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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Sigras
Conglomo
#3441 - 2012-09-28 16:49:18 UTC
Retardo Khaan wrote:
fact still remains that cane is op compared to drake. And drake has one less rig slot because it needs acr to fit sr guns.

Also your talking about 25k ham range. Is that with those crappy javelins or is that EFT warrioring because my ham drake has 18k range in game.

its with javelins . . . you know . . . the ammo designed for long range?

its amazing what happens when you put the right ammo in for the right situation.

and guess what? the drake with javelins does way more DPS at 25 than the cane with barrage and 425s
Retardo Khaan
Slow Motion.
#3442 - 2012-09-28 16:54:43 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Retardo Khaan wrote:
fact still remains that cane is op compared to drake. And drake has one less rig slot because it needs acr to fit sr guns.

Also your talking about 25k ham range. Is that with those crappy javelins or is that EFT warrioring because my ham drake has 18k range in game.

its with javelins . . . you know . . . the ammo designed for long range?

its amazing what happens when you put the right ammo in for the right situation.

and guess what? the drake with javelins does way more DPS at 25 than the cane with barrage and 425s


You do know that javelins make you even slower?
"It can reach higher velocity than the Scourge Heavy Assault Missile but needs to reduce the speed of the ship to compensate."
Thats why i said crappy.
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3443 - 2012-09-28 16:56:49 UTC
This thread has derailed.

No response to anything from CCP in quite a few pages and I highly doubt someone is keeping up and reading every page.


I guess we should just face it.


The only missiles that are now viable in pvp are going to be hams.

We're losing the tengu as our high efficiency missile boat.

And we're losing the only two danage focused missile boats viable in pvp above a cruiser.


So, to those of us who are truly effected by this, I guess we have the choice of unsubbing, or cross training.

Cause it doesn't look like what we have to say matters.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3444 - 2012-09-28 17:01:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Retardo Khaan wrote:



No you didnt understand the point at all. Its cheating to use ACR with HAM drake in comparison to AC cane that doesnt need to fit ACR for SR guns. As my point was that cane does too much dps when it can fit so many gyro. And by reducing its CPU it would balance AC cane compared to HAM drake. Also meta 4 modules are stupid because meta4 point has only 20k range. And meta4 DCU has lower resists. Also its price issue. You do know how much meta4 cost? Also its stupid because i could aswell make deadspace fitted cane to compare it to T2 fit drake cause price wont matter right?



Doesn't need an ACR it needs a 2% PG implant.

[Drake, ham]

7x Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II (Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile)

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II
EM Ward Field II
Warp Disruptor II
Stasis Webifier II

3x Ballistic Control System II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
2x Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

1.91% over power with my fitting skills.

Retardo Khaan wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Retardo Khaan wrote:
fact still remains that cane is op compared to drake. And drake has one less rig slot because it needs acr to fit sr guns.

Also your talking about 25k ham range. Is that with those crappy javelins or is that EFT warrioring because my ham drake has 18k range in game.

its with javelins . . . you know . . . the ammo designed for long range?

its amazing what happens when you put the right ammo in for the right situation.

and guess what? the drake with javelins does way more DPS at 25 than the cane with barrage and 425s


You do know that javelins make you even slower?
"It can reach higher velocity than the Scourge Heavy Assault Missile but needs to reduce the speed of the ship to compensate."
Thats why i said crappy.



If you read the OP the ship based penalties are going away
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#3445 - 2012-09-28 17:22:46 UTC
Retardo Khaan wrote:

You do know that javelins make you even slower?

As stated, read the OP, and you will see that will no longer be a fact. Makes me wonder how many actually read the OP. And how many of those again understood it...

Also. My armor tank wants to have a word with you about speed

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Doddy
Excidium.
#3446 - 2012-09-28 17:23:43 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
Doddy wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:

believe it or not, eve is not all about blob warfare.



Believe it or not Blob warfare doesn't have anything to do with it. In a solo situation sleip might be better because of lol ASBs but that is really the only situation the sleipnir is obviously better, and that is down to asbs, not that they are currently easy to fit on an arty sleipnir .....

two things:
1. as long as ASBs are the way they are, the sleipnir is better period.
2. even without ASBs, the sleipnir is a lot more versatile than the nighthawk and birngs many advantages to compensate for its only real disadvantage (projection).


