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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak First post First post First post
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Garviel Tarrant

Beyond Divinity Inc

Shadow Cartel

Likes received: 2,240

#3281 - 2012-09-27 23:23:18 UTC

Ok one thing

How good HML's are and how **** other caldari ships are, are completely different topics.

Even if every ******* ship in the caldari line was **** other than the drake, That still does not mean HML's shouldn't be nerfed. Ships being **** does not justify a weapon system being OP. It just means that the other ships need to be looked at and re-balanced..

Now if only there was some plan in motion to re-balance ships.........

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

HELLBOUNDMAN

Aliastra

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 238

#3282 - 2012-09-27 23:33:46 UTC

Daichi Yamato wrote:

to whoever said that nerfing heavy missiles would be like taking 25mb bandwidth from the domi, u are a nit wit?
are u even remotely suggesting that drones are overpowered? and no one is taking launcher slots away from any missile boats are they?
surely a less ignorant argument would be to suggest how drone pilots would react if drones had their RoF increased from 4 secs to 5 secs. even if that did happen, i doubt they'd react like this and start comparing sentry damage to AC's and blasters.

dear lord

P.S. when was the last time u saw a missile ship use turrets as a secondary weapon system. gotta love those caracals and ravens fit with rails eh?...oh

You took that comment completely out of context.
If you know you did, then thats crap.
If you didnt realize u did, then read better.

I was not speaking of how are drones are overpowered.
I was instead using it as an example.
Basically I was stating that if drones were taken away from the Dominix, and there was no other drone boat in game capable of running level 4 missions with the same effectiveness as the dominix, then there would be a lot of upset drone pilots.

This is the way i feel about losing the tengu's effectiveness without having anything to replace it.

HELLBOUNDMAN

Aliastra

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 238

#3283 - 2012-09-27 23:39:28 UTC

Garviel Tarrant wrote:

We understand this. However, with this nerf we're losing all effectiveness before we get anything back especially in pve.

I'm not trying to stop the nerf, but simply have it postponed until I can have something fill that void of efficiency in pve.

Sigras

Conglomo

Likes received: 1,109

#3284 - 2012-09-28 00:22:46 UTC

Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:

Sigras wrote:

I understand the difference between transversal and angular velocity, but transverse velocity is what the use in the tracking formula which is why i used it in my calculations

'Transverse' in that formula is angular (the value displayed in your overview, if you enable it), unless the 'tracking' in that formula is something other than the tracking value given for turrets right now.

Sorry, this is the formula i used, and from that page

"Transversal speed" is the absolute speed (in meters/second) at which you and your target are moving away from eachother in a plane perpendicular on the line joining your ship center to the center of the target. Two ships chasing eachother in a straight line or heading straigth at eachother would have this number be zero. The smaller this number, the better your chance to hit will be.

so picture a right triangle with vectors, your direction of travel is the hypotenuse, a line straight from your ship to the enemy ship is one leg, and a line perpendicular to that line connecting with the hypotenuse is the other leg.

Since we know the angle between angle between the hypotenuse and the leg pointing at the enemy ship, we can use sine which is the opposite leg over the hypotenuse

since the sine is of 15 is 0.258819 then we know that .258819 * Hyoptenuse = TransverseVelocity

Since we know the Hypotenuse is your speed (5,537 m/s) we can calculate the transverse velocity.

.258819 * 5,537 = 1,433.081 m/s

Sigras

Conglomo

Likes received: 1,109

#3285 - 2012-09-28 00:27:12 UTC

HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:

Garviel Tarrant wrote:

Ive already explained why that is impractical

The problem is that either way you do it, someone is left out in the cold for a while.

If they nerf the missiles now, and balance the ships later people will be left out because theyre waiting on all the ships to get adjusted to the new missile stats

if they nerf the ships now and adjust the missiles later, people will be left out because now theyre waiting on the missiles to get adjusted to the new lowered ship stats

if they change both at the same time, theyre simultaneously changing two variables in a function simultaneously . . . this is how horrific changes and unexpected interactions happen.

TL;DR
Any way you do it, someone gets screwed.

Bouh Revetoile

In Wreck we thrust

Likes received: 554

#3286 - 2012-09-28 00:36:37 UTC

HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:

So why didn't you read all the OP ? These changes to missiles are an unbelievable buff ! Your cruise/torp will now have a great damage application ! You will be able to fly a very effective missile BS for pve ! Infact, Golem might become one of the best pve ship ever...

