TC would not have brought what you thought it would. Which is because missiles have different attributes than turrets. And we have flight time. And we have damage mitigation by any high speed movement, not just high transversal ...

fifth: its *never* a weapon system alone. In Eve we fly ships, and they all have a ton more attributes than the ones you guys always talk about. If it would be all EHP/range/DPS, then yes. Caldaris Drake would be OP. Since in actual game its also Ewar, speed, agility, versatility, drone bay and so on Caldari are not OP. Duh.

sixth: show me the numbers for lowsec, and you will see what I (and many others here!) say: Canes outnumber Drakes by 2 or 3 to 1 there.

And no, after this patch there wont be more Drakes, but less. If you have the chance to use something subpar and something above par or on par, only hardcore freaks would chose the first option, which is where Caldari will be in missile PvP above Frig. Maybe you are happy about that, I am not.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#4403 - 2012-10-08 11:06:02 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
For the point with the Ferox, Just look at range of new fury on bonused velocity hull, like the cerberus : oh ! 30km with fury ! When comparing something, use something comparable please. BTW, Ferox is a caldari hull, pretty ironic...


It was the first one open on my EFT. Point was saying "OH NOES THE RANGE IS TERRIBLE [ON UNBONUSED HULLS]" is...daft P
xinthorminaias
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#4404 - 2012-10-08 11:57:07 UTC
Big nerfs like this are very bad for the game. They give the impression of a poorly managed game and undermine the notion that Eve is real, and yes they will result in some lost subscriptions (this will be the last straw for some) and for what gain? IF there is imbalance, and I say "if" because the stats I've seen in this forum are not at all conclusive when taking account of real world circumstances, then the way to deal with is a way that does not break the continuity of the game. If the problem is one of Drake blobs then a far better solution would be for the other races to have better missile defences to nullify this.

An inherent feature of missiles is that they should pack the most punch, should have the longest range, but are vulnerable to interception. Defender missiles are one problem that could be fixed at the same time. (And yes I have read Fozzie's comment about them using too much CPU - I say think again and more creatively). Blasters, Rail Guns and Lasers are also weapon systems with potential anti-missile ability, especially against missiles that have been in flight for a while and their trajectory has been assessed. There must be ways these could be used/adapted such as probability based interception that would not introduce significant load while having the desired and real world effect.

As proposed this nerf is just fertile ground for the laws of unintended consequences. Please Please build the game forwards rather then trying to re-invent it. This not only makes the game more fun for all players it will bring in more revenue for CCP.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#4405 - 2012-10-08 12:43:19 UTC
Eve has not had any real balancing done for several years which is why so many things are being adressed... Believe it or not but this will attract not only new players but a lot of the old ones too. Veteran players sick of T3 strategic cruisers being the subcap win button on so many levels as well as caps/super caps needing major attention not only for the people facing them, but also for the people flying them.

Viva la Revolution - Viva la balance - Viva la Eve

Obviously it would be an illusion to believe that all of this will be perfect and I already see a few eye sores in the cruiser rebalance but this is a major thumbs up for T1 ships and Im sure the rest will be balanced as soon as possible.

Pinky
Signal11th
#4406 - 2012-10-08 12:59:49 UTC
xinthorminaias wrote:
Big nerfs like this are very bad for the game. They give the impression of a poorly managed game and undermine the notion that Eve is real, and yes they will result in some lost subscriptions (this will be the last straw for some) and for what gain? IF there is imbalance, and I say "if" because the stats I've seen in this forum are not at all conclusive when taking account of real world circumstances, then the way to deal with is a way that does not break the continuity of the game. If the problem is one of Drake blobs then a far better solution would be for the other races to have better missile defences to nullify this.

An inherent feature of missiles is that they should pack the most punch, should have the longest range, but are vulnerable to interception. Defender missiles are one problem that could be fixed at the same time. (And yes I have read Fozzie's comment about them using too much CPU - I say think again and more creatively). Blasters, Rail Guns and Lasers are also weapon systems with potential anti-missile ability, especially against missiles that have been in flight for a while and their trajectory has been assessed. There must be ways these could be used/adapted such as probability based interception that would not introduce significant load while having the desired and real world effect.

