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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Retardo Khaan
Slow Motion.
#3301 - 2012-09-28 05:57:04 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
serras bang wrote:
seriously raven and navy raven being viable ? even with 2 bill of ship and navy/DED mods the cnr or raven is nowere near good enough for lvl 4's even with a full rack of med drones and t1 ammo due to explosive radius the raven is barely over 700 dps (with implants)


700 dps is around minimum for level 4s, true. But for example my NApoc does 700+ dps with Scorch and I don't really have problems in missions.

.


You cannot compare lasors to cruise missiles. You just cant. Because lasors are 10 times better.Try to shoot low sig faction cruiser with cruise missiles and you know why.

For example lvl4 buzzkill mission with cnr. And you know why. But guess its easy to talk when you never tried to use cruise raven yourself.
Rokokoko
Quality Insanity
#3302 - 2012-09-28 06:16:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Rokokoko
Eckyy wrote:
Lol-fit Caracal you can do post-patch:

[Caracal, 2]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Tracking Enhancer II

Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Tracking Computer II - Missile Flight Time Script
Tracking Computer II - Missile Flight Time Script

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile

Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I


352dps (405dps overheated) with full damage type selection
250km lock range with fleet bonuses
328km theoretical max range

^ This takes into account stacking penalties, and assumes TC's will give a 30% range bonus. Even if it's 15% you can still do ridiculous things with the Caracal.

Additionally, if CCP goes through with giving Fury higher DPS and less range, the DPS number will be even higher and you can probably still hit past 250km.


Eckyy I think you forgot to include the 20% damage nerf, The number I have for 3 BCU and 5 launchers 281. Unless i really screwed up in evehq configuring the ship. Its still alot better then any other medium long range weapon though.
Retardo Khaan
Slow Motion.
#3303 - 2012-09-28 06:21:20 UTC
Tover Chris wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

-Make TDs affect Missiles
Tracking speed disruption script lowers explosion velocity and explosion radius
Optimal range disruption script lowers flight time



Hello Drake, this is Pilgrim. It's about time we met.


No sry were not gonna meet cause i allready sold all my drakes.
Eckyy
Fourth District Sentinels
The Caldari Fourth District
#3304 - 2012-09-28 06:23:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Eckyy
Rokokoko wrote:
Eckyy wrote:
Lol-fit Caracal you can do post-patch:

[Caracal, 2]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Tracking Enhancer II

Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Tracking Computer II - Missile Flight Time Script
Tracking Computer II - Missile Flight Time Script

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile

Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I


352dps (405dps overheated) with full damage type selection
250km lock range with fleet bonuses
328km theoretical max range

^ This takes into account stacking penalties, and assumes TC's will give a 30% range bonus. Even if it's 15% you can still do ridiculous things with the Caracal.

Additionally, if CCP goes through with giving Fury higher DPS and less range, the DPS number will be even higher and you can probably still hit past 250km.


Eckyy I think you forgot to include the 20% damage nerf, The number I have for 3 BCU and 5 launchers 281. Unless i really screwed up in evehq configuring the ship. Its still alot better then any other medium long range weapon though.

I just want to pi


I did so intentionally, it illustrates why SOMETHING needs to be done about HML's.

Eckyy wrote:
In answer to my own question, these are two competitors to the New Caracal without the heavy missile nerf:


^ Granted, it was in the following post.
Rokokoko
Quality Insanity
#3305 - 2012-09-28 06:35:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Rokokoko
You did elude to that in post before the Fit but i just missed that anyways.

I need to say I am quite doubtful that TEs and TCs will give a full 30% bonus to range. Either way you can easily shoot out to 150km+ since just rigs and ship bonuses get you to 130 ( I do not know how to configure Evehq modules).
Retardo Khaan
Slow Motion.
#3306 - 2012-09-28 06:37:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Retardo Khaan
NiGhTTraX wrote:
The current Drake with 7x T2 HML launchers and 2x T2 BCU, firing T1 Scourge Heavy Missiles outputs 321 DPS.
With 7x T2 HAM launchers and 2x T2 BCU, firing Scourge outputs 401 DPS.

The Hurricane with 6x T2 720mm Artys and 2x T2 Gyrostabs with EMP outputs 371 DPS.
The Hurricane with 6x T2 425mm Autocannons and 2x T2 Gyrostabs with EMP outputs 477 DPS.

The new Drake will only have 0.8 x 321 = 257 DPS at a 25% lower range or 320 DPS with HAMs. It becomes the shittiest battlecruiser in terms of DPS. And if you nerf it further by reducing its tank, well....

