These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#3941 - 2012-10-02 09:54:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Noemi Nagano wrote:

I already agreed on the fact HML are better than MEDIUM sized turrets atm. The fact I compare them with BS-sized turrets shows exactly the opposite of what you try to show: HML are not there because they are so massively OP, they are there because the BS-sized missile system are so MASSIVELY UP. Tengu wouldnt be your bet, if CNR or Golem would outperform it (which they should!), and then Tengus and HML would be a non-issue in PvE. Apart from that, they are already a non-issue in MY book in PvE, just because there are ships with turrets which are better. There are no missile ships which are better though! Now, where do we need the balance?

I did agree also on the fact there had to be some changes - read my postings and dont be so ignorant. I made suggestions like buffing turrets in a way, they not deal more absolute DPS (which they shouldnt) but the ranged DPS would be more in line with missiles. The damage graphs should be close together most of the time. This could easily be achieved by either buffing the turrets or giving missiles a dedicated long range ammo for HML (and Lights and CM too, maybe).

Drake would be non-existent in nullsec with CM/Ravens being no longer UP.

Seriously, why do you deny this simple truth?

So, HML are better than every other medium long range weapon, but don't nerf them ? And TC/TE affecting missiles would have made large missiles way better, but don't do it ? Oh, because of TD... Will "Because of pilgrim" become the new moto when losing a ship ? I don't think so...

PS : CCP Fozzy already explained why we cannot buff everything instead of nerfing one thing : it's called power creep.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#3942 - 2012-10-02 09:55:07 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Good job comparing HML to AC and Tachyons... lol. Are you trolling ?


In PvE you have to compare things which are used. Right or wrong? Its not my fault the CMs/Torps suck so hard in comparison to LAC/Tachs.

Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Please, the only fact that you can compare HML with anything else than medium long range turret is a proof of their OPness..


Err, no. The fact we need to compare them with those other systems shows we dont have an alternative weapon system as missile users. Thats the sad fact. I repeated tons of times: buff CMs/Torps and make Ravens usable in PvP, and 1) there will be no problems with HMLs anymore coz they would be outclassed then by CMs, and 2) even if there would be a nerf needed afterwards to bring em more in line with mlr turrets it would be not a big thing because Caldari missile users had something else to use.

Bouh Revetoile wrote:

PS : removing T2 ammo penalties is a plain buff in my definition.
PS 2 : adding more damage to T2 ammo is also a buff.


So, pls learn to read and understand.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtfS55wysRHHdGQzQjBoeVRSUFRQVjF3QV84S1d2SFE#gid=0

read the line with Fury missiles: you will see the Furies have LESS damage then. Not more. And removing penalties is a buff, but adding other penalties instead (Fury range!!! and every other single stat ... except speed) will result in a nerf, simple as that.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3943 - 2012-10-02 09:55:48 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

And now, the changes look more like a plain buff, with faster missiles and usable T2 ammo, and people still cry to the nerf ?!!




They never have been superior to long range large turrets. Thats just BS you bring that up here :) HML are inferior to the best turrets (large AC and Tachys) in many aspects, still they are used because they are the best missile system atm. I see no problem in nerfing them, if missile users get something else: a working missile BS which is not Winmatar would be a good start. Buff CM/Raven, and HML are a non-issue in PvP, and will be significantly less used in PvE.

To those who say Drakes are used in lowsec and so on - ofc they are. I never said they are not. Still, Drakes are not *overused* there, the only place where you see too many is nullsec. Period


The fact that you have to comare HMLs to BATTLESHIP weapons isnt somewhat telling? Not to mention, when was the last time you saw a Tachyon battleship on a killmail? Last time I saw tachyon anything it was PL with tach Oracles.


I already agreed on the fact HML are better than MEDIUM sized turrets atm. The fact I compare them with BS-sized turrets shows exactly the opposite of what you try to show: HML are not there because they are so massively OP, they are there because the BS-sized missile system are so MASSIVELY UP. Tengu wouldnt be your bet, if CNR or Golem would outperform it (which they should!), and then Tengus and HML would be a non-issue in PvE. Apart from that, they are already a non-issue in MY book in PvE, just because there are ships with turrets which are better. There are no missile ships which are better though! Now, where do we need the balance?

I did agree also on the fact there had to be some changes - read my postings and dont be so ignorant. I made suggestions like buffing turrets in a way, they not deal more absolute DPS (which they shouldnt) but the ranged DPS would be more in line with missiles. The damage graphs should be close together most of the time. This could easily be achieved by either buffing the turrets or giving missiles a dedicated long range ammo for HML (and Lights and CM too, maybe).

