These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#3421 - 2012-09-28 15:06:35 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
I say from the point of view of missile boats being hugely underwhelming (aside from the two problem children): Why do missile boats need weakened at ALL?.


Buffing missile ships like Drake and Tengu without even a little nerf isn't a good idea to start...



It's not a direct buff, it's a compromise which would involve a loss of tank to do it on these hulls. That's an ok principle: more gank, less tank

However - those hulls are directly and clearly weakened by the HM changes already, there is no reason to lump TD effects on all other boats.


One more time for luck: Why are we reducing the combat effectiveness of already recognised weak hulls across the board? to what point or purpose? So they can spend 6 months even weaker before a rebalance puts them back to where they are today a-la the caracal?
Doddy
Excidium.
#3422 - 2012-09-28 15:08:26 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
MIrple wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Doddy wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:


oh btw: the SNIs damage is about half of what a pimped machariel can bring and no amount of tracking will get it even to comparable levels.


Why would it have comparable levels of dps to a double damage bonused pirate faction ship? Do you even know what you are saying?

because most other faction battleships do.


Stop comparing Faction BS to Pirate BS for one. Show me a Faction BS that gets a double damage bonus.

Edit: The Navy Tempest does get a Double Damage bonus but the other to the typhoon and the domi have a split damage bonus. So I will agree that the Tempest does have it but the others do not.

why would i stop comparing them? they are often used for the same tasks, so comparing them is perfectly reasonable. also, i couldn't care less which ship has which bonus. the fact of the matter is that most faction battleships can be fit to run decent dps whereas the scorpion can't. and tracking enhancers won't do anything to change that.


I dunno where you get your stats from man, t2 SNI - 1100 dps, t2 Machariel 1100 dps. machariel has more range (hard to say how much with out knowing tc bonuses for missiles), but then its meant to be better its 2 meta levels above SNI with double faction hull and a whole extra role bonus. Even so the SNI has a better tank. And the only other bs that has that sort of damage projection is the nightmare which is again a pirate faction ship.
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#3423 - 2012-09-28 15:09:03 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
MIrple wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Doddy wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:


oh btw: the SNIs damage is about half of what a pimped machariel can bring and no amount of tracking will get it even to comparable levels.


Why would it have comparable levels of dps to a double damage bonused pirate faction ship? Do you even know what you are saying?

because most other faction battleships do.


Stop comparing Faction BS to Pirate BS for one. Show me a Faction BS that gets a double damage bonus.

Edit: The Navy Tempest does get a Double Damage bonus but the other to the typhoon and the domi have a split damage bonus. So I will agree that the Tempest does have it but the others do not.

why would i stop comparing them? they are often used for the same tasks, so comparing them is perfectly reasonable. also, i couldn't care less which ship has which bonus. the fact of the matter is that most faction battleships can be fit to run decent dps whereas the scorpion can't. and tracking enhancers won't do anything to change that.


Possibly because Pirate BS are meant to be better then Faction BS. CCP has stated this. So this is the reason you should not be comparing the two types. I can fit out a SNI to deal around 980 DPS and this inst enough for you. What is your definition of decent DPS?
octahexx Charante
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3424 - 2012-09-28 15:16:33 UTC  |  Edited by: octahexx Charante
just kill the caldari tree all in all and give me the sp back so i can respec it instead to something usefull,tengu and cerb and anything using hmls will be useless anyway,and to however said fit HAMS on a caracal has obviously never flown one it has the powergrid of a calculator for godssake.

its like ccp has borderline compulsary behaviour you keep buffing things to just smack them down,fw,incursions,up down up down.

how about slowing down and just adjust small at a time and get things actually in balance instead of spastic overreactions.

edit* i think beneath it all you want more battleships on the field for isk sink and you dont care if burn all the bcs in the process.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#3425 - 2012-09-28 15:26:06 UTC
Doddy wrote:
I don't see why you can't understand how you need to balance the weapon systems before the ships that use them. Its the weapon that is broken. If you just nerf the drake everyone will just use something else.


i don't see why you would need to 'balance' HML damage when they are not in direct competition with other weapon systems. no one ever has the choice between fitting HMLs and turrets on the same hull (except maybe some weird loki fits), so there is no reason to change the weapon system at all. just take the ships that fly with HMLs and balance them against the ships that don't. it's even easier than changing both sides of the equation at the same time.
and on top of that, tell me one good reason to nerf all HML platforms, even the weaker ones and then leave them in that sorry state for months or years, before fixing them eventually.

i also strongly disagree with your claim that people would just step down to other HML ships. without the awesome properties of the drakegu, there is hardly any reason to pick missiles over turrets, at least in pvp. the arty sleipnir DESTROYS the nighthawk, and all other hulls are outclassed by the other races' counterparts.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Unit757
North Point
#3426 - 2012-09-28 15:27:12 UTC
Out of everybody arguing to NOT nerf HML's, How many of you have noticed they are taking 20% off HML's VOLLEY damage, NOT their DPS. In reality your only going to be losing +/- 50DPS with good skills.

