These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Lili Lu
#4041 - 2012-10-02 18:03:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
OT Smithers wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:
OT Smithers wrote:
THIS is CCP's idea of balance. Take the worse race, ships, and weapons in the game -- the ones almost no one wastes their time using today -- and break them further. And at the same time BUFF the best ships and races in the game so that they hold an even greater advantage.

So much wrong with your analysis, but I'm just gonna quote this last bit for another chuckle.

Look if you are so unhappy with Caldari traits just crosstrain to what do you call it, oh yeah, Winmatar. Then you can omgwtfpwn everything in your 425ac dual medium neut speedracer . . .er . . . oh fudge.P


I don't fly Caldari Lili.

I am one of the folks CCP apparenlty feels needs their help against the scary Drake bullies. But unlike you, apparently, I have never had any problems with Drake pilots picking on me. The Drake is a fine ship, and it is situationally the best BC, but I have found that the speed and versatility of the Hurricane is a better fit for me and more often useful. Looking at your killboard I can see you spend a great deal of time flying with some mega blobs. Perhaps you should broaden your horizons a bit, leave your blob corp and try something else. You will probably discover that when the choice of ship is yours rather than dictated by some mega-fleet doctrine, and the consequences matter because no one is handing out free ships, that suddenly the Drake doesn't look all that special or overpowered after all.

Pretty much every pirate in the game can fly any BC he wants. Why aren't they choosing the overpowered Drake?

Perhaps, before you blather on about nerfs, you should discover the answer for yourself.

Yeah Smithers, Lili fles minmatar and amarr. I have other mains. One flies gallente and minmatar. And guess what, the other two fly Caldari and Gallente. And they didn't all go out to 0.0, and instead are in lowsec.

Regardless, the amount of butthurt you post here about Drakes has me not believing you don't have another character that is still specced only in Drakes. And, I looked you up. Your most active month had 46 kills with Canes and 15 with Drakes, so even there you can't say "I don't fly Caldari" . .

Anyway, glad to see that you in fact did cross train. Smile But you really need to let go of your original identification with the Drake. For being a Cane pilot it amazes me that you are not bitching instead about the direct Cane nerf. Your exagerrated and inacurate ("Take the worse race, ships, and weapons in the game -- the ones almost no one wastes their time using today ", really? Rollabout HMLs and Drakes?, which have been topping eve-kill for a couple or more years now) posting about Drakes and missiles doesn't serve anyone.Smile

edit - or maybe it's because you still do all your pve in drakes and tengus and can't figure out how to make a minmatar ship work in pve. I don't know what it is but you seem incredibly angry over this nerf that anyone with open eyes saw coming (and long overdue).

edit 2 - also btw, note that my mains all have two races that can swing either armor or shield. I don't think training two shield centric or two armor centric races is the greatest idea. It reduces your options if your corp or alliance or FC calls for a differntly tanked fleet spec. In that regard Gallente and Amarr, or Caldari and Minmatar are not the best combos. And those combos don't open up any pirate faction ships to a character. Just a suggestion for any new players reading this thread.Smile
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4042 - 2012-10-02 18:04:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
OT Smithers wrote:
]lol - drake with ~30 km range on t2 missiles ... yeah right ;) there will be plenty unsubs on winter ;) great job ccp ! ;)


Compared to T2 missile that NO ONE uses now?

OT Smithers wrote:

This would be interesting if the ships were forced to remain motionless in this position. This, however, is not the case. That Drake, at the edge of long point range, cannot kill that Hurricane unless the cane pilot decides that this is the perfect time to go afk. I will assume you know the reason why and move on.


If you have the skills (and NONE of you seem to train past drake so you should) a Drake loses 9 NINE DPS to a hurricane with his MWD on. They aren't dramiel fast.

OT Smithers wrote:

A ship's "power" is relative, and certainly not confined to the narrow parameters of dps and tank. Combat in eve is only rarely a one on one proposition where two space knights throw down their guantlets and meet at the sun for glorious honorable combat. Instead it's a chaotic mess of ship swapping and warping and gathering up more people to swarm your enemies. And in this chaos one weapon stands out above all others:

Speed.


So you are saying you never have tacklers?

OT Smithers wrote:

Minmatar ships do not dominate PvP because they have the best tanks. Nor do they dominate because they do the best DPS. They dominate because they are able to better dictate the terms of the engagement, and often whether or not any engagement will take place at all. Add to this the noteworthy Minmatar versatility and you have a selection of ships any pilot would be well off choosing. It is for this reason that Canes outnumber Drakes by two or three to one in every low sec fleet. Speed is life.


Billsh1t, and look though my killboard, I've done low-sec.