HELLBOUNDMAN

Aliastra

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 238

#3287 - 2012-09-28 00:57:25 UTC | Edited by: HELLBOUNDMAN

Bouh Revetoile wrote:

HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:

Uhh... last time I checked it showed that fury/rage would be getting a slight damage buff, however they're also getting an increase in explosion radius. Basically the nerf to exp radius negates any benefit you would get from added damage.

So, cruise/torp are either in the same boat, or they're worse off.

Oh, and increased damage doesn't help the effectiveness of the ships themselves. The raven will still suck

Doddy

Excidium.

Likes received: 966

#3288 - 2012-09-28 01:03:12 UTC

HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:

Bouh Revetoile wrote:

HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:

Tracking mods. In pvp they will most likely be countered by everyone having tds but in pve they will be a very nice help for torps. They will at least counter the exp radius change, probably more, and increase range at the same time.

Doddy

Excidium.

Likes received: 966

#3289 - 2012-09-28 01:06:44 UTC

HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:

Bouh Revetoile wrote:

HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:

Its funny that everyone used ravens before the tengu was released,

Unit757

North Point

Likes received: 68

#3290 - 2012-09-28 01:53:04 UTC

HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:

Bouh Revetoile wrote:

HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:

Over 160 pages, and you still don't get it? They are bringing a medium sized long range weapon back in line with other medium long ranged weapons. Frozzie gave you the reason why they were the way they were, and why its changing.

And seriously? Losing all effectiveness? Your acting like HML's are the ONLY weapon system in the game. HAM's do better DPS, AND have more range then pretty much EVERY short ranged cruiser weapon. Hurricanes fight in falloff, were they lose way more then 25% of their on paper DPS, do you see them complaining? Not about that, nope.

And pve? Are you dense? NPC's die if something sneezes on them.

A 20% loss on HML damage (NOT DPS) isn't going to be that bad. Im losing 50 or so DPS off my drake. 50 DPS. Big. *******. Deal.

The Destiny Logistics. 115
Enslaved Mistress The Destiny Logistics. Likes received: 115	#3291 - 2012-09-28 02:09:57 UTC I thought I remembered reading something about HAMs, or dumb missiles getting a buff for smaller ships, or fast ships or something. did I see that or am I loosing it? haha

HELLBOUNDMAN

Aliastra

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 238

#3292 - 2012-09-28 02:25:32 UTC

Doddy wrote:

HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:

Bouh Revetoile wrote:

HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:

Its funny that everyone used ravens before the tengu was released,

We did, but at least in my case that was because I didn't realize how bad it sucked until I flew the scorpion navy, which wasn't that grand either.

Enslaved Mistress

The Destiny Logistics.

Likes received: 115

#3293 - 2012-09-28 02:26:48 UTC | Edited by: Enslaved Mistress

And the DPS I kinda understand, -20% is a bit much though I think. -25% range though, that doesn't make since, if it's a long range weapon. The Tracking disr doesn't make since either. If you fire missiles and get ECMed or blown up before your missiles hit they will still hit, so tracking disr shouldn't work on missiles. And kinda funny you'd change that but not have it work on the other weapon type drones. Just please stop trying to make all the weapon types the same please. Thank you :^)

Eckyy

Fourth District Sentinels

The Caldari Fourth District

Likes received: 44

#3294 - 2012-09-28 02:35:26 UTC

Sigras wrote:

"Transversal speed" is the absolute speed (in meters/second) at which you and your target are moving away from eachother in a plane perpendicular on the line joining your ship center to the center of the target. Two ships chasing eachother in a straight line or heading straigth at eachother would have this number be zero. The smaller this number, the better your chance to hit will be.

While I'm sure you understand this, I'm posting it for the benefit of others reading the thread.

Transversal does not take into account distance, it's simply perpendicular velocity. In order to have any kind of meaningful understanding of a situation using transversal, you must also take into account a target's distance.

Angular velocity is what you get when you take transversal and combine it with distance. A target at 10km moving at 400m/s will have the same angular velocity as a target at 100km moving at 4000m/s in the same relative direction. Using transversal, all you would see is "Target B's transversal is 10x as high!" while in reality they're both equally difficult to track. Angular velocity on the other hand would show them as both being equally difficult to track.