As proposed this nerf is just fertile ground for the laws of unintended consequences. Please Please build the game forwards rather then trying to re-invent it. This not only makes the game more fun for all players it will bring in more revenue for CCP.




The problem with missles is that they use to much server power, anything that conteracts missle will require just as much, hint, hint

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4407 - 2012-10-08 14:08:51 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
third: name the Caldari missile PvP ships please which are a viable alternative atm in above frig size PvP.


Onyx
Caracal/Caracal Navy Issue
Tengu
Rook
Drake
Widow
Flycatcher
Raven
Scorpion

You have to remember that Caldari isn't just about missiles:
Basilisk
Ferox
Naga
Rokh
Chimera
Falcon

And so on...
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#4408 - 2012-10-08 14:13:53 UTC
Raven.......

I'm going with LOLWUT on that one.
Doddy
Excidium.
#4409 - 2012-10-08 14:24:40 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
third: name the Caldari missile PvP ships please which are a viable alternative atm in above frig size PvP.


Onyx
Caracal/Caracal Navy Issue
Tengu
Rook
Drake
Widow
Flycatcher
Raven
Scorpion

You have to remember that Caldari isn't just about missiles:
Basilisk
Ferox
Naga
Rokh
Chimera
Falcon

And so on...


Moa is wtfbbq as well despite what some people seem to think, not to mention blackbird. Vulture is great.

Basically Raven is limited thanks to torps fail with no tackle and broken cruise, the hacs are too fragile/low dps and the nighthawk while currently not too bad (though totally eclipsed by tengu) is going to be screwed by the hml change unless it gets ham friendly buffing. The phoenix is limited thanks to citadel missiles but still has a role and the supercaps are shield tankers in an armour tankers world (plus levi has same probs as phoenix). Other than that caldari ships are pretty much fine.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#4410 - 2012-10-08 14:30:31 UTC
Doddy wrote:
Moa is wtfbbq as well despite what some people seem to think, not to mention blackbird. Vulture is great.

Basically Raven is limited thanks to torps fail with no tackle and broken cruise, the hacs are too fragile/low dps and the nighthawk while currently not too bad (though totally eclipsed by tengu) is going to be screwed by the hml change unless it gets ham friendly buffing. The phoenix is limited thanks to citadel missiles but still has a role and the supercaps are shield tankers in an armour tankers world (plus levi has same probs as phoenix). Other than that caldari ships are pretty much fine.


I imagine much of the 'reputation' for the non-missile hulls stems from the days of hybrids being utterly, utterly terrible.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4411 - 2012-10-08 14:34:30 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Raven.......

I'm going with LOLWUT on that one.


Know any better ships for structure shooting other than Abaddon and Rev?
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#4412 - 2012-10-08 14:45:16 UTC
Ever see what a torp Raven does to whatever is in front of it?

Sure, it can't solo much of anything but as an Amarr only pilot I can assure you that is not all there is .. Caldari and Amarr has always been co-op biased with hulls that are so specialized that they need one another to succeed (how often do you see solo Zealots? Smile).

Once you let go of the idea that PvP must be a solo endeavour you'll realise that Caldari actually has a lot going for it; unsurpassed damage projection, ECM, selectable damage types, ECM, more midslots than God, ECM and best of all .. an amicable relationship with Amarr Smile
Lord Ryan
True Xero
#4413 - 2012-10-08 14:59:15 UTC
"DIE IN A FIRE"

Do not assume anything above this line was typed by me. Nerf the Truth, it's inconvenient.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#4414 - 2012-10-08 15:38:45 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Raven.......

I'm going with LOLWUT on that one.


Know any better ships for structure shooting other than Abaddon and Rev?


PoS bashing isn't my typical "PvP" vision tbh Smile
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#4415 - 2012-10-08 16:23:00 UTC
Deerin wrote:
Cormorant IS a beast. You need to fly it properly.