Not really, you tried fitting an asb on an arty sleip? Doesn't really work. Asbs effectiveness diminish with size of battle anyway, so it would only ever matter in a small fight. And an arty sleip is less versatile than a hml nighthawk period. The sleip hull is of course more versatile because you have extremely good autos on a ship with loads of fitting compared with the nighthawk with no ham bonuses and too little fitting. But that is why the NH hull needs a buff.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#3447 - 2012-09-28 17:36:25 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:


see, the problem is that neither figures nor fittings are guaranteed to give you a balanced picture of the current state of things. let us - just for a moment - assume that neither the drake nor the tengu were as good as they are. let's just say the drake loses its resistance bonus and becomes unpopular for 0.0 blobs and the tengu loses its ability to fit 100mn ABs. both ships will instantly plummet on the killboards and with them, so will HMLs.


I would not object to that either, if it helps to get Drakes unpopular for 0.0.

Daniel Plain wrote:

would then anybody in their right mind still complain about heavy missiles being too strong? i submit to you that heavy missiles would be where cruises, torpedoes and medium rails already are: insignificant and laughed at.


Yep, exactly what I try to tell those guys for ages now - its not the OP HML, its the system in 0.0 which is the problem.

Daniel Plain wrote:

before you start burning straw men, please consider:
- i am not saying that drake and tengu are fine. both ships need a tweak.
- i am also not saying that heavy missiles are fine. in fact, you will find me and many others agree that the range nerf to HMLs is justified, but not the DPS nerf.
- what i AM saying is that if not for the drake or tengu, you would not even see heavy missiles on the kill boards, which indicates that the weapon system itself is not as OP as its paper stats seem to be.


I agree with you in all but one, the Drake is not OP in lowsec. It is however OP in null, just because you can use it like it is used there - cheap to replace, cheap to skill, get every grunt into one fast and its doing a good job then down there. But then again, something needs to be done, thats clear.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#3448 - 2012-09-28 17:49:20 UTC
Hannott Thanos wrote:

Lets say you have a system that is OP. In this case, that system is HML. The reason it is seen as OP is because of it''s great projection and great range.


The main problem is, you start with a wrong assumption. HML are not OP per se. They are part of an op system in Drakeblobs in nullsec. And they are OP in PvE in Drakes and Tengus. I can not really judge about the 100MN AB Tengu, never flew one and the Tengus I fought seemed not that OP to me when they had it fitted. Maybe also noob pilots, cant say.

I can understand how people think they are OP when they just compare paper stats, but I can assure you, they are not OP as you think they are ... maybe its just so set up in peoples mind that missile ships suck at PvP that they think a missile system must be OP if it works in PvP?
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#3449 - 2012-09-28 17:51:42 UTC
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Retardo Khaan wrote:

You do know that javelins make you even slower?

As stated, read the OP, and you will see that will no longer be a fact. Makes me wonder how many actually read the OP. And how many of those again understood it...

Also. My armor tank wants to have a word with you about speed


My shield tank wants to have a word with your armor tank about HG Slaves ..
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#3450 - 2012-09-28 18:04:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Eckyy wrote:
Bloutok wrote:
Yes, the Caracal is going from bad to bad.......

Is the Caracal the only cruiser getting a buff ?


Lol-fit Caracal you can do post-patch:

[Caracal, 2]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Tracking Enhancer II

Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Tracking Computer II - Missile Flight Time Script
Tracking Computer II - Missile Flight Time Script

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile

Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I


352dps (405dps overheated) with full damage type selection
250km lock range with fleet bonuses
328km theoretical max range

^ This takes into account stacking penalties, and assumes TC's will give a 30% range bonus. Even if it's 15% you can still get the Caracal's missile range past 250km. This does not include the planned HML nerf.

Additionally, if CCP goes through with giving Fury higher DPS and less range, the DPS number will be even higher and you can probably still hit past 250km.