Enslaved Mistress The Destiny Logistics. Likes received: 115	#3295 - 2012-09-28 02:41:08 UTC HAMs anyone, I could have swore, hmmm

Eckyy

Fourth District Sentinels

The Caldari Fourth District

Likes received: 44

#3296 - 2012-09-28 02:46:50 UTC | Edited by: Eckyy

I was doing some further thinking on the topic, and am pondering now that maybe the heavy missile nerf has little to do with the Tengu and Drake. What if CCP feels that, in order to get a T1 cruiser such as a Caracal to perform sufficiently well with HAMs, they would make said cruiser too powerful with heavies? Consider the sheer awesomeness of a Caracal with 4 lowslots and a RoF bonus instead of kinetic, with heavy missiles unchanged. You have a T1 Cruiser that can lob 350+DPS (without implants) out to to a theoretical maximum distance of over 300km (with T1 rigs) - and actually lock out to 250km with fleet bonuses!

Giving missiles a range-increasing module is incredibly powerful. The problem lies in the 50% bonus to velocity, and the fact that you can increase missile range both by flight time and velocity without stacking on each other.

Eckyy

Fourth District Sentinels

The Caldari Fourth District

Likes received: 44

#3297 - 2012-09-28 02:55:03 UTC | Edited by: Eckyy

Lol-fit Caracal you can do post-patch:

[Caracal, 2]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Tracking Enhancer II

Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Tracking Computer II - Missile Flight Time Script
Tracking Computer II - Missile Flight Time Script

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile

Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I

352dps (405dps overheated) with full damage type selection
250km lock range with fleet bonuses
328km theoretical max range

^ This takes into account stacking penalties, and assumes TC's will give a 30% range bonus. Even if it's 15% you can still do ridiculous things with the Caracal.

Additionally, if CCP goes through with giving Fury higher DPS and less range, the DPS number will be even higher and you can probably still hit past 250km.

Enslaved Mistress

The Destiny Logistics.

Likes received: 115

#3298 - 2012-09-28 02:59:44 UTC | Edited by: Enslaved Mistress

One issue there, if you are shooting 250km, it will take over 20secs for your missiles to hit target, that is more then enough time for your target to warp. Better to use a rail boat or something. Cerbs were already able to do that, it isn't really the best idea, a lot of the time your target has warped off is already dead before your first missiles make contact haha.

Eckyy

Fourth District Sentinels

The Caldari Fourth District

Likes received: 44

#3299 - 2012-09-28 03:31:54 UTC

Enslaved Mistress wrote:

How many seconds does it take an Omen or Thorax to hit for 350dps at 250km?

Eckyy

Fourth District Sentinels

The Caldari Fourth District

Likes received: 44

#3300 - 2012-09-28 04:37:11 UTC

Eckyy wrote:

[Caracal, 2]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Tracking Enhancer II

Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Tracking Computer II - Missile Flight Time Script
Tracking Computer II - Missile Flight Time Script

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile

Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I

352dps (405dps overheated) with full damage type selection
250km lock range with fleet bonuses
328km theoretical max range

In answer to my own question, these are two competitors to the New Caracal without the heavy missile nerf:

[Thorax, 1]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script

250mm Railgun II, Spike M
250mm Railgun II, Spike M
250mm Railgun II, Spike M
250mm Railgun II, Spike M
250mm Railgun II, Spike M

Medium Hybrid Locus Coordinator II
Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Hybrid Locus Coordinator II

207dps (243dps overheated)
105+29km
250km lock range w/fleet bonuses

^ It's basically impossible to stretch the range of the Thorax any further, every mod on the ship is stacking penalized to hell and back. Adding a 4th magstab only adds 12dps. The Caracal does 70% more dps at more than twice the range. Another way of looking at it is, the Thorax can only manage 59% of the Caracal's DPS with only 40% of the range (and I'm counting optimal + falloff).

This is the current Moa:

[Moa, 1]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script

250mm Railgun II, Spike M
250mm Railgun II, Spike M
250mm Railgun II, Spike M
250mm Railgun II, Spike M
250mm Railgun II, Spike M
[empty high slot]

Medium Hybrid Locus Coordinator II
Medium Hybrid Locus Coordinator II
Medium Ancillary Current Router I

175dps (195dps overheated)
157+29km
250km lock range w/fleet bonuses

Undoubtedly the Moa will get some kind of buff, but as it stands, the new Caracal can do 101% more dps (that's 2.01x) the Moa's DPS at 82% more range. Even if the Moa gets a 25% damage buff (giving it 5 turrets with +50% optimal and +25% damage), the new Caracal still does 60% more DPS at 82% more range.

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