Yeah... okay.

Quote:
Blackbird is one of the best(and cheapest) force multipliers in the game. Moa is quite strong if you play to its strengths. Caracal is going to become the FOTM after this patch.


The Blackbird (and all other ECM ships) are support ships rather than a combat ships. Relatively few people want to fly these things, and in any case CCP is talking about nerfing them. The MOA is not quite strong when compared to it's competetors, which is why basically no one flies them. And this update doesn't help. In many respects the MOA will become worse than it is today (see the thread for details), and when compared to the improved Rupture and Vexor it will be laughably underpowered.

The Caracal today is a niche ship, and not a particularly good one, which is why no one uses them. After this update the HML Caracal will see it's already poor dps nerfed yet again. It is possible to fit it with AMLs for use as an anti-frigate platform (as can also be done today), but it's a poor choice for the job. Fitted in this way it pushes T1 frigate dps; it has no drones; it has no neuts; it lacks the mids to fit prop, scram, web, and a respectable tank; and it's not even particularly fast. Where it got a nerf, the T1 frigates and cruisers it is expected to face will all have gotten respectable buffs.


Quote:
Who does? Most of HAC's are made obsolote by tier2 and tier3 bc's....Scorpion and Rokh have just made a sad face at you.


The answer to this would be Minmatar, Amarr, and Gallente. The Zealot is currently the number one killer in the game. The Vagabond is the best ship in the game at what it does. The Muninn isnt a Zealot, and is arguable outclassed by the Nado (and the arty cane), but it's solid and some people seem to like it. The Ishtar, Sac, and Deimos are all solid ships seen often in game.

The Caldari Eagle is currently selling for SCRAP price in Jita -- I don't believe I have ever actually seen one used in game. The Cerberus is just broken. It does poor and delayed damage at long ranges, but it's slow, suffers from terrible cap, and it has a poor tank. The Cerebus is the ship every Caldari pilot really wants to fly, so they buy one, fly it once or twice, and then sell it. And incredibly, CCP is NERFING it yet again.

I discussed ECM ships above. The Rokh is actually not that bad. It's not that good either, but it's not that bad.

Quote:
Condor's are very widely used after the patch. I've a few in my hangar too. You should try them.


All of the Caldari frigates are at worst okay, and some are now fantastic.

Quote:
....and what is the point of all this in the HEAVY MISSILE balancing thread.


Simple. Right now Caldari pilots are pretty well screwed when it comes to the ships that they can use, and Caldari missile pilots -- the folks choosing to use their race's signature weapon -- are completely hosed. They have a few nice frigates, they have some ECM ships, and they have the Drake. CCP plans to hammer them yet again.

Post update, until the TD nerf comes in, Caldari pilots will have a solid frigate lineup and a new missile destroyer that looks fantastic.
Their cruisers, currently the worst in the game, will be comparatively even worse off then they are today
Their BC will go from being situationally "overpowered," to situationally average and poor everywhere else
Their HACs, currently the worst in the game (and selling for scrap prices in Jita), will be nerfed yet again
Their Command ships, currently the worst in the game, will be nerfed yet again
Their Battleships will remain as they are today -- that is to say the worst in the game.

Seriously, this is balance?

I don't fly Caldari. CCP can delete the whole race from the game and the only ship that would vanish from my Hangar is a badger mark one. I trained Caldari, and I have a lot of SP in Caldari ships, but I realized long ago that if I wanted to play the game I needed to switch races. But what, exactly, are the Caldari pilots who didn't abandon the race supposed to fly?

This is the frigate and cruiser balance pass. Caldari pilots have nothing to wait for, this is it. This is the big "fix." And CCP has decided to fix things by making the races that are already good, even better -- and the race that is currently screwed, even worse than it is today. In this, CCP is like a policeman who finds a sex-crime victim in an ally, panties hanging off one ankle, and instead of reaching for their radio to call an ambulance, they reach for their zipper.
ORCACommander
Obsidian Firelance Technologies
#4416 - 2012-10-08 16:34:45 UTC
All this rhetoric makes me sad.
OracleRez
Doomheim
#4417 - 2012-10-08 16:45:55 UTC
NiGhTTraX wrote:
The current Drake with 7x T2 HML launchers and 2x T2 BCU, firing T1 Scourge Heavy Missiles outputs 321 DPS.
With 7x T2 HAM launchers and 2x T2 BCU, firing Scourge outputs 401 DPS.