OT Smithers wrote:

For the Caldari however, none of this is the case. Their ships are slow, they typically have lower DPS weapons, fewer drones, few (if any) utility high slots, and restrictive fitting slot selections that dictate and restrict how a ship can be assembled. Further, as of today they only have a single T1 or T2 missile hull worth fitting -- the Drake. Every other ship in their lineup is broken. Actually, not to put to fine a point on it, with the exception of frigates every of CLASS of Caldari ship is broken. If you want to fly a BS you have to fly another race. If you want to fly an HAC you have to fly another race. If you want to fly a cruiser, you have to fly another race. If you want to fly a desxtroyer, the same applies. If you fly Caldari you have one ship.

And with this winter expansion this will not really change. The Caldari still will not have a missile cruiser worth flying, and it remains to be seen if CCP will adjustr the Moa to be comparable and competetive. They still will not have an HAC, they will not have a BS, they will not have a navy cruiser or faction cruiser. They will have their newly nerfed Drake, and after this expansion, a new missile destroyer. Every other missile ship in the game, the most broken selection of ships in the game, will become even worse -- not only because CCP has decided to curb stomp Caldari pilots yet again, but because they are buffing everyone else at the same time.

THIS is CCP's idea of balance. Take the worse race, ships, and weapons in the game -- the ones almost no one wastes their time using today -- and break them further. And at the same time BUFF the best ships and races in the game so that they hold an even greater advantage.




Random whining with little basis in fact.

Look at my killboard right now, most of my recent kills are caldari blobs, or screwing around on the Keberz gate ....in *gasp* a drake and doing top DPS amoung 9 other ships.

....oh and Rokh is a pretty brutal fleet ship
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4043 - 2012-10-02 18:18:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Noemi Nagano
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:


you are seriously complaining about a pirate faction battleship beeing more efficient at doing missions intented for battleships (or maybe groups of smaller ships) than a cruiser hull?
how can you not recognize how very wrong that is?



You know why people compare those ships in missions? Because that cruiserhull is the best Caldari has for missions. Now you really should be the one to be amazed. We have not a single BS or Marauder, or Command Ship which is able to perform better in missions than this cruiser hull, the Tengu. And even the Tengu doesnt come close to winmatar Vargur Opness and Machariel. Its not so much behind vs. Guristas, Serpentis and EoM. But for all others it falls back a lot more.

Do you still wonder we do care about the nerfs for it, well knowing we have nothing as a viable alternative atm?

There is no doubt about those facts:

1) no other large or medium missile system is atm working in PvP (at all!) and in PvE (in terms of being on par) for Caldari ships except HML.

2) no other tech 1 missile-hull is really working atm except the Drake (above frig size, ofc).

3) the only BS which can use Torps and is half good is Winmatar.

Fix those issues, then fix what you think is OP with Caldari, and no one will complain.

I wrote that a few pages before, and again did not get answers (like normally, when it comes down to how it really is ;) ):

I dont object to the nerf of Drakes, Tengus and HMLs per se. If you feel like they are so much out of line = better than their counterparts, then pls go on. But in the same time you simply HAVE TO nerf all those things of all other races too which are atm out of line = better than their counterparts:

speed for Winmatar generally, L SR&LR Projectiles and Lasers, medium SR Projectile. If 11 of 20 ships in top 20 are Winmatar that gives a clear picture to me.

There cant be balance if you ignore all those OP ships of one race and just look for the single OP ship of another race ... but like I said before: those who dont want to see will be ignoring facts also now. I just hope there are enough who see the truth and continue to spread it. ´nuff said.
Kesthely
Mestana
#4044 - 2012-10-02 18:22:41 UTC
Dear Fozzie:

Earlier you posted that the main reason to change HML's was to uniform it into a SOLID base platform on wich the other ships would be able to be redesigned. Without a good weaponsplatform designing a ship would be impossible. I agree completly.

However the HML missile in all its variants, as well as the Javelin and Rage torpedo do not look like a solid platform.

I'll try to explain my concerns, starting with the easiest:

Javelin and Rage Torpedo:
While the Javelin and Rage Rocket and Heavy Assault Missiles have the same speed, this is not the case for the Torpedo. Hence the effectiveness of range modification bonuses on ships and or modules makes these weapon platforms behave strangely. In my opinion the Javelin Torpedo should get the same missile speed as the Rocket and Heavy Assault Missile: 3375 m/s. The Rage torpedo should get the same speed as their respective smaller sizes: 1875 m/s.
This change is nessicary so any future TE, TD, TC's modules will affect all ships short range missile platforms in the same percentages.

Heavy Missiles

Speed:
As in the above paragraph the heavy missile has a different speed then the light missile and cruise missiles. Again for future range modification bonuses / modules this should be the same speed as there respective counterparts.
Without these changes you'll see that the TE, TD, TC's behave differently on different weapon systems. (in some configurations they'll be more effective, others less.)

This makes it extremly hard to balance ships.

