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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Lili Lu
#4161 - 2012-10-03 21:29:31 UTC
Are people still bitching and moaning in this thread? Every single thing anyone could want to say about the changes has been said already many many times. Give it a rest, ffs. Ugh
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#4162 - 2012-10-03 21:39:01 UTC
I too am suprised the B!tching is still going STRONG.

Also HAMS should do alot better against smaller targets than heavy missiles. Don't know if something has changed on that front because I stop reading about these changes.

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Doc Severide
Doomheim
#4163 - 2012-10-03 22:47:10 UTC
Besides, regardless what anyone in this thread has said, the decision has been made, no one will be heard anyway... Why waste asking opinions when you've already decided?
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#4164 - 2012-10-03 23:07:35 UTC
Doc Severide wrote:
Besides, regardless what anyone in this thread has said, the decision has been made, no one will be heard anyway... Why waste asking opinions when you've already decided?


Well aren't you the cheerful one! Roll

You forgot about the part where Fozzie asked for feedback people gave it to him and than he changed things. There is that.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Hellz Hitman
No-Mercy
Shadow Ultimatum
#4165 - 2012-10-04 01:25:45 UTC
Right now, in a 1v1 fight drakes lose to just about any other BC. And HAM drakes are pitiful. Short range weapon system drake = 700 dps MAX. Short range weapon system cane = 856, Brutix = over 1k with rigs ect. Properly fit Myrm even can stretch 800. So please do on telling me how OP the weapons system is. Tell me how OP my 556 dps HML drake is, against a field of pvpers that Nano everything.

I see people saying the range changes wont be that bad because you can use missile range rigs, any missile rig that increases range effects it for appx 50% of the equivalent turret rig. Due to Missiles drawing their range from 2 stats and Turrets grabbing optimals from 1 and falloff from 1. Missiles are supposed to have a higher range to compensate for the fact that Missiles do not have fall off. And I'm sorry to all you hopefully naive people out there who believe that the missile rigs will compensate for it. It really wont.

And another thing, if I am using a turret ship, which with all turret skills to 5 or 4 I often do, I ensure I have 5-6 different ammo types, allowing me to maximize my dps regardless of my range. Please tell me how you can even compare that to missiles in any way. If I'm in my drake or nighthawk, I know I need to get 3-5 km closer to the target then my optimal. Can you say that as a Turret user? And I know that chances are in that target is moving even remotely fast and I'm in an unimplanted clone I stand NO chance of hitting them for meaningful damage. And the caracal changes wont make a bit of difference. Using it as a sniper ship is still unviable due to the 10-15 second flight time before first damage application at max ranged. Have any of you even used the caracal? I have several hundred kills in a caracal over the years, used to be my ship of choice until I cross trained into other races. By the time your missiles hit the target you are either about to get tackled, or a Talos or Nado already has you locked and is firing.

You want to talk about op? Talk about how a Talos with Void loaded can reach out and touch my drake for full damage at max range (65-75km), while even with his MWD on I'm still not hitting for full damage.

It's about the time to face the facts here. Caldari as a race is broken. The Cerberus, which has barely better stats then a caracal, but costs 100m+ more is broken. The Nighthawk, which is barely better then the tengu, or worse in some situations is broken. The Eagle? The Moa? Broken. After these changes the Ferox, yes, little 650 dps max Ferox is going to be the best Caldari ship to use in pvp. For those saying the Raven, you've never flown a Raven have you? Its not a Minnie bs, its quite slow, and once you switch out a mid for a target painter you tank less then all equivocal Bs's. Sure awesome dps with torps, but have you tried to keep up and hit a target. This isn't a turret based ship where you have fall off to rely on to at least ensure damage projection, and you dont have the drone bay of most turret based ships, so your damage really is the lowest of low.

And then should you try to leave the fight well, not too much of a point there, you wont get away. Unlike large rails or blasters or arties, or autos, or lasers, you cant hit a frig with a torp, nor a cruise for good damage. With a blaster, you can get one good hit off and BAM frig dead and you're gone. Try doing this with a Raven. You get one AMAZING hit off for.... 20 dmg. Meaning you still have a full 30 some odd shots to remove shield and armor, of course assuming that the frig hasn't regen'd it by now.