HML's are LONG RANGED. They will still be more effective then pretty much any other long ranged weapon of the same size.

Pro tip - fit HAM's, enjoy even more DPS, and still out range just about every short ranged medium gun. HML's arnt the ONLY weapon the caldari have, they arn't killing the race, they are bringing it back inline with the rest. Deal with it.
Eckyy
Fourth District Sentinels
The Caldari Fourth District
#3427 - 2012-09-28 15:28:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Eckyy
Bloutok wrote:
Yes, the Caracal is going from bad to bad.......

Is the Caracal the only cruiser getting a buff ?


Lol-fit Caracal you can do post-patch:

[Caracal, 2]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Tracking Enhancer II

Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Tracking Computer II - Missile Flight Time Script
Tracking Computer II - Missile Flight Time Script

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile

Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I


352dps (405dps overheated) with full damage type selection
250km lock range with fleet bonuses
328km theoretical max range

^ This takes into account stacking penalties, and assumes TC's will give a 30% range bonus. Even if it's 15% you can still get the Caracal's missile range past 250km. This does not include the planned HML nerf.

Additionally, if CCP goes through with giving Fury higher DPS and less range, the DPS number will be even higher and you can probably still hit past 250km.

A bad T1 cruiser is one that can lob 350+ DPS out almost 100km past maximum lock range? Granted, this is a comedy fit, but it illustrates that something isn't right.

Maybe velocity and flight time need to be stacked against each other, or maybe nerf heavy missiles. Maybe only give TC's and TE's the ability to modify explosion radius and explosion velocity, and leave range in the realm of rigs only. I'm not sure what the fix is, but something is wrong with missiles when you take a ship that is pretty much in-line with its peers as far as slot layout and bonuses go, and it throws out better numbers than a T2 fit sniper battleship.
Metal Icarus
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#3428 - 2012-09-28 15:29:32 UTC
octahexx Charante wrote:
just kill the caldari tree all in all and give me the sp back so i can respec it instead to something usefull,tengu and cerb and anything using hmls will be useless anyway,and to however said fit HAMS on a caracal has obviously never flown one it has the powergrid of a calculator for godssake.

its like ccp has borderline compulsary behaviour you keep buffing things to just smack them down,fw,incursions,up down up down.

how about slowing down and just adjust small at a time and get things actually in balance instead of spastic overreactions.

edit* i think beneath it all you want more battleships on the field for isk sink and you dont care if burn all the bcs in the process.


Yeah because working with the changes and adapting your fits are way too hard. (cry moar plz)
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#3429 - 2012-09-28 15:32:50 UTC
MIrple wrote:

Possibly because Pirate BS are meant to be better then Faction BS. CCP has stated this. So this is the reason you should not be comparing the two types. I can fit out a SNI to deal around 980 DPS and this inst enough for you. What is your definition of decent DPS?


well no **** sherlock. just because one is better than the other does not mean i can't compare them. also you conveniently skipped my point: most other faction battleships can come close to the mach's dps whereas the scorpion can't, unless you are an EFT warrior and fit something no one would ever use (which apparently you did).

I should buy an Ishtar.
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#3430 - 2012-09-28 15:33:40 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
Doddy wrote:
I don't see why you can't understand how you need to balance the weapon systems before the ships that use them. Its the weapon that is broken. If you just nerf the drake everyone will just use something else.


i don't see why you would need to 'balance' HML damage when they are not in direct competition with other weapon systems. no one ever has the choice between fitting HMLs and turrets on the same hull (except maybe some weird loki fits), so there is no reason to change the weapon system at all. just take the ships that fly with HMLs and balance them against the ships that don't. it's even easier than changing both sides of the equation at the same time.
and on top of that, tell me one good reason to nerf all HML platforms, even the weaker ones and then leave them in that sorry state for months or years, before fixing them eventually.

i also strongly disagree with your claim that people would just step down to other HML ships. without the awesome properties of the drakegu, there is hardly any reason to pick missiles over turrets, at least in pvp. the arty sleipnir DESTROYS the nighthawk, and all other hulls are outclassed by the other races' counterparts.


