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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Lallante
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#3701 - 2012-10-01 12:43:26 UTC
Looking forward to v2 of the changes.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3702 - 2012-10-01 13:16:27 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
How so? Drake all l5 except BC, which I set on 0 manually to get the res bonus away will have a bit below 83k EHP with 2 invul, 2 LSE, 3 extender rigs and a DC II. Thats not a small number, agreed, but less than 90k and over 20k less than a HG Slaved Harby ..


And some 520k less than Slaved Damnation... Your point?

Why do you keep bringing up HG Slaves? Did I miss something?
Lili Lu
#3703 - 2012-10-01 13:35:43 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
How so? Drake all l5 except BC, which I set on 0 manually to get the res bonus away will have a bit below 83k EHP with 2 invul, 2 LSE, 3 extender rigs and a DC II. Thats not a small number, agreed, but less than 90k and over 20k less than a HG Slaved Harby ..


And some 520k less than Slaved Damnation... Your point?

Why do you keep bringing up HG Slaves? Did I miss something?

Yes. You see he's telling Gypsio that HAM Drakes suck against the ubiquitous HG slaved Harby You missed that he's batshit crazy and see all his enemies sporting HG slave clones in Harbingers when fighting his main . .

ah, that is assuming he has a main that pvps somewhere because it seems he'd rather use an npc corp posting alt on the forums here with no combat record, at all, ever. P

But you know he could be right about HG Slaved Harbingers everywhere, because those sets are so cheap. And of course those folks are soloing C3s in ships other than Tengus making tons of isk with which to fight in HG slaved and presumably also pimped Harbys in high and low sec . . with all the money they are making with ships other than tengus in wormholes . . .Roll
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3704 - 2012-10-01 13:41:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Lili Lu wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
How so? Drake all l5 except BC, which I set on 0 manually to get the res bonus away will have a bit below 83k EHP with 2 invul, 2 LSE, 3 extender rigs and a DC II. Thats not a small number, agreed, but less than 90k and over 20k less than a HG Slaved Harby ..


And some 520k less than Slaved Damnation... Your point?

Why do you keep bringing up HG Slaves? Did I miss something?

Yes. You see he's telling Gypsio that HAM Drakes suck against the ubiquitous HG slaved Harby You missed that he's batshit crazy and see all his enemies sporting HG slave clones in Harbingers when fighting his main . .

ah, that is assuming he has a main that pvps somewhere because it seems he'd rather use an npc corp posting alt on the forums here with no combat record, at all, ever. P

But you know he could be right about HG Slaved Harbingers everywhere, because those sets are so cheap. And of course those folks are soloing C3s in ships other than Tengus making tons of isk with which to fight in HG slaved and presumably also pimped Harbys in high and low sec . . with all the money they are making with ships other than tengus in wormholes . . .Roll


They better be in C3s if they can use HG Slaves in every fight. 2 bil in implants alone...

Just makes me wonder what kind of loot you would get from those Harbingers...
Lili Lu
#3705 - 2012-10-01 13:46:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Soldarius wrote:
I would like to remind everyone that one of the facets of missiles is that they project damage better than equivalent turrets. So seriously, CCP. Nerfing missile range will pretty much kill them, because once you close on a missile boat, they usually diaf.

How is a missile boat with 6 mids and up to 4 to devote to tank and having a resist bonus, less sturdy than a 4 total mid-slot no-resist bonus ship shoehorning a flimsy shield tank into 2 (maybe) midslots?

How does nerfing missile range kill missile boats? You need a lot more evidence to support that assertion.
Lili Lu
#3706 - 2012-10-01 14:11:29 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
You agreed yourself on the fact the Drake is NOT overused over the Cane in low and high, in fact you said the Cane is stronger in numbers there, but this "wont justify" in your opinion the overuse of Drakes in nullsec.

you are ofc allowed to think like this. Me and many others feel the other way round: we dont think the overuse of Drakes in nullsec blobs is something which justifies a nerf of a ship (and/or its weapon system) which works well but not OP in all other parts of this game, esp. when you compare the OPness of a whole race and their overuse in every part of Eve now, be it PvP or PvE.