My point is simply, you can't "Balance" missiles by comparing them to drastically different weapons systems. Missiles had slightly better damage to equate for the fact that your shots take for ever to hit and that you will be wasting ammo with every 5-6 shot if a target dies.

Do the math, research it. Use the ships in game.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4166 - 2012-10-04 01:50:32 UTC
Hellz Hitman wrote:
Right now, in a 1v1 fight drakes lose to just about any other BC. And HAM drakes are pitiful. Short range weapon system drake = 700 dps MAX. Short range weapon system cane = 856, Brutix = over 1k with rigs ect. Properly fit Myrm even can stretch 800. So please do on telling me how OP the weapons system is. Tell me how OP my 556 dps HML drake is, against a field of pvpers that Nano everything.
Either your issue is HAM performance, which is getting buffed, or you are comparing HML's to short range weapons again, which is flawed. Possibly both.
Hellz Hitman wrote:

I see people saying the range changes wont be that bad because you can use missile range rigs, any missile rig that increases range effects it for appx 50% of the equivalent turret rig. Due to Missiles drawing their range from 2 stats and Turrets grabbing optimals from 1 and falloff from 1. Missiles are supposed to have a higher range to compensate for the fact that Missiles do not have fall off. And I'm sorry to all you hopefully naive people out there who believe that the missile rigs will compensate for it. It really wont.

This is untrue. Missile range augmentation by one stat does more than turret range augmentation by just falloff or optimal. A missile flight speed OR flight time increase does for missiles what a pair of bonuses of the same factor, one to optimal AND a second to falloff, does for turrets. TC/TE changes would have helped give even more options.
Hellz Hitman wrote:
You want to talk about op? Talk about how a Talos with Void loaded can reach out and touch my drake for full damage at max range (65-75km), while even with his MWD on I'm still not hitting for full damage.
I'd like to know how that would work. At 65-75km you are deep into falloff and loosing damage. The ship can be a threat no doubt, but how it would be doing full damage is something I'm not aware of.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#4167 - 2012-10-04 02:19:00 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Hellz Hitman wrote:
You want to talk about op? Talk about how a Talos with Void loaded can reach out and touch my drake for full damage at max range (65-75km), while even with his MWD on I'm still not hitting for full damage.
I'd like to know how that would work. At 65-75km you are deep into falloff and loosing damage. The ship can be a threat no doubt, but how it would be doing full damage is something I'm not aware of.


A talos with void does not come close to doing even falloff damage to 65 km

Hellz Hitman is just being unbelievably bad.



EDIT: The talos and the other tier3's are kinda stupid though.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Hellz Hitman
No-Mercy
Shadow Ultimatum
#4168 - 2012-10-04 02:19:10 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Hellz Hitman wrote:
Right now, in a 1v1 fight drakes lose to just about any other BC. And HAM drakes are pitiful. Short range weapon system drake = 700 dps MAX. Short range weapon system cane = 856, Brutix = over 1k with rigs ect. Properly fit Myrm even can stretch 800. So please do on telling me how OP the weapons system is. Tell me how OP my 556 dps HML drake is, against a field of pvpers that Nano everything.
Either your issue is HAM performance, which is getting buffed, or you are comparing HML's to short range weapons again, which is flawed. Possibly both.
Hellz Hitman wrote:

I see people saying the range changes wont be that bad because you can use missile range rigs, any missile rig that increases range effects it for appx 50% of the equivalent turret rig. Due to Missiles drawing their range from 2 stats and Turrets grabbing optimals from 1 and falloff from 1. Missiles are supposed to have a higher range to compensate for the fact that Missiles do not have fall off. And I'm sorry to all you hopefully naive people out there who believe that the missile rigs will compensate for it. It really wont.

This is untrue. Missile range augmentation by one stat does more than turret range augmentation by just falloff or optimal. A missile flight speed OR flight time increase does for missiles what a pair of bonuses of the same factor, one to optimal AND a second to falloff, does for turrets. TC/TE changes would have helped give even more options.
Hellz Hitman wrote:
You want to talk about op? Talk about how a Talos with Void loaded can reach out and touch my drake for full damage at max range (65-75km), while even with his MWD on I'm still not hitting for full damage.
I'd like to know how that would work. At 65-75km you are deep into falloff and loosing damage. The ship can be a threat no doubt, but how it would be doing full damage is something I'm not aware of.