The Huginn, Lachesis, New Stabber, would like to say differently about not having missile/gun set ups
Eckyy
Fourth District Sentinels
The Caldari Fourth District
#3431 - 2012-09-28 15:36:42 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
Doddy wrote:
I don't see why you can't understand how you need to balance the weapon systems before the ships that use them. Its the weapon that is broken. If you just nerf the drake everyone will just use something else.


i don't see why you would need to 'balance' HML damage when they are not in direct competition with other weapon systems. no one ever has the choice between fitting HMLs and turrets on the same hull (except maybe some weird loki fits), so there is no reason to change the weapon system at all. just take the ships that fly with HMLs and balance them against the ships that don't. it's even easier than changing both sides of the equation at the same time.
and on top of that, tell me one good reason to nerf all HML platforms, even the weaker ones and then leave them in that sorry state for months or years, before fixing them eventually.

i also strongly disagree with your claim that people would just step down to other HML ships. without the awesome properties of the drakegu, there is hardly any reason to pick missiles over turrets, at least in pvp. the arty sleipnir DESTROYS the nighthawk, and all other hulls are outclassed by the other races' counterparts.


What about ships with utility highs and missile hardpoints? The Hurricane, Cyclone, Rupture, Stabber, Bellicose, Moa, Arazu, Huginn, Muninn, Vagabond, Sleipnir, Claymore and Vulture?

The only part of this nerf that concerns me is heavy missiles as a secondary weapon system, it makes it a module you won't even consider tossing in that extra high on your Stabber.
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#3432 - 2012-09-28 15:41:04 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
MIrple wrote:

Possibly because Pirate BS are meant to be better then Faction BS. CCP has stated this. So this is the reason you should not be comparing the two types. I can fit out a SNI to deal around 980 DPS and this inst enough for you. What is your definition of decent DPS?


well no **** sherlock. just because one is better than the other does not mean i can't compare them. also you conveniently skipped my point: most other faction battleships can come close to the mach's dps whereas the scorpion can't, unless you are an EFT warrior and fit something no one would ever use (which apparently you did).


If one ship is better then the other you can compare them just don't be surprised that they weaker ship is still weaker. Now if you compare the Rattlesnake to the Mach I am sure the damage is much closer and this uses missile and drones. If you want to argue that there is a need of a Pirate missile ship I will agree but I don't agree with comparing a Faction battle ship T1 also to a Pirate one that some might say is OP.
Doddy
Excidium.
#3433 - 2012-09-28 15:47:17 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
Doddy wrote:
I don't see why you can't understand how you need to balance the weapon systems before the ships that use them. Its the weapon that is broken. If you just nerf the drake everyone will just use something else.


i don't see why you would need to 'balance' HML damage when they are not in direct competition with other weapon systems. no one ever has the choice between fitting HMLs and turrets on the same hull (except maybe some weird loki fits), so there is no reason to change the weapon system at all. just take the ships that fly with HMLs and balance them against the ships that don't. it's even easier than changing both sides of the equation at the same time.
and on top of that, tell me one good reason to nerf all HML platforms, even the weaker ones and then leave them in that sorry state for months or years, before fixing them eventually.

i also strongly disagree with your claim that people would just step down to other HML ships. without the awesome properties of the drakegu, there is hardly any reason to pick missiles over turrets, at least in pvp. the arty sleipnir DESTROYS the nighthawk, and all other hulls are outclassed by the other races' counterparts.


The arty sleip does not "destroy" the nighthawk, that is a laughable assertion. Flying in drake blobs I always take nighthawk or sleipnir and I would say the NH is generally superior at the moment. These changes might actually make the sleipnir considerably better though, especially as it does not seem to be getting the grid reduction the cane is getting to make up for artys reduced fitting requirements which is an oversight in my book, especially with lol ASBs around.

As for the other hulls you are horribly overgeneralising again. New caracal will be the best long range t1 cruiser hands down, as a tackle/kite only the stabber will be better. Only navy cruiser that is obviously better than navy cara is the stabber, but it has no ranged ability at all, navy vexor isn't really suited for kiting either cos of drone issues. As a long range hac cerb works well, it is just too flimsy for close in work (which missile changes won't effect either way). Sacreleige is awesome, one of my favourite ships and in my book only vaga is a better nano/tackle hac. Bellicose is becoming missile boat, and looks nice for a t1 cruiser.