Drake would be non-existent in nullsec with CM/Ravens being no longer UP.

Seriously, why do you deny this simple truth?


Raven?

I doubt it, a slow shield boat? Do you have any idea what a blap dread would do to them?

Not to mention, baddons would tear them apart on buffer alone.

...and the missile users whined enough for them to hold off on the change that would have helped the BS missiles.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#3944 - 2012-10-02 09:57:22 UTC
And stop using PVE for a base to balancing issue please. PVE is the art of fooling a poor machine and min-maxing everything else. You cannot balance pve, because you would have to make all the things the same in order to do it.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#3945 - 2012-10-02 10:01:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
HAHA, about the "nerfed" range of fury missiles : short range ammo of medium long range turret have an optimale range of 9km, after the skills, 20km with falloff and couple TE... Short range you said ? Let me lough please.

PS : and I didn't spoke about the tracking issues you have at this range. At least, you can hit things orbiting you at 10km with fury.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#3946 - 2012-10-02 10:05:27 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

So, HML are better than every other medium long range weapon, but don't nerf them ? And TC/TE affecting missiles would have made large missiles way better, but don't do it ? Oh, because of TD... Will "Because of pilgrim" become the new moto when losing a ship ? I don't think so...

PS : CCP Fozzy already explained why we cannot buff everything instead of nerfing one thing : it's called power creep.


HML are better than every other mlr weapon.

Large AC are better than every other lsr weapon.

Tachys are better than every other llr weapon for one aspect.

Large Arty are better than every other llr weapon for another aspect.

Medium AC are better than every other msr weapon.

So if you agree with me to nerf all in this list (and all which will end up in this list after you nerfed those here ..), then yes: nerf HML.

I dont see this is happening. And I dont see any missile systems here apart from HML. Thats the point for many here: missiles cant be best in something, else they have to be nerfed. Turrets may be best in one thing , because "there has to be one best, no?" ...

Bring those things in line, all of them. Or leave some OP things in game and dont complain about other OP things.

Seriously: Large AC are OP in every single aspect, starting with how long they can shoot til they have to reload to the platforms they are used on to their versatility. HML are OP in some aspects and on par in others. And they are only really of use in 2 (!) ships. There is not a single missile BS playing a role except those 2 ships. The only half viable PvP Missile BS is NOT Caldari but - surprise - Winmatar. How much more do you need to see whats going on? Nerfing the Drake, Tengu and/or HML will not bring balance to Eve. It will make it even more boring/Winmatar only. Those who dont see this are beyond hope. And many of those who see this will do like I will, end their sub.
Bubanni
Primal Instinct Inc.
The Initiative.
#3947 - 2012-10-02 10:07:39 UTC
The thing I was looking forward the most to... was tracking disruptors vs missiles (and TE/TC working on missiles too)
I really think you should do your best to get this into the winter expansion as it's the most game changing

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#3948 - 2012-10-02 10:09:02 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
HAHA, about the "nerfed" range of fury missiles : short range ammo of medium long range turret have an optimale range of 9km, after the skills, 20km with falloff and couple TE... Short range you said ? Let me lough please.

PS : and I didn't spoke about the tracking issues you have at this range. At least, you can hit things orbiting you at 10km with fury.


Fury range according to this spreadsheet is 13.975 km. Will end up at around 20 in real game. And compare the DPS, too ..
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#3949 - 2012-10-02 10:10:00 UTC
Onictus wrote:

Raven?

I doubt it, a slow shield boat? Do you have any idea what a blap dread would do to them?

Not to mention, baddons would tear them apart on buffer alone.

...and the missile users whined enough for them to hold off on the change that would have helped the BS missiles.


Yes, but Ravens would obliterate Drake fleets. Paper, rock, scissors, you know?
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3950 - 2012-10-02 10:11:43 UTC
Large ACs are op?

You sir have never used a scortch mega pulse lol. 800 mm reapeaters pale in comparison.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#3951 - 2012-10-02 10:12:58 UTC
HaHa, I miss the best part of irony in short range fury missiles : only turret which will have the same range will be on caldari boats grace to their optimale range bonus. Isn't this funny ? :D

About the AC, I'm all for a nerf to them : they should use a bit of capacitor IMO, because this is their most OP thing, the neut immunity. Otherwise, people tend to confuse optimale+falloff and optimal.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3952 - 2012-10-02 10:13:51 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Onictus wrote:

Raven?

I doubt it, a slow shield boat? Do you have any idea what a blap dread would do to them?