The HAM Performance buff is still not going to bring it on par with weapons systems of the same type. Turret based weapon systems have the option of switching ammo to increase their range and maintain dps even at extreme ranges. Missiles really don't.

The HAM worthlessness, is a main reason why people use HML's as short range weapons systems. So I personally believe its worth a comparison, especially in the light of the nerfs which will be changing HMLs into a short to mid range weapon. Well that is if you want to do any dps at all.

I would also like to know why a Talos can hit me that hard from that much range. But it happens more often that not, he might miss one shot, or two if I'm lucky and attempting to keep transversal up. Talos and tornados are the new flavor of the month right now.

We had three drakes on a gate vs a solitary talos 68 km out. This talos was able to hit us with neutron blasters at that range for hits breaking 600 -800 dmg while our missiles barely scratched him for 100-200.

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#4169 - 2012-10-04 02:23:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Garviel Tarrant
Hellz Hitman wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Hellz Hitman wrote:
Right now, in a 1v1 fight drakes lose to just about any other BC. And HAM drakes are pitiful. Short range weapon system drake = 700 dps MAX. Short range weapon system cane = 856, Brutix = over 1k with rigs ect. Properly fit Myrm even can stretch 800. So please do on telling me how OP the weapons system is. Tell me how OP my 556 dps HML drake is, against a field of pvpers that Nano everything.
Either your issue is HAM performance, which is getting buffed, or you are comparing HML's to short range weapons again, which is flawed. Possibly both.
Hellz Hitman wrote:

I see people saying the range changes wont be that bad because you can use missile range rigs, any missile rig that increases range effects it for appx 50% of the equivalent turret rig. Due to Missiles drawing their range from 2 stats and Turrets grabbing optimals from 1 and falloff from 1. Missiles are supposed to have a higher range to compensate for the fact that Missiles do not have fall off. And I'm sorry to all you hopefully naive people out there who believe that the missile rigs will compensate for it. It really wont.

This is untrue. Missile range augmentation by one stat does more than turret range augmentation by just falloff or optimal. A missile flight speed OR flight time increase does for missiles what a pair of bonuses of the same factor, one to optimal AND a second to falloff, does for turrets. TC/TE changes would have helped give even more options.
Hellz Hitman wrote:
You want to talk about op? Talk about how a Talos with Void loaded can reach out and touch my drake for full damage at max range (65-75km), while even with his MWD on I'm still not hitting for full damage.
I'd like to know how that would work. At 65-75km you are deep into falloff and loosing damage. The ship can be a threat no doubt, but how it would be doing full damage is something I'm not aware of.


The HAM Performance buff is still not going to bring it on par with weapons systems of the same type. Turret based weapon systems have the option of switching ammo to increase their range and maintain dps even at extreme ranges. Missiles really don't.

The HAM worthlessness, is a main reason why people use HML's as short range weapons systems. So I personally believe its worth a comparison, especially in the light of the nerfs which will be changing HMLs into a short to mid range weapon. Well that is if you want to do any dps at all.

I would also like to know why a Talos can hit me that hard from that much range. But it happens more often that not, he might miss one shot, or two if I'm lucky and attempting to keep transversal up. Talos and tornados are the new flavor of the month right now.

We had three drakes on a gate vs a solitary talos 68 km out. This talos was able to hit us with neutron blasters at that range for hits breaking 600 -800 dmg while our missiles barely scratched him for 100-200.




Keeping transveral up.. at 65km.. With an MWD... You do realize that doesn't work right?


Also a talos does just about 170 dps at 65km with null loaded and has around 26k ehp (Also worth noting that he is using LARGE guns, not a medium weapon system like the HML)

If you couldn't kill it with 3 hml drakes its because you are unbelievably bad.