Explosion Radius
Another concern is the explosion radius. With these new changes, a basic heavy missile will not be able to do full damage against a basic cruiser. While weapon and ship are the same size. Every other medium weapon system has this ratio to 1 to 1. (In effect a heavy missile will do only 89% of the damage compared to a heavy assault missile against a stationary target in range) If you extrapolate this with skills, fits, and ship bonuses the damage changes against stationary targets will be even greater. (not to mention the effective damage against moveing targets)

Also this explosion radius nerf actually means the effective damage will be cut by 21% against a stationary target, and even more against a moveing one!

Not everything is bad!
I would like to thank you though for the spreadsheet that gives us real values to theorycraft with. This is helpfull to be able to visualize what the changes will entail.

Conclusion
Unfortunatly i'd rather have the Missile changes v 1.0 then the v 2.0 due to the above reasons, and due to the fact that without TE's and TC's in winter release, a few of the other ships rebalancing is negated due to the fact that those are calculated in there earlier redesign proces. (If not then they should of had!)

PS: Sneaky to try to put in an even bigger damage nerf by hideing it in an explosion radius penalty!
OlRotGut
#4045 - 2012-10-02 18:32:53 UTC
Kesthely wrote:
Dear Fozzie:

Earlier you posted that the main reason to change HML's was to uniform it into a SOLID base platform on wich the other ships would be able to be redesigned. Without a good weaponsplatform designing a ship would be impossible. I agree completly.

However the HML missile in all its variants, as well as the Javelin and Rage torpedo do not look like a solid platform.

I'll try to explain my concerns, starting with the easiest:

Javelin and Rage Torpedo:
While the Javelin and Rage Rocket and Heavy Assault Missiles have the same speed, this is not the case for the Torpedo. Hence the effectiveness of range modification bonuses on ships and or modules makes these weapon platforms behave strangely. In my opinion the Javelin Torpedo should get the same missile speed as the Rocket and Heavy Assault Missile: 3375 m/s. The Rage torpedo should get the same speed as their respective smaller sizes: 1875 m/s.
This change is nessicary so any future TE, TD, TC's modules will affect all ships short range missile platforms in the same percentages.

Heavy Missiles

Speed:
As in the above paragraph the heavy missile has a different speed then the light missile and cruise missiles. Again for future range modification bonuses / modules this should be the same speed as there respective counterparts.
Without these changes you'll see that the TE, TD, TC's behave differently on different weapon systems. (in some configurations they'll be more effective, others less.)

This makes it extremly hard to balance ships.

Explosion Radius
Another concern is the explosion radius. With these new changes, a basic heavy missile will not be able to do full damage against a basic cruiser. While weapon and ship are the same size. Every other medium weapon system has this ratio to 1 to 1. (In effect a heavy missile will do only 89% of the damage compared to a heavy assault missile against a stationary target in range) If you extrapolate this with skills, fits, and ship bonuses the damage changes against stationary targets will be even greater. (not to mention the effective damage against moveing targets)

Also this explosion radius nerf actually means the effective damage will be cut by 21% against a stationary target, and even more against a moveing one!

Not everything is bad!
I would like to thank you though for the spreadsheet that gives us real values to theorycraft with. This is helpfull to be able to visualize what the changes will entail.

Conclusion
Unfortunatly i'd rather have the Missile changes v 1.0 then the v 2.0 due to the above reasons, and due to the fact that without TE's and TC's in winter release, a few of the other ships rebalancing is negated due to the fact that those are calculated in there earlier redesign proces. (If not then they should of had!)

PS: Sneaky to try to put in an even bigger damage nerf by hideing it in an explosion radius penalty!


The explosion radius nerf definitely makes a target painter a much more viable mod now.

I like the new changes; especially the guided missile precision skill affecting all subcap missiles. HAMS become really good.

If you wanna hit cruisers with HML's ; use precisions ya?
Lili Lu
#4046 - 2012-10-02 18:48:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:


you are seriously complaining about a pirate faction battleship beeing more efficient at doing missions intented for battleships (or maybe groups of smaller ships) than a cruiser hull?
how can you not recognize how very wrong that is?



You know why people compare those ships in missions? Because that cruiserhull is the best Caldari has for missions. Now you really should be the one to be amazed. We have not a single BS or Marauder, or Command Ship which is able to perform better in missions than this cruiser hull, the Tengu. And even the Tengu doesnt come close to winmatar Vargur Opness and Machariel. Its not so much behind vs. Guristas, Serpentis and EoM. But for all others it falls back a lot more.

Do you still wonder we do care about the nerfs for it, well knowing we have nothing as a viable alternative atm?

There is no doubt about those facts:

1) no other large or medium missile system is atm working in PvP (at all!) and in PvE (in terms of being on par) for Caldari ships except HML.

2) no other tech 1 missile-hull is really working atm except the Drake (above frig size, ofc).

3) the only BS which can use Torps and is half good is Winmatar.

Fix those issues, then fix what you think is OP with Caldari, and no one will complain.