Also you are the only one saying there wont be any changes for months, my reading of fozzies statements were that nh and cerb could well get a "fix" in the same patch.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#3434 - 2012-09-28 15:49:40 UTC
MIrple wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Doddy wrote:
I don't see why you can't understand how you need to balance the weapon systems before the ships that use them. Its the weapon that is broken. If you just nerf the drake everyone will just use something else.


i don't see why you would need to 'balance' HML damage when they are not in direct competition with other weapon systems. no one ever has the choice between fitting HMLs and turrets on the same hull (except maybe some weird loki fits), so there is no reason to change the weapon system at all. just take the ships that fly with HMLs and balance them against the ships that don't. it's even easier than changing both sides of the equation at the same time.
and on top of that, tell me one good reason to nerf all HML platforms, even the weaker ones and then leave them in that sorry state for months or years, before fixing them eventually.

i also strongly disagree with your claim that people would just step down to other HML ships. without the awesome properties of the drakegu, there is hardly any reason to pick missiles over turrets, at least in pvp. the arty sleipnir DESTROYS the nighthawk, and all other hulls are outclassed by the other races' counterparts.


The Huginn, Lachesis, New Stabber, would like to say differently about not having missile/gun set ups


point taken. i don't care a lot about the stabber or the same reason i don't care about the hurricane, but the other two do have the option to go either way and therefore produce direct competition between missiles and turrets. on the other hand, i am not really concerned about them as their main role is not DPS and they are not as common. no lachesis pilot will shake his fist at the sky and go "DAMN YOU CCP! i wanted to fit turrets but you made HMLS too OP!"

my second point still stands though: if CCP want to make such significant changes to a weapon system that affects so many players an so many months of training time, they should at least get it done quickly instead of leaving us hanging. just nerfing missiles and then counterbuffing the hulls a year later is a no-go.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#3435 - 2012-09-28 15:52:58 UTC
MIrple wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
MIrple wrote:

Possibly because Pirate BS are meant to be better then Faction BS. CCP has stated this. So this is the reason you should not be comparing the two types. I can fit out a SNI to deal around 980 DPS and this inst enough for you. What is your definition of decent DPS?


well no **** sherlock. just because one is better than the other does not mean i can't compare them. also you conveniently skipped my point: most other faction battleships can come close to the mach's dps whereas the scorpion can't, unless you are an EFT warrior and fit something no one would ever use (which apparently you did).


If one ship is better then the other you can compare them just don't be surprised that they weaker ship is still weaker. Now if you compare the Rattlesnake to the Mach I am sure the damage is much closer and this uses missile and drones. If you want to argue that there is a need of a Pirate missile ship I will agree but I don't agree with comparing a Faction battle ship T1 also to a Pirate one that some might say is OP.

again, my actual point was that OTHER faction battleships can very well come close to the machariel's DPS numbers whereas the scorpion is stuck several hundred DPS behind. and yes it DOES have a range advantage, there is just no real place to use that.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#3436 - 2012-09-28 16:04:37 UTC
Doddy wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Doddy wrote:
I don't see why you can't understand how you need to balance the weapon systems before the ships that use them. Its the weapon that is broken. If you just nerf the drake everyone will just use something else.


i don't see why you would need to 'balance' HML damage when they are not in direct competition with other weapon systems. no one ever has the choice between fitting HMLs and turrets on the same hull (except maybe some weird loki fits), so there is no reason to change the weapon system at all. just take the ships that fly with HMLs and balance them against the ships that don't. it's even easier than changing both sides of the equation at the same time.
and on top of that, tell me one good reason to nerf all HML platforms, even the weaker ones and then leave them in that sorry state for months or years, before fixing them eventually.

i also strongly disagree with your claim that people would just step down to other HML ships. without the awesome properties of the drakegu, there is hardly any reason to pick missiles over turrets, at least in pvp. the arty sleipnir DESTROYS the nighthawk, and all other hulls are outclassed by the other races' counterparts.


The arty sleip does not "destroy" the nighthawk, that is a laughable assertion. Flying in drake blobs I always take nighthawk or sleipnir and I would say the NH is generally superior at the moment. These changes might actually make the sleipnir considerably better though, especially as it does not seem to be getting the grid reduction the cane is getting to make up for artys reduced fitting requirements which is an oversight in my book, especially with lol ASBs around.

believe it or not, eve is not all about blob warfare.

