Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Has been for a lot of pages. When these changes hit the test server there will likely be a new thread in that subforum. But the endless overly dramatic reactions of "just delete missiles etc." is getting tiring. Hell, the Drake hasn't received its direct nerf while the Hurricane did, and there has been very little whining by Hurricane pilots compared to Drake. And the quality of the upset Cane pilot posts have been much better.

There will be an endless supply of mainly pve centric players that hardly ever read the forums or post here. They will keep slowly learning of this change, and decide to not read the op or the rest of the thread closely, and thus make the same reactionary and unstudied overly-emotional posts.

On the other hand. Closing this thread would just result in even more whining OPs and new threads on this change, than there already are, in GD and S&M. So it may be better to leave it open. But at this point I wouldn't blame Fozzie if he were to do what the whiners have accused him of in the past, and what he has demosnstrated he did not do. That is, to ignore this thread.

1. Missiles will be fine post nerf, in fact they will still probably be too good.
2. How much time you spent training them is completely irrelevant because they will still be quite functional, the only way it would be relevant was if they were removing hml's completely
3. Let me quote you "cause really everyone knows heavies are the best missile in the game" Thats why they need to be nerfed? because they aren't supposed to be best.

Just not true.

Please, please, please, get rid of the current reduced flight time for Precision missiles compared to non-precision. What's the point having a missile designed to hit fast moving targets when it runs out of flight time before it gets to them. What's worse, is that you can hit the fast targets with a T1 missile and not a T2 precision!

Reducing the effective range for heavies by 25% for will makes this even worse than it already is....

P.S. Whilst you're changing EW effects related to missiles, review the idea of making ECM affect rate of fire, so it behaves in a consistent way like the other EW.

Please please please. T2 missiles were hardly used before, so how can anyone say that they will be nerfed ? Removing the penalties on them is an amazing buff considering how powerful these ammo can be ; though, like turrets, they are situational.

This thread is boring.

PS : HML are OP compared to other medium size gun, not compared to other sized weapons. The fact that you need to use the argument of cruise missiles or torp to prove they are not OP is an amazing fail and a proof that they are indeed OP.
PS2 : small size missiles are used, and they are *deadly*.

So, you will maybe care to explain me that again, because I have yet to see proof for your theory. My question to you comes later in the text.

What I see in this thread, and implicite in your post too, is claims about

1) HML being OP in comparison to other systems (unbonused stats comparison, fitted ships comparison on maximum range of HML in EFT)

2) HML are OP because the Drake and Tengu rule all, and Eve is in fact Drake online.

3) HML are OP because in nullsec .. and so on.

What I dont see is a serious analysis of the weapon system in its actual INGAME use in PvP.

I hope we can agree on this: stats alone mean nothing, important is, whats actually happening in the game. Else we would not be playing Eve but EFT.

What I can see *in the game* is:

- HML/Drake/Tengu are used a lot in PvE (although Tengu is by no means a contender for "best PvE mission ship", that goes to Machariel, with Vargur a close second, then Nightmare and Paladin (esp. when EM/Therm is what you want to deal), then with some distance Tengu in kinetic missions, and then some more distance Tengu in other missions). Drake is the best BC for level 4 missions, simply because the others cant tank and deal damage in the same way. All of Drakes strongpoints work in PvE, all of its weaks are kind of irrelevant there.

- HML/Drake blobs are very strong in nullsec (low SP req, low cost, fast ship in comparison to BS)

- in lowsec and highsec PvP the Drake is present, but by no means in an unbalanced way. As many stated above, the meta game doesnt favour Drakes there, thats why most people prefer a Cane over a Drake.

Now the question to you: Where exactly do you get the basis for your assumption, the HML/Drake combination would be an issue ingame OUTSIDE nullsec?

The nullsec scenario could be solved easily by buffing CMs so they are actually a VIABLE weapon system for PvP. CM/Raven/Phoon would annihilate Drakeblobs, and still not be OP due to them being 1) more expensive and 2) more skill intense, in addition also a fair bit slower, so other BS could do something against them.

Apart from that, simply ask yourself this question - why is it, that people fit ACs and Arti on their Caldari, Gallente or Amarr ships? And why does NO one fit HMLs to his ship, except Drakes and Tengus? (other HML ships are either not used with HML - Caracal for example - or are not used at all - Cerberus, Nighthawk, and ships with no bonus are completely ignoring HML too ....) Maybe its not the system, even when its paper stats may look so good ... and please dont get me wrong, I dont want to talk about HMLs like they suck - they dont. But their strongpoints are better for PvE (and blobs) than for sophisticated PvP - reliable damage over a long range-window (0-max range). But they come in delayed, they can be outrun, their damage can be mitigated just by speed (no matter which direction unlike with turrets) .. and missiles can also be destroyed in space.