A bad T1 cruiser is one that can lob 350+ DPS out almost 100km past maximum lock range? Granted, this is a comedy fit, but it illustrates that something isn't right.

Maybe velocity and flight time need to be stacked against each other, or maybe nerf heavy missiles. Maybe only give TC's and TE's the ability to modify explosion radius and explosion velocity, and leave range in the realm of rigs only. I'm not sure what the fix is, but something is wrong with missiles when you take a ship that is pretty much in-line with its peers as far as slot layout and bonuses go, and it throws out better numbers than a T2 fit sniper battleship.



Oh come on, you allow the buffed slot layout but ignore the DPS drop to prove a cruiser works, and one with zero tank whatsoever?

Todays caracal has a mighty sub 300 dps (which it'll NEVER apply to anything actually moving...except, ironcially a caldari BS Straight) with 2x BCUII and scourge fury. Yeah, I'm trembling at the thought of that...




Edit: Ah good, eve kill top 20 is back - a SINGLE missile system which isn't HML. ONE. Yeah, we TOTALLY need to be nerfing the missile boats which dont use heavy missiles What?
Doddy
Excidium.
#3451 - 2012-09-28 18:12:02 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Retardo Khaan wrote:

You do know that javelins make you even slower?

As stated, read the OP, and you will see that will no longer be a fact. Makes me wonder how many actually read the OP. And how many of those again understood it...

Also. My armor tank wants to have a word with you about speed


My shield tank wants to have a word with your armor tank about HG Slaves ..


My armour reps want to speak to your shield tank about crystal sets, and asbs, and boost amps, and active adaptives.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#3452 - 2012-09-28 18:40:24 UTC
Doddy wrote:


Except of course if drake was worse people would use nighthawk, it is flat out better, just more expensive. Everyone knows cerb is broken. Nobody uses t1 cruisers (yet), navy cara is soley not used because a drake is flat out better. So of the three other ships that actually use hmls 2 are not used purely becasue the drake is a better platform for the isk while the third has been broken since the missile nerf.


Sorry to disagree here, but no, the NH is not flat out better for PvP. Beginning with the slot-layout, going on with the PG ...

Doddy wrote:

I don't see why you can't understand how you need to balance the weapon systems before the ships that use them. Its the weapon that is broken.


No, Sir. And this statement wont get true if you repeat it a thousand times. HML per se is *not* a broken system. It has been explained tons of times, but some just deny to read and understand.

Doddy wrote:

If you just nerf the drake everyone will just use something else. Its the same with the other weapon systems, people find the best weapon system for a given tactic, then they look for the best platform. there is no point nerfing the platform, they will just pick the next best. Nerf navy geddon everyone goes back to abaddons for heavy pulse, nerf maelstroms evryone just uses tempests for 1400 arty. Balance the weapon systems though and its easy to fine tune ship bonuses.


So the fact everyone puts Artys and ACs to ships of other races with no ship bonuses shows you then, how OP Projectiles really are? Besides, which would be the "next" ship in your list to use your so called OP HML if the Drake would be nerfed? I am curious ..


Doddy wrote:

Balancing nighthawk with drake is relativelty straightforward - reduce the training requirements (in the works), add some fitting (so it can fit hams), change the hml only bonuses so they effect hams, and make it omni damage if they do so with the drake. Currently while NH is a little better than drake using hmls if you have the skills and the isk, it is not so with hams.


Personally I dont think training reqs should be reduced, but I may be a bit oldschool here. Apart from that I agree the NH doesnt need much, but its not as good with HML-PvP as you think it is, and slotlayout plays a role there. Could change though, if TE/TC-stuff really goes live ....
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#3453 - 2012-09-28 18:40:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Noemi Nagano
Doddy wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Retardo Khaan wrote:

You do know that javelins make you even slower?

As stated, read the OP, and you will see that will no longer be a fact. Makes me wonder how many actually read the OP. And how many of those again understood it...

Also. My armor tank wants to have a word with you about speed


My shield tank wants to have a word with your armor tank about HG Slaves ..


My armour reps want to speak to your shield tank about crystal sets, and asbs, and boost amps, and active adaptives.