I wrote that a few pages before, and again did not get answers (like normally, when it comes down to how it really is ;) ):

I dont object to the nerf of Drakes, Tengus and HMLs per se. If you feel like they are so much out of line = better than their counterparts, then pls go on. But in the same time you simply HAVE TO nerf all those things of all other races too which are atm out of line = better than their counterparts:

speed for Winmatar generally, L SR&LR Projectiles and Lasers, medium SR Projectile. If 11 of 20 ships in top 20 are Winmatar that gives a clear picture to me.

There cant be balance if you ignore all those OP ships of one race and just look for the single OP ship of another race ... but like I said before: those who dont want to see will be ignoring facts also now. I just hope there are enough who see the truth and continue to spread it. ´nuff said.

That that cruiser hull was best for missions was simply evidence of the weapon system or the subsystem or a combo of both being op. Prior to the Tengu the most ubiquitous pve ship was the Raven and of course the Navy Raven. It appears some of you folks that have restricted yourselves to flying only one race, Caldari, will have to rediscover the Raven kind and Navy Scorp and Golem for your missioning. Unfortunately for you you will have to wait now for the TC and TE effect on missiles. Toning the falloff benefits back a little might be enough to make those two rather expensive ships less dominant or appearing to be.

As for the Vargur and Machariel I think the problem is less the ACs and more the overdone buff that occured on TCs and TEs dominant (because I do not necessarily agree with you that they are all you say anyway). I think that reduction in TC and TE effects combined with a reduction in the base strength of TDs starts to set the table for the reintroduction of the TC and TE effects on missiles that is currently delayed. Well that and some experience with the strength of the ship/role bonuses on the new missile destroyers which pose a real danger the viability of any frig in the game.

Medium rails are seeing use in pvp on Nagas. And with the ASB Feroxes are being fielded again. Also, Rokhs are getting use. So it is not true that only the HML Drake is working for Caldari in pvp. And I think the worry that Drakes will disappear is overblown. They may disappear as a 0.0 blob fleet comp, but in lowsec and smaller gang fighting they will still have value after this nerf.

As for your contention concerning out of line pirate BSs and Maruders that unfortunately is the by product of the step by step approach to rebalancing. I was calling for a speed up on it before all this simply because I saw nothing happening with Drakes and Tengus and their continued massive dominance in numbers for pvp and pve. I doubt it was my bitching for an interim fix to the Drake problem that led to this nerf as much as it was, as Fozzie said, they realized they couldn't complete Cruiser rebalncing unless they addressed the medium weapon imbalances first. I'm just happy that it worked out that an interim nerf is hitting the Drakes and Tengus before they actually get to rebalncing those ship classes.

As for your citation to eve-kill top 20 and the heavy minmatar representation, welcome to the club. It's about the only statistical tool we have for citing imblances other than out own anecdotal observations and opinions. There is a qualitative difference between the Minmatar and the Caldari representation in that the Minmatar is more diverse and less concentrated. Wheras the Caldari representation on that table was heavily concentrated at the top with Drakes in top position and Tengus in 2nd or 3rd. That will change.

And already we are seing the effect of the new tech II 1600 plates helping to revive amor usage, at least with Zealots. Meanwhile the heavy Minmatar numbers along with the continuing Caldari strength is due to the new ASBs and present mechanics favoring kiting, range, and speed. Both races have advantages in that regard. Maybe the new plates and an improved adaptive armor hardener can dent that kiting dominance. In any case, the minmatar representation is probably due to falloff stats on TEs and the kiting mechanic advantages and less to ACs per se being op.
Sigras
Conglomo
#4047 - 2012-10-02 19:01:21 UTC
Signal11th wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Yank Sin wrote:
To be blunt I still see my Tengu that I spent for ever to train for turning to a wimpy shadow of its former glory. The good old days of target locking and killing rats at over 100km will be a fond memory of the past. Would you tell a great white shark to take out its teeth because it kills to much? No you would not. You would sit back and watch a killing machine at work.

so youre idea is to . . . leave the Tengu totally overpowered?

You realize that after the change, youll be able to put one (1) range rig in and achieve > 100 km range plus your missiles will now be moving faster meaning less wasted ammo volleys; look what you have to do to the loki, proteus or legion to get them to go 100 km . . . and they do less damage there too . . .

yes, the tengu is getting a nerf because thats exactly what they needed.



Yes and you prove my point from many earlier pages, it's the tengu that needs the nerf not the weapon platform.
When anyone mentions the problems its always the ships they mention first not the missles.

As I said before in another post which you apparently did not read, the tengu is just the best platform for the most powerful weapon system.

The nighthawk isnt actually that far behind the tengu, and actually in some cases, it might be a little better. If they nerfed the drake/tengu, people would just use the nighthawk because its the next best ship to slap the over powered weapon system on.

Signal11th wrote:
Great nerf the range all they want I rarely have to hit out at anything over 50k anyway. Nerf the tengu then everyone will fly Vagur, Vindi,Mach or whatever the flavour of the month is then guess what because everyone is using them they get nerfed and the continual downward spiral of "being the same" contiunes.