The Hurricane with 6x T2 720mm Artys and 2x T2 Gyrostabs with EMP outputs 371 DPS.
The Hurricane with 6x T2 425mm Autocannons and 2x T2 Gyrostabs with EMP outputs 477 DPS.

The new Drake will only have 0.8 x 321 = 257 DPS at a 25% lower range or 320 DPS with HAMs. It becomes the shittiest battlecruiser in terms of DPS. And if you nerf it further by reducing its tank, well....

Oh and now they can be tracking disrupted? So let me get this straight. Missiles will loose some of their range, will have the lowest DPS among weapons, they have flight time and they will also be tracking disrupted? And their only advantage will remain the ability to choose damage types? (which no one does because of the kinetic bonus on Caldari hulls) Did I mention that missiles can be smartbombed or taken out with defenders? Goodbye solo missile platforms!

CCP Frozie wrote:
The upshot is that fitting a full rack of 720s with a MWD and LSE and full mids and lows will require a RCUII and either an ACR or PG implant. Also fitting a standard shield autocane with neuts and LSE will require dropping a few guns down to 220mm.


No other high tier battlecruiser requires implants or gun downgrading to fulfill its intended purpose. These decisions seem terrible on paper imho.

TDs will be the new and improved ECM. At least with ECM you're taking the risk of bringing the wrong jammer. If TD effects will apply to everything there's absolutely no reason to not bring one.


I agree completely, i like this guy already! think about sucky dps on missile boats (becasue they already suck in pvp, and now adding tracking disrupting on top of it?..) BTW i think tracking disrupting on missiles would really only need to be the only "change" to missiles .
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4418 - 2012-10-08 16:51:19 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Raven.......

I'm going with LOLWUT on that one.


Know any better ships for structure shooting other than Abaddon and Rev?


PoS bashing isn't my typical "PvP" vision tbh Smile


It is PvP. It can also lead to combat that you see as PvP.
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#4419 - 2012-10-08 17:21:00 UTC
S4nn4 wrote:
OT Smithers wrote:
There has been a fair amount of talk about this upcoming nerf on our corp / alliance TS. Some of the folks commenting fly Drakes, but the majority do not. The concensus among these folks is that these nerfs are ridiculous and that CCP is seriously screwing Caldari pilots yet again. I say concensus, but in fact not a single person thought these nerfs were a good idea or justified.

It really brings home the problem Caldari pilots are facing right now. Their current destroyer is pretty much crap. None of their cruisers are worth flying and this will only get worse with this update. They don't have a working HAC. Their BS's are garbage. Right now, they have tough, slow, low DPS frigates, and they have the Drake. And CCP has proposed nerfing that.

In a short term perspective, yes, Caldari's will have it a little rougher. But the ship balancing isn't ending with the HML nerf. The HML nerf is made just so that medium missile ships can be properly balanced and get the hardpoints and slot layout they need to be competitive (but not overpowered).
The alternative, when an intrinsically overpowered weapon system exists, is to make all ships that use them weaker. Perhaps by taking away a high and a medium slot (for a launcher and a TC respectively) during the rebalance. Would that be more acceptable? So that Amarr, Minmatar and Gallente ships have 15 slots and Caldari's have 13.

It's not fun to be an underdog, even if it is just during a transition period. The Caldari's has enough bad ships as it is. But lets not forget the aim of the rebalancing: to make all ships into viable choices. This includes the Caldari ships. Fozzie just needs some more time.


This is the balance pass.