EDIT: Also to your stupid rant about ammo types... See the t2 missile changes.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Akili Unik
Caldari Core Mining Inc.
#4170 - 2012-10-04 02:25:47 UTC
So what will happen to the rigs we've applied to those mining frigates?
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#4171 - 2012-10-04 02:31:06 UTC
Akili Unik wrote:
So what will happen to the rigs we've applied to those mining frigates?



this isn't the thread you're looking for..


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=146069 <--



Also recompense for rigs on t1 frigs.. lol

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Hellz Hitman
No-Mercy
Shadow Ultimatum
#4172 - 2012-10-04 02:36:26 UTC

Keeping transveral up.. at 65km.. With an MWD... You do realize that doesn't work right?


Also a talos does just about 170 dps at 65km with null loaded and has around 26k ehp (Also worth noting that he is using LARGE guns, not a medium weapon system like the HML)

If you couldn't kill it with 3 hml drakes its because you are unbelievably bad.


EDIT: Also to your stupid rant about ammo types... See the t2 missile changes.[/quote] The T2 missile changes are unbelieveably bad. Not one of them really balances the system. So quit fail trolling. And If we caught it I don't doubt we could have killed it. Issue remains that the dps that it was able to output with a short range weapon system was larger then the dps we could output with missiles. Not whether we killed it or not.

I can also bring in examples of Nados, Talos, Pests, even brutix's insta popping frigates from extreme ranges. Ranges outside their optimal but at least unlike missiles they still had a chance to hit,.

And as for the transversal question, yes that was quite the point there. Glad you wrapped your head around it.
Akili Unik
Caldari Core Mining Inc.
#4173 - 2012-10-04 02:47:45 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Akili Unik wrote:
So what will happen to the rigs we've applied to those mining frigates?



this isn't the thread you're looking for..


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=146069 <--



Also recompense for rigs on t1 frigs.. lol



This thread talks about the new patch. On the new patch some frigates and in my case the bantam are receiving some changes.
I have fitted that bantam with 3 x cargo rigs II, lol crazy but yes. Now what will happen to those rigs since theyll become obsolete after the frigate changes role to logistic. Will I be stuck with useless expensive rigs on a logistic frig or will CCP "recompense" as you said?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4174 - 2012-10-04 02:59:56 UTC
Akili Unik wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Akili Unik wrote:
So what will happen to the rigs we've applied to those mining frigates?



this isn't the thread you're looking for..


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=146069 <--



Also recompense for rigs on t1 frigs.. lol



This thread talks about the new patch. On the new patch some frigates and in my case the bantam are receiving some changes.
I have fitted that bantam with 3 x cargo rigs II, lol crazy but yes. Now what will happen to those rigs since theyll become obsolete after the frigate changes role to logistic. Will I be stuck with useless expensive rigs on a logistic frig or will CCP "recompense" as you said?

I really wanted to indulge my inner smartass but I'm going to refrain. To answer your question: yes, you are stuck with those rigs and no compensation if their treatment of the even more expensive medium T2 rigs on exhumers is any indication when those were changed.

Looking forward to the BS re-balance and the possibility of my fits becoming irrelevant or needing new ships altogether.
IDGAD
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4175 - 2012-10-04 03:25:20 UTC
This has most likely been said a million times already but......

If you take heavy missiles down to the range, and damage of other long range medium guns, they will become the worst weapon of that class hands down (even with moderate bonuses). The core problem with missiles is actually their very existence. The idea of missiles is that you got increased range, and damage for the annoyances of their difficulty in hitting smaller targets that guns could, and of course THE TIME IT TAKES TO HIT . The largest factor in the new nerfed missiles will be that they will be like the others, but have nothing but major downfalls like damage infliction delays due to travel time.
LtTrog
Perkone
Caldari State
#4176 - 2012-10-04 03:52:10 UTC
IDGAD wrote:
This has most likely been said a million times already but......

If you take heavy missiles down to the range, and damage of other long range medium guns, they will become the worst weapon of that class hands down (even with moderate bonuses). The core problem with missiles is actually their very existence. The idea of missiles is that you got increased range, and damage for the annoyances of their difficulty in hitting smaller targets that guns could, and of course THE TIME IT TAKES TO HIT . The largest factor in the new nerfed missiles will be that they will be like the others, but have nothing but major downfalls like damage infliction delays due to travel time.