Not to mention, baddons would tear them apart on buffer alone.

...and the missile users whined enough for them to hold off on the change that would have helped the BS missiles.


Yes, but Ravens would obliterate Drake fleets. Paper, rock, scissors, you know?


....and get ruined by nagas, nadoes, oracles, and every other BS doctrine.
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#3953 - 2012-10-02 10:14:17 UTC
Hannott Thanos wrote:
rodyas wrote:
^ With comparison to great white shark.

All the rats would just alert each other a tengu warped in, then they would warp out and vacate the area till you left, then come back in.

I don't see you making much isk that way, and might feel wimpy still.

And when you trained for it, you didn't do it because it was OP, you just happened to be Caldari. You actually considered to train for the Legion, because all T3 are just as good for everything, but ended up with the Tengu by accident. Correct?


Well after this nerf the tengu will be more like the legion. You should be happy, get to try something you always wanted to do. Even CCP helped ya do it, so it wasn't too hard.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#3954 - 2012-10-02 10:20:27 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:

Fury range according to this spreadsheet is 13.975 km. Will end up at around 20 in real game. And compare the DPS, too ..

I did, though the turret dps at 10km is not what you get in EFT, very far from this. Tracking issues we call this.

Balance : when things are not the same and all have some pros and cons. Fury will still have a crazy alpha and dps, will still be meh against frigates, but still don't have tracking to care about, and hence still do steady and reliable damage.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#3955 - 2012-10-02 10:28:59 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Large ACs are op?

You sir have never used a scortch mega pulse lol. 800 mm reapeaters pale in comparison.


I did. In fact scored most of my BS kills with Mega Pulse ..... but with a fast ship and the insane falloff boost of TEs ACs rock.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#3956 - 2012-10-02 10:29:44 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Onictus wrote:

Raven?

I doubt it, a slow shield boat? Do you have any idea what a blap dread would do to them?

Not to mention, baddons would tear them apart on buffer alone.

...and the missile users whined enough for them to hold off on the change that would have helped the BS missiles.


Yes, but Ravens would obliterate Drake fleets. Paper, rock, scissors, you know?


....and get ruined by nagas, nadoes, oracles, and every other BS doctrine.


But still they would get rid of Drakes, right?
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3957 - 2012-10-02 10:33:08 UTC
Bubanni wrote:
The thing I was looking forward the most to... was tracking disruptors vs missiles (and TE/TC working on missiles too)
I really think you should do your best to get this into the winter expansion as it's the most game changing



It is, that is why you should implant it when the ship lines are done with the initial ballance.

certainly not before you're done with T1 battleships, preferably not before they are done with every sub cap ship.

On a side note to the TD change, I still think it should be different modules not unlike EMC.

On the other hand it might opens an options for action mods:

As in a Faction mod that can jam both, with script, should be a nice Anmar Navy mod.

It could also be done for other racial features: Anmar Laser/missile mod, Minmatar, Projectile/missile, Caldari Hybride/Missile, Gallente Hyrbid drone, racial E-War combinations ect.

Should give some love to those mixed platform ships, at a Price ofcource.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3958 - 2012-10-02 10:37:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Large ACs are op?

You sir have never used a scortch mega pulse lol. 800 mm reapeaters pale in comparison.


I did. In fact scored most of my BS kills with Mega Pulse ..... but with a fast ship and the insane falloff boost of TEs ACs rock.


Tornado and Machariel are the only falloff bonused hull.

Neither of which is very prevalent with ACs people don't like commiting billion isk hulls to point range, and Toradis don't and enough tank to brawl with anything that can hit back.
Vulfen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#3959 - 2012-10-02 10:38:21 UTC
Quote:
Short Range Missiles
Change the Guided Missile Precision skill, as well as all associated implants and rigs to affect all subcap missiles


I'm wondering if this will apply to the "Flare" missile rig aswell as that is the only rig with this restriction currently
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3960 - 2012-10-02 10:39:05 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Onictus wrote:

Raven?

I doubt it, a slow shield boat? Do you have any idea what a blap dread would do to them?

Not to mention, baddons would tear them apart on buffer alone.

...and the missile users whined enough for them to hold off on the change that would have helped the BS missiles.


Yes, but Ravens would obliterate Drake fleets. Paper, rock, scissors, you know?


....and get ruined by nagas, nadoes, oracles, and every other BS doctrine.


But still they would get rid of Drakes, right?


Numbers game, cruises have the range, but if the Drakes kill thier mwds logi can likely hold them up,with torps lol pull range.