Oh and now they can be tracking disrupted? So let me get this straight. Missiles will loose some of their range, will have the lowest DPS among weapons, they have flight time and they will also be tracking disrupted? And their only advantage will remain the ability to choose damage types? (which no one does because of the kinetic bonus on Caldari hulls) Did I mention that missiles can be smartbombed or taken out with defenders? Goodbye solo missile platforms!

CCP Frozie wrote:
The upshot is that fitting a full rack of 720s with a MWD and LSE and full mids and lows will require a RCUII and either an ACR or PG implant. Also fitting a standard shield autocane with neuts and LSE will require dropping a few guns down to 220mm.


No other high tier battlecruiser requires implants or gun downgrading to fulfill its intended purpose. These decisions seem terrible on paper imho.

TDs will be the new and improved ECM. At least with ECM you're taking the risk of bringing the wrong jammer. If TD effects will apply to everything there's absolutely no reason to not bring one.


Is it fair that AC cane does 600dps while HAM drake does only around 450dps.. Why not nerf AC dmg by 20%. Also medium lasors should be nerfed as legion dominates NCO's too much.

And btw HAM drake can only fit 2 bcu because it will run out of cpu. Not to mention if you fit 1 TE its going to be only 1 bcu which lowers dps even more. While cane can easily fit 4 gyros and use barrage.
Rokokoko
Quality Insanity
#3307 - 2012-09-28 06:43:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Rokokoko
Ham drakes actually do around 500 dps using Faction ammo. The dps for the two (using 3 gyros 2 tes on the Hurricane 3 BCUs on the drake) equals out at around 10km.

-Edit-
Some other numbers since i didnt compare everything you listed. With 2 BCU a drake does 450 dps which is less then barrage with 4 gyros out to 12km which the drake then beats the hurricane until you hit max range.
Eckyy
Fourth District Sentinels
The Caldari Fourth District
#3308 - 2012-09-28 06:54:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Eckyy
If you want to just fit one LSE + 2 Invul on a HAM Drake you can actually get 3 BCUs on it with room to spare. This brings the missile-only paper DPS with faction ammo up to 519, and Rage DPS up to 578dps. Overheating brings it up to 680. Factor in a flight of light drones and you're at 779 (paper) DPS burst, though your tank drops to a measly 75,000 EHP (with MWD + point + painter). That's around 50% higher than the Hurricane's.

578DPS to the Hurricane's 617, with 50% more tank. The Drake has a painter, the 'Cane has a 2nd neut. The Hurricane will have an easier time applying its full damage to cruiser and smaller targets.
Retardo Khaan
Slow Motion.
#3309 - 2012-09-28 06:57:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Retardo Khaan
Rokokoko wrote:
Ham drakes actually do around 500 dps using Faction ammo. The dps for the two (using 3 gyros 2 tes on the Hurricane 3 BCUs on the drake) equals out at around 10km.



You cannot use 3 bcus in HAM drake. It will run out of cpu. As i said its either 2 bcus or 1 bcu and 1 TE for HAM drake. And again cane can use 4 gyro and 1 TE. I know because thats how my cane is fitted. Also i know because i got HAM drake with lvl5 fitting skills.

Actually you might need PDS aswell to fit LSE with HAM's and MWD.. So it will take 1 low slots away.
Eckyy
Fourth District Sentinels
The Caldari Fourth District
#3310 - 2012-09-28 06:59:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Eckyy
Retardo Khaan wrote:
Rokokoko wrote:
Ham drakes actually do around 500 dps using Faction ammo. The dps for the two (using 3 gyros 2 tes on the Hurricane 3 BCUs on the drake) equals out at around 10km.



You cannot use 3 bcus in HAM drake. It will run out of cpu. As i said its either 2 bcus or 1 bcu and 1 TE for HAM drake. And again cane can use 4 gyro and 1 TE. I know because thats how my cane is fitted. Also i know because i got HAM drake with lvl5 fitting skills.


[Drake, HAM2]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Large Shield Extender II
Faint Warp Disruptor I
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


Fits without implants. Use a named suitcase if you want a T2 point.

EDIT: Personally I'd go with 3/2 on the Hurricane as I think it would put out more real-world DPS.
Retardo Khaan
Slow Motion.
#3311 - 2012-09-28 07:01:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Retardo Khaan
Eckyy wrote:
Retardo Khaan wrote:
Rokokoko wrote:
Ham drakes actually do around 500 dps using Faction ammo. The dps for the two (using 3 gyros 2 tes on the Hurricane 3 BCUs on the drake) equals out at around 10km.