I hope you can see why this thread is still going - there are simply not enough people seeing the light yet ;)

HML are not OP compared to other medium sized guns per default. They are stronger than LR MT compared on their max range (and, admitted, a fair bit before that max). They are far weaker above missile max (=0 DPS), which comes sooner than some know. They are also not stronger than LR MT when those turrets can use high damage ammo (ranges below 35 km).

This means

below 35 km: LR MT > HML
35km-70km: HML >> LR MT
70km+: LR MT >>> HML

I agree though that this window is too big. There should be a catch up, simply by adding a dedicated long range ammo for missiles, which would work with lower DPS than standard ammo, but on higher ranges and with much higher velocity. So it would be versatile enough for mixed sniper fleets, not OP at all and give the Drake the chance to fight back without having a DPS-edge. It should all be balanced so there are maybe 2 range windows, for example 35-50 HML would use t1/faction ammo and be stronger than turrets, then from 50-70 where turrets have the edge and then from 70-80 where HML would be first again with long range ammo.

At this moment we see the 4 tier 2 BCs normally flown like that: Canes and Harbingers dedicated close range, Drake dedicated long range (Myrm is another thing, but that goes a bit far here). The Drake might be best of the bunch in long range, but in close range its definitely not. So each of them has a role.

About your "point" with this comparison of HML and CM/Torp - I am sorry, but you are the one who is wrong here.

Compare the potential DPS of a Destroyer with a CM/Raven and you see whats going on, esp. considering the fact those not really hot DPS wont even apply well ingame.

Again, when was the last time you saw CMs in PvP used with *success*? HML are not better than CM because HML are OP, but because CM are so terribly broken like the Caldari Platform for CMs, the Raven is broken.

Apart from that - never judge any platform alone by paper stats. HML are used on ships, and in fact they are so OP that they can be used with success on exactly 2 (!) ships. /sarcasm

Compare the stats of the ships, fit a picture and play the game - then you will see how this is not Drake online (apart from some places in nullsec maybe).

Noemi you are frankly full of it. You either trash citation to eve-kill statistics or attempt to minimize them by saying they only represent null sec drake usage. Where is your damn evidence for that? You supply your own anecdotal observations as if they are not subject to being questioned. My anecdotal observations are that drakes still outnumber Canes in lowsec. So who is right? That's the whole point. Neither of us has any more ability to say which is more predominant.

Eve-kill top twenty is about the only statiscal tool we have. And some randomization enters the display in that it is open to any organization to sign on and create killboards. Eve-kill does not only record null sec killmails. We don't know the distribution on Drake usage. We cannot say just what percentage of drakes on killmails is coming from null v low sec. And even if we could, and it was mostly catching nullsec use, it would not support your contention that Canes are used more in lowsec. If eve-kill could provde raw data for statistical analysis then one of us might be right, or we could both be partially right, or neither right.

The whole thing is moot though because I'm sure CCP has the ability to break down it's own stats on HML, Drake, and Tengu usage. They can even keep track of total module activations each day. HML II was the most use module by a multiple of the second place module, from a tweet by one of the devs for one day's stats. Do you really doubt that CCP didn't look at the matter more closely than you or I have the ability to do? I think they did look at it closely and came to the conclusion that HML/Drake/Tengu use in pvp and pve in all sectors was out of whack otherwise they would not be engaging in this nerf.

So keep posting your assertions and observations as if they are statements of fact, but you are fooling noone.

The hurricane you see in lowsec are mostly AC fit. There is indeed arty canes, but they are mostly on gate and station to blab frigates.

So you are comparing a drake with long range weapon system (HML) to most ships with short range weapon systems that roam low sec, and that is the evidence of the problem.

As for the range of HML you keep saying they are outdps by turrets when they have no more range, but HML reliably hit up to 70km ; this is the reason why long range fleet aim at 60-70km range with short range weapons. Outside of this range, the drake cannot lock its target... To have a medium turret fit reaching this range, you have to dedicate it to range, and your dps will be half or third of the drake dps. And you are wrong for the range <35km : HML have a comparable dps to short range ammo turret in these range too. Difference is that turrets in these range can't track a ****, and lose a lot of effective dps. And remember you can put rigs to increase your range.

And for T2 fury missiles, I'd like to see some on a kill mail of a non pve drake... But keep talking pve, that's obviously the way to balance things...

And once again, if you need to compare HML to torp or cruise to prove they are not OP, it's an evidence of their OPness.

There was a comparison between all long range weapon stat, without any bonus. Basically, HML have alpha, short range dps at any range, and range comparable to the others. New HML are still better than turrets, only having slightly less dps at short range, traded with damage application, or even dps with fury ; they have now a shorter range, but are way faster, and you still can use rigs to extend it. And they have usable T2 ammo now, completely aleviating the dps and damage application nerf.

It takes exactly 1 mod and 2 rigs to get a drake to hit for over 100km....with over 300dps. There isn't a T1 ship in the game that can come close to that with medium guns.