Quote:

As for the other hulls you are horribly overgeneralising again. New caracal will be the best long range t1 cruiser hands down, as a tackle/kite only the stabber will be better. Only navy cruiser that is obviously better than navy cara is the stabber, but it has no ranged ability at all, navy vexor isn't really suited for kiting either cos of drone issues. As a long range hac cerb works well, it is just too flimsy for close in work (which missile changes won't effect either way). Sacreleige is awesome, one of my favourite ships and in my book only vaga is a better nano/tackle hac. Bellicose is becoming missile boat, and looks nice for a t1 cruiser.
frankly, i'm not in the mood to adress the ships one by one. let it only be said that most of the ships you named are already barely making it into the middle of the pack and that if they are good, it's often because their role does not rely on good DPS, so they are not that relevant in the current discussion.

Quote:

Also you are the only one saying there wont be any changes for months, my reading of fozzies statements were that nh and cerb could well get a "fix" in the same patch.

the way i understood it is that they will *maybe* have time to look at *some* of the ships. the rest will be floating dead in the water for god knows how long. now if they actually could revisit at least the straight-up dps hulls, i would have less of an issue, although the danger of over-or underbuffing is still there.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Doddy
Excidium.
#3437 - 2012-09-28 16:09:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Doddy
Daniel Plain wrote:

believe it or not, eve is not all about blob warfare.



Believe it or not Blob warfare doesn't have anything to do with it. In a solo situation sleip might be better because of lol ASBs but that is really the only situation the sleipnir is obviously better, and that is down to asbs, not that they are currently easy to fit on an arty sleipnir .....
Doddy
Excidium.
#3438 - 2012-09-28 16:17:18 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:

the way i understood it is that they will *maybe* have time to look at *some* of the ships. the rest will be floating dead in the water for god knows how long. now if they actually could revisit at least the straight-up dps hulls, i would have less of an issue, although the danger of over-or underbuffing is still there.


Well, how many other hulls are there? Bellicose, Caracal, Nighthawk, Cerb being looked at leaves navy caracal and navy osprey. Osprey is already broken like the other "tier 1" faction cruisers so nothing will really change there till they get thier own tiericide, navy cara too. Faction cruisers are going to need some love regardless thanks to the buffs to thier t1 cousins.

Which to be honest just shows you how under provided missile boats are.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#3439 - 2012-09-28 16:25:45 UTC
Doddy wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:

believe it or not, eve is not all about blob warfare.



Believe it or not Blob warfare doesn't have anything to do with it. In a solo situation sleip might be better because of lol ASBs but that is really the only situation the sleipnir is obviously better, and that is down to asbs, not that they are currently easy to fit on an arty sleipnir .....

two things:
1. as long as ASBs are the way they are, the sleipnir is better period.
2. even without ASBs, the sleipnir is a lot more versatile than the nighthawk and birngs many advantages to compensate for its only real disadvantage (projection).

I should buy an Ishtar.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#3440 - 2012-09-28 16:29:46 UTC
Eckyy wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Doddy wrote:
I don't see why you can't understand how you need to balance the weapon systems before the ships that use them. Its the weapon that is broken. If you just nerf the drake everyone will just use something else.


i don't see why you would need to 'balance' HML damage when they are not in direct competition with other weapon systems. no one ever has the choice between fitting HMLs and turrets on the same hull (except maybe some weird loki fits), so there is no reason to change the weapon system at all. just take the ships that fly with HMLs and balance them against the ships that don't. it's even easier than changing both sides of the equation at the same time.
and on top of that, tell me one good reason to nerf all HML platforms, even the weaker ones and then leave them in that sorry state for months or years, before fixing them eventually.

i also strongly disagree with your claim that people would just step down to other HML ships. without the awesome properties of the drakegu, there is hardly any reason to pick missiles over turrets, at least in pvp. the arty sleipnir DESTROYS the nighthawk, and all other hulls are outclassed by the other races' counterparts.


What about ships with utility highs and missile hardpoints? The Hurricane, Cyclone, Rupture, Stabber, Bellicose, Moa, Arazu, Huginn, Muninn, Vagabond, Sleipnir, Claymore and Vulture?

The only part of this nerf that concerns me is heavy missiles as a secondary weapon system, it makes it a module you won't even consider tossing in that extra high on your Stabber.


see the good side: if the tracking madness goes through, at least your tracking enhancers will affect your missiles.

I should buy an Ishtar.