You cannot use 3 bcus in HAM drake. It will run out of cpu. As i said its either 2 bcus or 1 bcu and 1 TE for HAM drake. And again cane can use 4 gyro and 1 TE. I know because thats how my cane is fitted. Also i know because i got HAM drake with lvl5 fitting skills.


[Drake, HAM2]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Large Shield Extender II
Faint Warp Disruptor I
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


Fits without fitting mods. Use a named suitcase if you want a T2 point.


Oh yea you can with ancillary current router but its cheating. Does cane have to fit ancillary current router to fit AC's?

And T1 DCU or T1 point is no option. Also AC cane be fitted without having to use T1 modules and still it can fit 4 gyros.
Eckyy
Fourth District Sentinels
The Caldari Fourth District
#3312 - 2012-09-28 07:05:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Eckyy
Retardo Khaan wrote:
Oh yea you can with ancillary current router but its cheating. Does cane have to fit ancillary current router to fit AC's?

And T1 DCU or T1 point is no option.


I edited my post to say "Implants", it's what I intended to say. Why is a T1 suitcase not an option? You absolutely can't bear to trade 800 EHP for 64 DPS?

How about this:

[Drake, HAM2]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


It has 63,000 EHP to the Hurricane's 50,800 (25% higher), has a T2 point, dual painters and a T2 suitcase. Additionally you can overheat your tank. The difference in paper DPS between the two is 6.7%.

EDIT: If the Hurricane drops to 220mm autocannons (due to grid nerf) it loses around 6% of its DPS.
Retardo Khaan
Slow Motion.
#3313 - 2012-09-28 07:15:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Retardo Khaan
Eckyy wrote:
Retardo Khaan wrote:
Oh yea you can with ancillary current router but its cheating. Does cane have to fit ancillary current router to fit AC's?

And T1 DCU or T1 point is no option.


I edited my post to say "Implants", it's what I intended to say. Why is a T1 suitcase not an option? You absolutely can't bear to trade 800 EHP for 64 DPS?

How about this:

[Drake, HAM2]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


It has 63,000 EHP to the Hurricane's 50,800 (25% higher), has a T2 point, dual painters and a T2 suitcase. Additionally you can overheat your tank. The difference in paper DPS between the two is 6.7%.

EDIT: If the Hurricane drops to 220mm autocannons (due to grid nerf) it loses around 6% of its DPS.


But cane doesnt need 220's if cane fits small neuts instead mediums. Just like that drake has small neut. I wonder how you would fit that drake with medium neut...

Also your talking about EHP without mentiniong that cane is much more faster ship. Like if you would compare raven to vagabond...
Eckyy
Fourth District Sentinels
The Caldari Fourth District
#3314 - 2012-09-28 07:16:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Eckyy
Retardo Khaan wrote:
But cane doesnt need 220's if cane fits small neuts instead mediums. Just like that drake has small neut. I wonder how you would fit that drake with medium neut...


I wonder how you would fit a 'Cane with dual painters and 25% more tank without dropping below the Drake's DPS...

So to keep its 6% DPS advantage, it has to use 2 small neuts vs the Drake's 1 small neut, has 20% less tank and lacks the 2 ewar mods the Drake can fit. Excellent.
Retardo Khaan
Slow Motion.
#3315 - 2012-09-28 07:20:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Retardo Khaan
Eckyy wrote:
Retardo Khaan wrote:
But cane doesnt need 220's if cane fits small neuts instead mediums. Just like that drake has small neut. I wonder how you would fit that drake with medium neut...


I wonder how you would fir a 'Cane with dual painters and 25% more tank without dropping below the Drake's DPS...

So to keep its 6% DPS advantage, it has to use 2 small neuts vs the Drake's 1 small neut, has 20% less tank and lacks the 2 ewar mods the Drake can fit. Excellent.


Eh why would cane need painters? i dont see any reason for that. But missile boats really need painter not dual tho id rather put web and scram. Well actually they really doesnt need it i dont usually use TP on drake. But it still helps drake more than cane.

I added this part to my last post.

Also your talking about EHP without mentiniong that cane is much more faster ship. Like if you would compare raven to vagabond...

Alltho i would buy it if canes CPU get nerfed so it could only fit 2 gyros and no TE's.
Eckyy
Fourth District Sentinels
The Caldari Fourth District
#3316 - 2012-09-28 07:25:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Eckyy
Retardo Khaan wrote:


Eh why would cane need painters? i dont see any reason for that. But missile boats really need painter not dual tho id rather put web and scram.

I added this part to my last post.

Also your talking about EHP without mentiniong that cane is much more faster ship. Like if you would compare raven to vagabond...


Woohoo, the Hurricane can do 1300m/s and the Drake can only do 1040! That's really going to change the game.