Nice, you found the point Sir: things are different, and they are with a reason. Its just making sense to compare not stat by stat but get the whole picture first. Thats something many here seem to be completely unable to do though ...

When adressing the special issue here with Drake vs other BC, a crystal set will by no means be a pro Drake argument though, coz the only BC which can really use it well would be Winmatar ... funny enough, the buffer shield tanks have nothing to go with, the active shield tanks do, but the race which is shield tank only has next to no ship which can really make use of crystals :D
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#3454 - 2012-09-28 18:43:51 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:





Edit: Ah good, eve kill top 20 is back - a SINGLE missile system which isn't HML. ONE. Yeah, we TOTALLY need to be nerfing the missile boats which dont use heavy missiles What?


Yep .. and all those Drakes (and therefor most HML-kills) are just null sec war, as you can see with the No. 2 on the list ;) .. but go on, nerf missiles a bit more pls, they are so damn OP. And yeah, it must be missiles coz everyone knows Caldari and Drake suck at PvP, so if I get killed by one the reason must be OP weaponsystem!!!23
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3455 - 2012-09-28 19:03:10 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Retardo Khaan wrote:

You do know that javelins make you even slower?

As stated, read the OP, and you will see that will no longer be a fact. Makes me wonder how many actually read the OP. And how many of those again understood it...

Also. My armor tank wants to have a word with you about speed


My shield tank wants to have a word with your armor tank about HG Slaves ..


Because everyone runs around with 2.4 billion in implants for battlecruisers right.

Get the **** out.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#3456 - 2012-09-28 19:03:14 UTC
Well, let's not be hasty, HML do seem a bit *out there*, but the rest of the systems? Nope.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#3457 - 2012-09-28 19:07:54 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Retardo Khaan wrote:

You do know that javelins make you even slower?

As stated, read the OP, and you will see that will no longer be a fact. Makes me wonder how many actually read the OP. And how many of those again understood it...

Also. My armor tank wants to have a word with you about speed


My shield tank wants to have a word with your armor tank about HG Slaves ..


Because everyone runs around with 2.4 billion in implants for battlecruisers right.

Get the **** out.


Sorry to disagree, but yeah I know a fair lot of mostly lowsec mostly BC pilots who use HG Slaves in their Armorships. They just love the extra-performance. To be fair, yes its a sh*tload of money, but normally you wont lose it too ;)
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3458 - 2012-09-28 19:10:51 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Retardo Khaan wrote:

You do know that javelins make you even slower?

As stated, read the OP, and you will see that will no longer be a fact. Makes me wonder how many actually read the OP. And how many of those again understood it...

Also. My armor tank wants to have a word with you about speed


My shield tank wants to have a word with your armor tank about HG Slaves ..


Because everyone runs around with 2.4 billion in implants for battlecruisers right.

Get the **** out.


Sorry to disagree, but yeah I know a fair lot of mostly lowsec mostly BC pilots who use HG Slaves in their Armorships. They just love the extra-performance. To be fair, yes its a sh*tload of money, but normally you wont lose it too ;)


Heh that changed then. You woulg get guy that claimed they ran LGs but there were no podmails.
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#3459 - 2012-09-28 19:14:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Hannott Thanos
Well okey then, HML is not overpowered.

It is overpowered IN IT'S CLASS.

As compared to railguns, beams and arties several times before in this threadnaught, they overshadow EVERY other long range platform both in range and dps. And most people bring EFT dps in double falloff when mentioning turrets, don't do that please.
Edit: and oh, did I mention that if any turret ship fit the biggest long range guns, they have to drop the entire tank and fit 1 of each fitting mod? Your face if you had to use 4 mids on the Drake to fit HML's

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Atomic Option
NO Tax FAT Stacks
#3460 - 2012-09-28 19:18:08 UTC
All for the separate missile guidance disruptor / missile guidance computer / missile guidance enhancer modules. I haven't done the math on balancing, but given the difference in the type of bonus being provided, it doesn't make much sense to use the same modules from a lore perspective.

Additionally separate modules would preserve the ability to use missiles to counter heavy TD fleets, while providing a long awaited counter to missile DPS.