I, however, agreed on the idea of bringing medium long range a bit more in line with each other. Allow HML to deal substantial DPS at closer ranges like the counterparts do, give HML dedicated long range ammo which makes it WORTH shooting on far away targets by having small DPS (like turrets) but fast hits too (nearly like turrets), so your
enemy wont be 2 times in warp before the first salvo could actually be there. Still the result should be the Drake is not 4th of 4 in close combat and 4th of 4 in long range. If its last in one its perfectly ok that its first in the other one. Even you with your biased viewpoint cant neglect this fact. Or maybe you can, we will see how you make me laugh next time :)

Nowhere did I agree with you that there are more canes than drakes in lowsec. My FW alt sees more drakes in lowsec. And noone is going to say there are more canes in null than drakes. Are you?

And it is not drake overuse in nullsec alone that has led to this nerf. CCP has much better tools to monitor stats on ship and module use than we have. Basically about the only thing we as players have is the eve-kill top 20. And on that Drakes have been king for years now. And that is only looking at a sample of pvp use, but it is a sample that is spread accross the eve battle environments. It is not just 0.0 alliances that post kills there.

One of the devs was tweeting CCPs numbers on daily module activations and someone posted it in a thread about 6 months ago. I can't remember which dev and in which thread. But the activations on HML II were on top by a multiple of the second place module which I think was 800mm AC II. So you see that stat was catching all pvp and pve weapon usage and there it was the Drake and Tengu overuse written very plainly.

You like to complain about Macharial and 800mm AC usage. Fine. I don't defend anything about the Mach. It could get a a nerf as well (or maybe the fall-off bonuses on TC and TE). But heavy missiles are used much more in the game.

As for your targets warping before your missiles land all I can say is get closer yourself or get better tackle.Straight

Oh, and post with your main that has some pvp record. It can help people judge the worth of your arguments. It indicates you have some experience with pvp and are not just using eft or hearsay. To post with an npc corp forum alt just allows someone to dismiss your statements easily. Make it hard for me to do that.Blink
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#3707 - 2012-10-01 14:24:10 UTC
Soldarius wrote:

I would like to remind everyone that one of the facets of missiles is that they project damage better than equivalent turrets. So seriously, CCP. Nerfing missile range will pretty much kill them, because once you close on a missile boat, they usually diaf.


this person does not know what he is talking about and should be ignored.

I should buy an Ishtar.
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3708 - 2012-10-01 14:29:32 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. Spent part of the morning catching up on the posts here over the weekend. I'm planning on posting the 2.0 version of these missile changes here later today after I make sure that the CSM have enough time to get their feedback across.
The basic preview of what you should expect is that we're separating the proposal into multiple parts so we can put some of it out in the winter and then re-evaluate the rest for subsequent patches.

BTW I want to make clear that we don't balance ships around the alliance tournament. It's a very different environment than normal TQ fighting.


All I need to know is, do you love me?
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3709 - 2012-10-01 14:31:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Daniel Plain wrote:
Soldarius wrote:

I would like to remind everyone that one of the facets of missiles is that they project damage better than equivalent turrets. So seriously, CCP. Nerfing missile range will pretty much kill them, because once you close on a missile boat, they usually diaf.


this person does not know what he is talking about and should be ignored.



Really missiles miss? Lose damage to fall off? Any of the above.

No, oh wait.

Who doesn't know what they are talking about again?



says the pilot with no record on evekill.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#3710 - 2012-10-01 14:34:19 UTC
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. Spent part of the morning catching up on the posts here over the weekend. I'm planning on posting the 2.0 version of these missile changes here later today after I make sure that the CSM have enough time to get their feedback across.
The basic preview of what you should expect is that we're separating the proposal into multiple parts so we can put some of it out in the winter and then re-evaluate the rest for subsequent patches.

BTW I want to make clear that we don't balance ships around the alliance tournament. It's a very different environment than normal TQ fighting.


All I need to know is, do you love me?


I love all our players equally. Smile

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#3711 - 2012-10-01 14:40:35 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Soldarius wrote:

I would like to remind everyone that one of the facets of missiles is that they project damage better than equivalent turrets. So seriously, CCP. Nerfing missile range will pretty much kill them, because once you close on a missile boat, they usually diaf.


this person does not know what he is talking about and should be ignored.



Really missiles miss? Lose damage to fall off? Any of the above.

No, oh wait.

Who doesn't know what they are talking about again?



says the pilot with no record on evekill.


you burned the wrong guy there mate.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Lili Lu
#3712 - 2012-10-01 14:53:15 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
I love all our players equally. Smile

This is helping none of our persecution complexes.

"your doing it wrong" P
Eckyy
United Caldari Navy
United Caldari Space Command.
#3713 - 2012-10-01 15:09:09 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. Spent part of the morning catching up on the posts here over the weekend. I'm planning on posting the 2.0 version of these missile changes here later today after I make sure that the CSM have enough time to get their feedback across.
The basic preview of what you should expect is that we're separating the proposal into multiple parts so we can put some of it out in the winter and then re-evaluate the rest for subsequent patches.