How does that make everything the same? Everything is the same right now because everyone just flies the two best ships carrying the OP weapon system.

This is adding diversity to the game not making everything the same.

Signal11th wrote:
This game needs more content not this continual tinkering that just pisses more people off than it actually pleases.

This shows that you know nothing about game design.

MMOs hinge on their developers constantly tinkering with things to keep things from getting stale, or to keep one thing from being totally overpowered and everyone using that one thing.
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
#4048 - 2012-10-02 19:06:02 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:


you are seriously complaining about a pirate faction battleship beeing more efficient at doing missions intented for battleships (or maybe groups of smaller ships) than a cruiser hull?
how can you not recognize how very wrong that is?



You know why people compare those ships in missions? Because that cruiserhull is the best Caldari has for missions. Now you really should be the one to be amazed. We have not a single BS or Marauder, or Command Ship which is able to perform better in missions than this cruiser hull, the Tengu. And even the Tengu doesnt come close to winmatar Vargur Opness and Machariel. Its not so much behind vs. Guristas, Serpentis and EoM. But for all others it falls back a lot more.

Do you still wonder we do care about the nerfs for it, well knowing we have nothing as a viable alternative atm?

There is no doubt about those facts:

1) no other large or medium missile system is atm working in PvP (at all!) and in PvE (in terms of being on par) for Caldari ships except HML.

2) no other tech 1 missile-hull is really working atm except the Drake (above frig size, ofc).

3) the only BS which can use Torps and is half good is Winmatar.

Fix those issues, then fix what you think is OP with Caldari, and no one will complain.

I wrote that a few pages before, and again did not get answers (like normally, when it comes down to how it really is ;) ):

I dont object to the nerf of Drakes, Tengus and HMLs per se. If you feel like they are so much out of line = better than their counterparts, then pls go on. But in the same time you simply HAVE TO nerf all those things of all other races too which are atm out of line = better than their counterparts:

speed for Winmatar generally, L SR&LR Projectiles and Lasers, medium SR Projectile. If 11 of 20 ships in top 20 are Winmatar that gives a clear picture to me.

There cant be balance if you ignore all those OP ships of one race and just look for the single OP ship of another race ... but like I said before: those who dont want to see will be ignoring facts also now. I just hope there are enough who see the truth and continue to spread it. ´nuff said.


well before tengu, all were crazy about caldari navy raven. and actually golems. it's quite funny, that most of the people doing pve were flying caldari, even when fotm-lvl4 tengu was not around.
and since you brought the machariel into it. you may have a look at the rattlesnake too, which was quite famous to for missioning, before tengu of corse.

as for "winmatar" t1 battleships, you would be suprised how many more skills (compared to raven or tengu for that matter) are needed to make the typhoon worth while.
maybe its time you tried to do missions ( or pvp) in turret ships. you might get an inside in how it is for people on the other side (and yes i have a caldari char and yes ive done pve with caldari missile boats).


Sigras
Conglomo
#4049 - 2012-10-02 19:16:46 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Sigras wrote:
I accept your premise i reject your conclusion . . .

Your premise is that you should focus on the stuff thats most out of balance first. This is true

Your conclusion is that caldari ships are not as good as minmatar ships in every category and this is simply not true.

Right now the simple fact is that HMLs are the best long range weapon in the game by a wide margin. They have the best range, the best alpha, the best DPS and no cap usage.

So following your premise, they did the right thing and nerfed the HMLs which were most out of balance.


On paper they look like that. IN game though, they are only in one specific PvP area out of line, in null sec blobs. Will explain more to this later.

In PvE they are out of line compared to their peers, but not out of line compared to other high end PvE stuff: the Tengu is not exactly "cheap" PvE ship, so comparing it to best other mission runners is reasonable. It shines in kinetic damage scenarios, everywhere else its a fair bit behind due to the damage bonus. Still its better than Golems and CNRs in most cases. But its noticable worse than Machariels, Paladins, Vargurs and Nightmares, and in all non-kin missions by a bigger margin. My conclusion is: while being a strong PvE system on a Drake and a Tengu, its still not out of line too much since there are better other systems (ship/weapon) around. Which are all non-Caldari except the Mare which has a small Caldari core :)

Thank God CCP isnt stupid enough to balance the game around PvE

Think about it this way; nobody ever uses the heavy interdictors in PvE, does that mean they need a boost?
The Ishtar is by far the best PvE HAC, does that mean it needs a nerf?
No, balancing around PvE is stupid

Sigras wrote:
People will argue that the drake and tengu were the real problems; i submit that if you nerfed those two ships, you would just see a bunch of nighthawks take their place; the drake and tengu are just the most convenient platform to carry the most powerful ranged weapon on.