The Drake is more agile.

As for the painters, what if it's not a 1v1 scenario? What if these ships are actually in a fleet? The Drake brings more utility in that case. You could easily swap out one or both painters for tracking disruptors or extra points.

____

I'm not trying to make a case for the HAM Drake's absolute superiority, but it's AT LEAST competitive. There's nothing at all wrong with it.
Retardo Khaan
Slow Motion.
#3317 - 2012-09-28 07:33:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Retardo Khaan
Eckyy wrote:
Retardo Khaan wrote:


Eh why would cane need painters? i dont see any reason for that. But missile boats really need painter not dual tho id rather put web and scram.

I added this part to my last post.

Also your talking about EHP without mentiniong that cane is much more faster ship. Like if you would compare raven to vagabond...


Woohoo, the Hurricane can do 1300m/s and the Drake can only do 1040! That's really going to change the game.

The Drake is more agile.

As for the painters, what if it's not a 1v1 scenario? What if these ships are actually in a fleet? The Drake brings more utility in that case. You could easily swap out one or both painters for tracking disruptors or extra points.

____

I'm not trying to make a case for the HAM Drake's absolute superiority, but it's AT LEAST competitive. There's nothing at all wrong with it.


Well i think cane is OP compared to HAM drake. See the difference yourself fit HAM drake with 2 BCU and T2 missiles then fit AC cane with 4 gyros and hail. Thats the difference. Yes drake has bit more tank but cane has speed.

I am minnie/caldari pilot btw. so i fly canes and drakes.. So would i want cane to get nerfed even more. No i wouldnt but in means of balancing cane needs to be nerfed more. Maybe by dropping its cpu so it cant fit so many gyros...
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#3318 - 2012-09-28 07:37:58 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
serras bang wrote:
seriously raven and navy raven being viable ? even with 2 bill of ship and navy/DED mods the cnr or raven is nowere near good enough for lvl 4's even with a full rack of med drones and t1 ammo due to explosive radius the raven is barely over 700 dps (with implants)


700 dps is around minimum for level 4s, true.



lolwut? L4 are plenty doable with <700 DPS.

It's hardly an entry level requirement.



However, I'm not convinced that many who cite fury cruises in DPS specs have actually ever tried to apply that damage. Perhaps if shooting a glacier/small moon; or the bird has so many target painters it looks like a light show and only the SNI can manage that without sacrificing its tank.

With all level V and 2x rigor I and 1x flare I (couldnt be bothered swapping out, sue me) a fury cruise has a radius of 300 and a speed of 100.

What confuses me is why Heavy fury has a higher explosion speed than regular....why is that?
Eckyy
Fourth District Sentinels
The Caldari Fourth District
#3319 - 2012-09-28 07:51:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Eckyy
Retardo Khaan wrote:
Well i think cane is OP compared to HAM drake. See the difference yourself fit HAM drake with 2 BCU and T2 missiles then fit AC cane with 4 gyros and hail. Thats the difference. Yes drake has bit more tank but cane has speed.

I am minnie/caldari pilot btw. so i fly canes and drakes.. So would i want cane to get nerfed even more. No i wouldnt but in means of balancing cane needs to be nerfed more. Maybe by dropping its cpu so it cant fit so many gyros...


Why not just compare to a Drake with 0 BCUs and no tank? Roll

Summary:

The Drake CAN in fact fit 3 BCUs (without expensive meta4 mods!), which means...

The Drake does approximately 6% less DPS than the Hurricane and it can do it while sporting 25% more tank than a Hurricane.

The Drake can fit 2 additional midslot ewar mods over the Hurricane, at the expense of one small neut (post-nerf).

The Drake is slower, but is more agile and harder to jam.

The Drake can overheat its tank.



Why do you suggest an unreasonably poor fitting to compare with a 4 gyro (lol) Hurricane? I fail to see how the Hurricane is "OP" compared to the Drake. Should the Drake have higher DPS than the Hurricane while also sporting all of its current advantages?
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3320 - 2012-09-28 08:00:07 UTC
Retardo Khaan wrote:
You cannot compare lasors to cruise missiles. You just cant. Because lasors are 10 times better.Try to shoot low sig faction cruiser with cruise missiles and you know why.

For example lvl4 buzzkill mission with cnr. And you know why. But guess its easy to talk when you never tried to use cruise raven yourself.


True, I don't have skills to fly torp/cruise Raven but that's only because I thought I finish my failure before I start training better weapons (meaning I will finish gunnery training first for all sub-cap turrets).

But here's video of Raven, Drake, Myrm doing that mission.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TD4GFjLYdP8