How many more years does CCP need? Hell, until a year ago Caldari pilots didn't even have frigates -- rockets and hybrids were still broken. They had the Drake and fifty other broken hulls. And people said that was okay, Caldari were the PvE race, and they had the Drake. Not that folks outside nullsec blobs and mission runners actually used the Drake all that often, but Caldari had it. And for years they have been told that they should be content with that. So what are people going to say now? They gonna say "Oh, well, you have the 100dps Condor!" But CCP has more missile nerfs coming down the pipe, with TDs soon to be destroying missiles, so just how awesome will the Condor (and the soon to be nerfed Drake) be then?

Does ANYONE, outside the fine folks at CCP, actually think the new and improved Moa is balanced against the improved Rupture or the Vexor? Hell, the improved Moa is trash compared to the CURRENT Rupture and Vexor, the new super Ruppie and Vexor are gonna be insane. And the new Caracal will do worse dps than the one we have decorating so many hangars today. CCP didn't improve it with this plan, they nerfed it -- it's a cruiser that does frigate DPS, with no neuts or drones. The Minmatar EWAR cruiser will be a better missile boat than the Caldari missile cruiser, the Minmatar missile Frigate will be a better missile boat than the Caldari missile cruiser -- that's CCPs idea of balance. It's flat ridiculous.

I just feel sorry for the people who have stuck with it and trusted CCP. People who have put months or years into training their Caldari missile skills and ships, all patiently waiting for CCP to eventually make it right. People like the woman in my corporation. She is an embarassed Caldari missile pilot, that's what she does. When it comes to Cruisers, the most prolific class of ships in the game, she can fly them all, but she flies Caldari, so she doesn't have any that are worth flying. She has only the soon-to-be-nerfed Drake and the lol-Raven. And now, with this update, she has announced that she is giving up. After years of waiting she is gonna abandon Caldari and train Minmatar. And what can you say? If you want to play the game and be competetive, you cannot fly Caldari. That's what this balance pass was supposed to correct, but instead CCP has decided to make things worse.
Manfred Hideous
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#4420 - 2012-10-08 17:30:17 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
:Edit: I've updated this post with the 2.0 versions of this proposal. Changes are underlined and can be found described in this post. Some big sets of responses to questions about the original proposal can be found here and here.:

Google doc with numbers for the affected missiles.

Hello everyone! we've got another F&I balance thread for you all, covering tentative plans for missiles in the Winter expansion plus a hurricane fittings nerf that doesn't really need it's own thread.

I'd like to start off by reminding people that everything in these F&I threads is open to changes, however there are some significant balance issues being dealt with here that will need to be solved in one way or another. There are also some details that remain to be ironed out but we wanted to get these ideas out to you all as early as possible.

I'll start off with the orphan announcement. In the Attack Cruiser thread we also announced changes to medium gun fittings. We're going to be changing the hurricane at the same time but I wanted that thread to stay dedicated to the specific cruiser balance instead of getting derailed so we're moving that here.
Since we planning to reduce the powergrid needs of all medium artillery by 10% across the board, we are also planning to subtract 225 PG from the Hurricane, leaving it with a base powergrid of 1125.
The upshot is that fitting a full rack of 720s with a MWD and LSE and full mids and lows will require a RCUII and either an ACR or PG implant. Also fitting a standard shield autocane with neuts and LSE will require dropping a few guns down to 220mm.
The hurricane will likely receive significantly more changes when we get to battlecruisers in the balance pass, but this is designed as a compensation for the drop in Arty PG and to help alleviate the problem of Arty ships having so much free PG when they use autocannons.


They aren't really artillery ships when the have autocannons fitted, right? Blink

I see the need to tweak the cane so that it can't fit the medium neuts but I think this nerf went a little too far. wouldn't is suffice to make the cane require an RCUII for an artillery fitting instead of also requiring a rig or implant? With seven heavy beams, the harb can sport a 1600mm plate and be within 1% of its PG and with the turret PG changes should fit nicely after the patch. The drake has always been able to fully fit its LR weapons and only requires a PDSII to pull off dual LSEs

As I said, I mostly support this nerf. I just think it should be somewhat reduced in severity.