No, you wouldnt. The NH is broken compared to the Drake - it has not enough PG and the slot layout is also not optimal for a BC/Shieldtank in PvP. Its far more expensive and requires many skills (which is good) and would not replace the Drake in PvP apart from some small gang stuff at all. Nullsec fleets need cheap and easy to train ships.[/quote]
Because nobody ever flies the tengu in PvP?
The nighthawk actually isnt that far behind the Tengu, why? because its the weapon system thats totally OP

Noemi Nagano wrote:
Atm HML dominate in one single aspect: Drake nullsec blobs. This is only happening thanks to doomsday device change, else BC-fleets would be obsolete in null. To get rid of them no nerf for HML or Drakes would be needed, just make CMs and Ravens work for PvP, they should be a natural counter to BCs with high speed, but moon-like sig sizes. Raven fleets with CM would obliterate Drake fleets. They would be a bit more expensive though, and need more skills. And, they would not be BC-sized, but BS, therefor easier to counter for other BS-fleets. I am sure this would bring balance to nullsec, and still not kill balance somewhere else.

wow im assuming youve never been in null sec right? First of all, bringing the AOE DD back would only make the drake more popular because its the cheapest ship that can survive one, and second, people try to counter drakes with battleships all the time, and with turret battleships which you claim are "better" than the raven . . . usually it works out poorly for them.

Noemi Nagano wrote:
With range nerfs for HML this could maybe also achieved, but atm we simply kill HML as a "longrange"system. There is no range bonused low dps ammo for HML, you know ...

Just an FYI, but im sure you know this already, the regular HML missiles go as far as the "range bonused low dps ammo" for the turrets . . . but you knew that already right?

Also lasers and railguns have no ammo that makes them better at hitting small fast targets like missiles do . . . so to each his own.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#4050 - 2012-10-02 19:30:25 UTC
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:
it's quite funny, that most of the people doing pve were flying caldari, even when fotm-lvl4 tengu was not around.



This always makes me laugh high and hard. If you do lvl4's and kill all rats with your Tengu, you're doing it wrong.
Tengu is the MASTER of BLITZ, I guess you don't really understand what this means.

If you want to know what a fotom ship is or what looks like just mission some day with a faction/DED fit Machariel or Nightmare, now those are like "waw" in dps/alpha you murder everything on grid FTL than you will ever be able to do with a 2billion Tengu.
You make me think about someone not having a single idea what he's talking about and just moans about Tengus, T3 boosting, then T3's in general etc etc etc when the problem clearly comes from something else.

Earlier you reffer to Hurricane as bad ship, then Drake as OP. Don't be surprised if people don't take you seriously or think you're trolling.

brb
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#4051 - 2012-10-02 19:52:48 UTC
Fozzie for president!

I'm saddened the DPS isn't being decreased as much as it could have, but range nerf will have a huge impact on the 0.0 Tengu and Drake blobs. ♥

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4052 - 2012-10-02 19:55:23 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:

Medium rails are seeing use in pvp on Nagas..


How so? :)

Lili Lu wrote:

And with the ASB Feroxes are being fielded again. Also, Rokhs are getting use. So it is not true that only the HML Drake is working for Caldari in pvp. And I think the worry that Drakes will disappear is overblown. They may disappear as a 0.0 blob fleet comp, but in lowsec and smaller gang fighting they will still have value after this nerf.


As a shield Prophecy, maybe. But not as damage dealers on more than 15km. Simple as that ...

Lili Lu wrote:

As for your contention concerning out of line pirate BSs and Maruders that unfortunately is the by product of the step by step approach to rebalancing. I was calling for a speed up on it before all this simply because I saw nothing happening with Drakes and Tengus and their continued massive dominance in numbers for pvp and pve. I doubt it was my bitching for an interim fix to the Drake problem that led to this nerf as much as it was, as Fozzie said, they realized they couldn't complete Cruiser rebalncing unless they addressed the medium weapon imbalances first. I'm just happy that it worked out that an interim nerf is hitting the Drakes and Tengus before they actually get to rebalncing those ship classes.

As for your citation to eve-kill top 20 and the heavy minmatar representation, welcome to the club. It's about the only statistical tool we have for citing imblances other than out own anecdotal observations and opinions. There is a qualitative difference between the Minmatar and the Caldari representation in that the Minmatar is more diverse and less concentrated. Wheras the Caldari representation on that table was heavily concentrated at the top with Drakes in top position and Tengus in 2nd or 3rd. That will change.


Tengu is 4th, 2nd is Zealot - that shows how this system works, the big numbers come mostly from nullsec. Has been pointed out how it works. In lowsec you dont see those many Zealots. And also not so many Drakes like you see Canes. Figure why ...

Lili Lu wrote:

And already we are seing the effect of the new tech II 1600 plates helping to revive amor usage, at least with Zealots. Meanwhile the heavy Minmatar numbers along with the continuing Caldari strength is due to the new ASBs and present mechanics favoring kiting, range, and speed. Both races have advantages in that regard. Maybe the new plates and an improved adaptive armor hardener can dent that kiting dominance. In any case, the minmatar representation is probably due to falloff stats on TEs and the kiting mechanic advantages and less to ACs per se being op.