A good point and Ill quote it in the hope that if its said often enough it will be herd.

Please let missiles have one clear advantage over other systems to balance flight time and dont tell me damage selection as that is only of any use in pve and on ships that dont favour one damage type.

(would be nice to see those bonuses change to omni, hell even RoF would be ok but makes counting vollies harder and running costs higher)

At this point I dont care what that advantage is but please let it have one

I would prefer dps but range would be ok

massive alpha would be another option
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#4177 - 2012-10-04 03:58:37 UTC
^ Would you be satisfied with missiles being better then blasters or rail guns? Or are you talking about a real weapon system?

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
LtTrog
Perkone
Caldari State
#4178 - 2012-10-04 04:19:49 UTC
rodyas wrote:
^ Would you be satisfied with missiles being better then blasters or rail guns? Or are you talking about a real weapon system?



well my idea of balance would be one weapon system be it lasors hybrids missiles or whatever has one clear advantage and disadvantage in each size small/med/large/cap these dont need to be unified across the whole system but need to be there.

e.g. lasors - cap hungry + rapid ammo selection/ low ammo costs
missiles - flight time ? after changes I dont know

(and dont give me no tracking as the exp velocity/size more than compensates for that)


I dont want better than anything. I want best for X worst for Y for every system.
For example; I want best alpha for medium weapons, ah ok that would be weapon system A
I want best damage application in large weapons, ok you should use weapon system B
LtTrog
Perkone
Caldari State
#4179 - 2012-10-04 04:21:08 UTC
What can any honestly say missiles are best for in any size after the proposed changes?
Psycros
Evasive Finance
#4180 - 2012-10-04 04:37:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Psycros
Talk about adding insult to injury. For years we begged the devs to slightly nerf Caldari and boost the other races to make something besides a Drake or Raven hull worth using in most L3/L4 missions (and in many cases the only ships capable of completing them). As everyone knows, the requests for rebalancing were ignored. All the missioners finally sucked it up and put the bulk of their weapon SP towards missiles. When the Tengu was introduced we were glad we had, because once again Caldari was the only ship in the class worth using. Those who hadn't maxed out HMs already did so with a shrug of resignation: CCP loves Caldari and that's all there is to it. But now...we get this brilliant adjustment. Does it finally make anything but Caldari worth using in L3s and 4s? Nope! it just slows down your missions even MORE, as if they didn't take long enough already. That means less ISK/hr which means that missioners are being penalized for having made the only viable choice they had. Once again CCP proves its unwillingness to address the core imbalances between the races of EVE. Bear in mind I've only been talking about missions thus far: Caldari has the advantage in a number of PvP situations as well. The huge effective range of missiles is, of course, the main factor - but the problem is not primarily missile range, its the fact that missiles have a far higher chance of actually doing damage than any other weapon. Its the fact they can't be neuted out of operation, that they don't require sacrificing shield tank for DPS, the fact they can do every kind of damage, are effective at nearly any range, etc ad infinitum. As in RL, missiles in EVE simply outclass every other long-range weapon system. Add to this inequity the superiority of Caldari shield tanking and the problem becomes even more glaring. No, I'm not saying anything that hasn't been said a thousand times before, but I think that too many of us have simply given up on CCP ever caring. Maybe that can change, maybe it can't, but I do know this much - if HMs are nerfed, EVE no longer becomes worth playing to me. Missions are too big of a time sink as is...if I'm suddenly making 20-35% less ISK/hr and not getting the SP back that all of us were forced to invest into one type of combat, I'm done waiting for CCP to get its act together. I'll save my money for the inevitable "EVE killer" that gets Kickstarted.

(Also: regarding possibility of trading resist bonuses for missile velocity bonus..I have always hated missile velocity bonus for a number of reasons. First off, it makes absolutely no sense - how is a ship going to grant a flight speed bonus to a self-contained weapon..is there a drone strapping little boosters to each missile right before its launched?? This mechanic should be totally removed from EVE. Secondly, it would probably just make the Drake less effective at hitting frigs, which is hardly a benefit in L3 missions. Pretty sure CCP already scrapped the idea for these kinds of tradeoffs anyway.)