BTW I want to make clear that we don't balance ships around the alliance tournament. It's a very different environment than normal TQ fighting.


Excited to see what you've come up with =)
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3714 - 2012-10-01 15:09:33 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. Spent part of the morning catching up on the posts here over the weekend. I'm planning on posting the 2.0 version of these missile changes here later today after I make sure that the CSM have enough time to get their feedback across.
The basic preview of what you should expect is that we're separating the proposal into multiple parts so we can put some of it out in the winter and then re-evaluate the rest for subsequent patches.

BTW I want to make clear that we don't balance ships around the alliance tournament. It's a very different environment than normal TQ fighting.


All I need to know is, do you love me?


I love all our players equally. Smile


ahhh. You're so sweet..

Serious question though...


While I understand the nerfing of heavy missiles as a cruiser size weapon.

Is there a plan in motion to buff this factor with the drake itself, as it's a Bc and not a standar cruiser?

I personally see the drake getting a shield recharge rate nerf removing it as a passive tank ship, thus making it more suseptible to cap warfare and a good amount less EHP.

However, in order for that to work it would need buffs towards missiles to counter this loss.

So, I guess what I'm really asking is

Are heavy missiles be balanced as though they were on a cruiser and will be compensated for on the drake, or are the be nerfed without compesation for the drake?
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3715 - 2012-10-01 15:15:29 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Soldarius wrote:

I would like to remind everyone that one of the facets of missiles is that they project damage better than equivalent turrets. So seriously, CCP. Nerfing missile range will pretty much kill them, because once you close on a missile boat, they usually diaf.


this person does not know what he is talking about and should be ignored.



Really missiles miss? Lose damage to fall off? Any of the above.

No, oh wait.

Who doesn't know what they are talking about again?



says the pilot with no record on evekill.


Missiles do miss.

"Your volley of scourge Fury hit (target) for 0 damage"

0 damage is not a hit.

Also, we may not lose damage to fall off, but we also can't fire past our range.
Turrets can still hit up to double their falloff just not for much...

That said, missiles also don't get critical or wrecking hits either...
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#3716 - 2012-10-01 15:16:30 UTC
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
So, I guess what I'm really asking is

Are heavy missiles be balanced as though they were on a cruiser and will be compensated for on the drake, or are the be nerfed without compesation for the drake?


wtb cruise missile drake.

I should buy an Ishtar.
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3717 - 2012-10-01 15:19:16 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
So, I guess what I'm really asking is

Are heavy missiles be balanced as though they were on a cruiser and will be compensated for on the drake, or are the be nerfed without compesation for the drake?


wtb cruise missile drake.


lol, that would be a terrible terrible ship..
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3718 - 2012-10-01 15:31:11 UTC
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
So, I guess what I'm really asking is

Are heavy missiles be balanced as though they were on a cruiser and will be compensated for on the drake, or are the be nerfed without compesation for the drake?


wtb cruise missile drake.


lol, that would be a terrible terrible ship..


I thought you guys want best ship in game.

I have to agree that there's something wrong with missile BSs when "worst turret ship" aka Rokh can rip through Raven's tank.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8aX60biCE4#t=6m04s
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#3719 - 2012-10-01 15:57:26 UTC
Honestly, the Raven has never been renowned for tanking. You can get a vaguely respectable shield buffer on there, but it'll never compete with the Rokh's tank.

This is part of the torp-Raven problem - it's not entirely clear whether the problem is lack of torp range, difficulty of torp damage application or inadequacies in the torp platform (Raven). Part of the problem is that BS themselves have become slightly niche in the small-gang environment where missiles are generally best (excluding the HML Drake blobs, ofc) - small gangs want mobility and BS aren't really mobile, least of all the Raven... Lol

So more range for torps? Cut explosion radius to 400 m? Or an extra medslot for the Raven? Some combination of the three? No idea myself.
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#3720 - 2012-10-01 16:01:10 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:


I thought you guys want best ship in game.

I have to agree that there's something wrong with missile BSs when "worst turret ship" aka Rokh can rip through Raven's tank.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8aX60biCE4#t=6m04s


i agree that ravens suck, however, rokh's are awesome ships, don't know where you are getting the "worst turret ship" idea from. It might need a bit of a speed buff (like the merlin got), but it's a great ship.

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us