I agree with you on armor tanks have trouble with speed. But Caldari ships (most of them) do too, have no active tanking bonus and no working weapon system (except the turret ones, but those are also far from being top). So right now even those changes will not give anything to Caldari for combat PvP. Again, how can you call this balancing?
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4053 - 2012-10-02 20:01:47 UTC
Sigras wrote:


wow im assuming youve never been in null sec right? First of all, bringing the AOE DD back would only make the drake more popular because its the cheapest ship that can survive one, and second, people try to counter drakes with battleships all the time, and with turret battleships which you claim are "better" than the raven . . . usually it works out poorly for them.


OMG .... you dont get it, do you? Turret BS would shred Ravens, there is no discussion about this. Thats simply because the Raven is big and slow enough. A fixed CM/Raven would still not PWN all, but could be set to be balanced vs its counterparts. But it could RIP Drake-blobs. Simple - it would have similar mechanics, but more range and EHP than a Drake. The better speed would be not so much of an issue due to tracking mechanics of missiles. So Ravens would be the rock for scissor Drakes, but other BS could be Paper for Ravens.

Sigras wrote:

Just an FYI, but im sure you know this already, the regular HML missiles go as far as the "range bonused low dps ammo" for the turrets . . . but you knew that already right?

Also lasers and railguns have no ammo that makes them better at hitting small fast targets like missiles do . . . so to each his own.


FYI, thats not true after the nerfs. Then its 37.5 km before skills. And thats just the theoretical max, not what they will reach ingame. So just learn to read and understand before you come back. Please.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4054 - 2012-10-02 20:08:59 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:

FYI, thats not true after the nerfs. Then its 37.5 km before skills. And thats just the theoretical max, not what they will reach ingame. So just learn to read and understand before you come back. Please.


Go look at turrets "before skills:" and get back to us.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4055 - 2012-10-02 20:14:29 UTC
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:


well before tengu, all were crazy about caldari navy raven. and actually golems. it's quite funny, that most of the people doing pve were flying caldari, even when fotm-lvl4 tengu was not around.
and since you brought the machariel into it. you may have a look at the rattlesnake too, which was quite famous to for missioning, before tengu of corse.

as for "winmatar" t1 battleships, you would be suprised how many more skills (compared to raven or tengu for that matter) are needed to make the typhoon worth while.
maybe its time you tried to do missions ( or pvp) in turret ships. you might get an inside in how it is for people on the other side (and yes i have a caldari char and yes ive done pve with caldari missile boats).




If you read just some of my postings you would know I can fly every subcap combat ship with all l5 except some specs which are on l4. So thanks, I know which skills are needed. And yes, the Typhoon is a very skill intense ship indeed. I agree with you too about CNRs and Golems. They had their times. That was before the buff of pirate faction BS (Mach and Mare!) and Projectile Ammo buff. Since then Vargur/Machariel is by FAR top of the foodchain. Admitted, a CNR is still not a *bad* ship, but its far enough from the top, same as Golem, to show how far out of line Projectiles have gone. The only ship which is considered to be still halfway efficient in comparison with those tops (and Mare/Pala for em/therm missions) is the Tengu.

I never heard someone saying the Kronos is on par, AFAIK its not. So Golem and Kronos are worse than Pala and esp. Vargur - why? They are meant for PvE, so they should also be balanced in that, right? I agree on this is not the first priority, just because this game should not be balanced around PvE. How comes all those Drake haters come then with this stupid "but Drake can do l4s!!" argument? :)

You guys have to decide. You want balance around PvE or not?

If yes, fine, bring everything in line. Winmatar should be not first after this but on par with the rest. Or behind, to compensate for the long suffering :D (j/k)

If no, go on: in PvP Caldari has 2 useful missile hulls and 3 hulls at all in top 20. Winmatar has 11 ships in top 20. Balance? I think not. Solve those issues we have with Winmatar, and I am the first to sign any nerf idea for remaining OP ships, if they are Caldari, Amarr, Gallente or Pirate. I have all Pirate BS in my collection, and like them all in a way, but the only which I really use are Mare and Mach. Sometimes the RS when I am lazy .... I dont want OPs and UPs, I want useful ships. Every ship should be able to perform well if fitted right and flown well. Atm some are just unusable and others are totally OP. Thats not the game I want to play.

By all means - no to OP ships. But dont look just for the Caldari OPs. Thats all what I am saying!
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4056 - 2012-10-02 20:17:48 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:

FYI, thats not true after the nerfs. Then its 37.5 km before skills. And thats just the theoretical max, not what they will reach ingame. So just learn to read and understand before you come back. Please.


Go look at turrets "before skills:" and get back to us.


For example .. 720mm Arty - Tremor - 43 + 18. In my book somehow this is more than 37.5 km, no? And esp. considering the fact there is also falloff ... go look at "falloff" for missiles and get back to us. Or better, dont come back at all. Really sick of this sh*t :)
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
#4057 - 2012-10-02 20:18:42 UTC
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:
it's quite funny, that most of the people doing pve were flying caldari, even when fotm-lvl4 tengu was not around.



This always makes me laugh high and hard. If you do lvl4's and kill all rats with your Tengu, you're doing it wrong.
Tengu is the MASTER of BLITZ, I guess you don't really understand what this means.


let me stop you right there. right from the start you are making assumptions.
where did i talk about how people are flying their missions?

Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:

If you want to know what a fotom ship is or what looks like just mission some day with a faction/DED fit Machariel or Nightmare, now those are like "waw" in dps/alpha you murder everything on grid FTL than you will ever be able to do with a 2billion Tengu.


actually, flavor of the month (there, i spelled it out) describes a certain fitting/ set up currently very popular.
so where exactly is the connection to raw dps, or lvl4 playstyle in general?
and here i thought in eve it was all about the best mix between effort, risk and profit. silly me.

Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:

You make me think about someone not having a single idea what he's talking about and just moans about Tengus, T3 boosting, then T3's in general etc etc etc when the problem clearly comes from something else.


i do not even want to know what went wrong there.

Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:

Earlier you reffer to Hurricane as bad ship, then Drake as OP. Don't be surprised if people don't take you seriously or think you're trolling.


would you mind quoting this part? because i have no recollection of saying the things you'd like to put into my mouth. on the drakes, yeah i think there some serious issues, but i certainly did not reffer to the cane as a bad ship.
but given the way you interprid my posts in a very curious fashion, it would not be to far fetched to assume you warp something into my words which was not there.

since we are at the topic, please enlighten this unworthy person, who failed to see the truth. you seem to percieve it as a quite obvious fact.
Lili Lu
#4058 - 2012-10-02 20:19:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:

Medium rails are seeing use in pvp on Nagas..


How so? :)

Oops I mixed up the medium hull and medium weapons. I meant medium rails on the feroxes (and blasterroxs as well). And medium hull in the Naga. Lol at me for that slip up.

Noemi Nagano wrote:
As a shield Prophecy, maybe. But not as damage dealers on more than 15km. Simple as that ...
Wow, I must confess I have not seen a shield Prophecy. But of course those ASBs. . .Lol

Noemi Nagano wrote:
Tengu is 4th, 2nd is Zealot - that shows how this system works, the big numbers come mostly from nullsec. Has been pointed out how it works. In lowsec you dont see those many Zealots. And also not so many Drakes like you see Canes. Figure why ...

No, actually you do see the pirate alliances rolling in zealots (AHAC gangs) in lowsec quite a lot. They love that ship. AHAC gangs still work well in non nullsec blob fighting. Eve-kill does not just record null sec pvp activity. It would be interesting though if eve-kill could give us better stats and analysis of those stats to work with so we could get a sense of distributions.

Noemi Nagano wrote:
I agree with you on armor tanks have trouble with speed. But Caldari ships (most of them) do too, have no active tanking bonus and no working weapon system (except the turret ones, but those are also far from being top). So right now even those changes will not give anything to Caldari for combat PvP. Again, how can you call this balancing?

Caldari, have not needed speed. They have been able to sit at range and kite. And nanos on Drakes have worked quite well. As for active tanking, show some creativity. The resist bonuses can work just as nicely with a booster as with an extender. Regardless, the balance, again from our only available reference, eve-kill, has been displaying a dearth of Gallente and Amarr, While a whole lot of Caldari and Minmatar. That that gets evened out with these changes will be balancing.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4059 - 2012-10-02 20:24:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:

FYI, thats not true after the nerfs. Then its 37.5 km before skills. And thats just the theoretical max, not what they will reach ingame. So just learn to read and understand before you come back. Please.


Go look at turrets "before skills:" and get back to us.


For example .. 720mm Arty - Tremor - 43 + 18. In my book somehow this is more than 37.5 km, no? And esp. considering the fact there is also falloff ... go look at "falloff" for missiles and get back to us. Or better, dont come back at all. Really sick of this sh*t :)



yeah with a 14 second cycle time.


You don't want me to get mathematic, I'm an engineer after all.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#4060 - 2012-10-02 20:24:37 UTC
For all those Tengu Fan Bois complaining about a lack of a replacement ship for running level 4 missions, can I suggest using the Caldari Navy Raven, which has always been better for level 4s anyway (with a few notable exceptions).

The Navy Raven has a better tank and more damage as well as range than the Tengu ever had, and then has drones on top of that! Unless your missions involve very large distances to travel and you can pop a trigger to unlock the gate, the CNR is just better in every department. There are VERY few occasions where I would use a Tengu over a CNR.

Anyone using a Tengu in level 4s is doing it wrong!