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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3161 - 2012-09-26 20:45:11 UTC
Lallante wrote:


Lets say GSF did as above, killed 100 with 70 drakes per kill and score 7000 kills for drakes
Imagine a 120 man thorax gang (or whatever) gang getting 100 kills themselves with an average of 7 ships on each kill - this scores 700 kills for thoraxes.

There are exactly 10 times more drakes being flown than thoraxes, and they get exactly 10 times the score - the score still perfectly represents their relative use in PvP.



No not really It means you have no idea what the number actually represents.

Look at the rest of the top 20.

Now why where there be such a precipitous drop. Zealots? GTFO you are telling me there are better then TWO TIMES as many people running around in Zealots as there are in Hurricanes?

.....and I'm not thinking it through?
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#3162 - 2012-09-26 20:46:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Lallante wrote:


There are exactly 10 times more drakes being flown than thoraxes, and they get exactly 10 times the score - the score still perfectly represents their relative use in PvP.


They are used excessively in null sec. No one denied that fact. Nice you seem to at least see you cant keep up with that lie about the Drake being OP anywhere else than in null sec.

Still the "overuse" of the Drake would be reduced IMO if there were other platforms for caldari missile users. As long as there are none you will see more Drakes than for example Harbingers, where Amarr pilots have many ships to choose from. Simple as that ...


Wtf. Drake not overused everywhere. Drake is no go-to-pvp-ship? drake is not a decent mission running ship?
srsly, when each and every wh-corp got 20 corp-DRAKES as pve-pvp-universal-vessel... it's not OP?

even worse, there are two fits used, one for everything pve/pvp and another one for baiting (or C3 sites). both carry HMLs.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#3163 - 2012-09-26 20:47:19 UTC
Onictus wrote:


Really? You do know you need Sebo(s) to get a cane to hit 100km, two of them, plus a tracking computer and a MWD...where does the tank go on? Because you can't armor tank and fit a rack of 720s, you need an ACR with a shield tank just to get them to fit.


There is no need for 100km range, coz first the Drake will need a Sebo too to hit on more than 75 km, but wont go that much further anyway coz missiles run out way before the 84km mark. For 90km locking the Cane needs only 1 Sebo too. So I dont see how there is no tank at all ..

Onictus wrote:

Congrats, you just built a Cane that would lose a fight to a nub ship.

Same with a bringer, ever try to fit a rack of heavy beams on one? Yeah, what tank. So you just traded 30k ehp to do 300dps, you now have a real real real slow and real real real real long ranged assault frigate.


I didnt say those fittings are viable per se, but I said the numbers which this other guy posted say nothing at all. You will most probably agree with me that in turret ships its quite often possible to fit in a TC and/or TE in viable fittings. And I hope you agree with me too, that a PvP Cane is not by default worse than a PvP Drake ... do you? :-)
Lallante
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#3164 - 2012-09-26 20:47:20 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:


Still the "overuse" of the Drake would be reduced IMO if there were other platforms for caldari missile users. As long as there are none you will see more Drakes than for example Harbingers, where Amarr pilots have many ships to choose from. Simple as that ...


So you keep saying. This isnt an argument against balancing the drake, its an argument for balancing the other platforms!
Lallante
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#3165 - 2012-09-26 20:48:18 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Lallante wrote:


Lets say GSF did as above, killed 100 with 70 drakes per kill and score 7000 kills for drakes
Imagine a 120 man thorax gang (or whatever) gang getting 100 kills themselves with an average of 7 ships on each kill - this scores 700 kills for thoraxes.

There are exactly 10 times more drakes being flown than thoraxes, and they get exactly 10 times the score - the score still perfectly represents their relative use in PvP.



No not really It means you have no idea what the number actually represents.

Look at the rest of the top 20.

Now why where there be such a precipitous drop. Zealots? GTFO you are telling me there are better then TWO TIMES as many people running around in Zealots as there are in Hurricanes?

.....and I'm not thinking it through?


No I'm saying there are two times as many zealots involved in PVP this month than hurricanes. Thats what the figures mean.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3166 - 2012-09-26 20:48:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Lallante wrote:




This is ridiculous, you are comparing apples with oranges (including tracking computers for the turret ships? Guess what, a drake can use them too after the changes). You dont use short range ammo on long range turrets unless you ****** up or are ganking This is undisputable. If you were at short range and had the choice you would use short range turrets. When would you EVER use a 720 cane or Beam Harb at 17km? Literally Never by choice.

To compare balance you have to look at how the weapon systems are ACTUALLY USED in PVP. Long range turrets are used at (surprise) LONG range, if they are used at all



You do actually, this is the strenght of the Rokh and Naga, when Antimatter out ranges scortch baddons you have a pretty good DPS advantage.

There is no need to fit for max range in that case, past 150 they just warp in on your head and then you DO have issues, most fleet fights happen below 100km for that reason.
Lallante
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#3167 - 2012-09-26 20:49:35 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Lallante wrote:




This is ridiculous, you are comparing apples with oranges (including tracking computers for the turret ships? Guess what, a drake can use them too after the changes). You dont use short range ammo on long range turrets unless you ****** up or are ganking This is undisputable. If you were at short range and had the choice you would use short range turrets. When would you EVER use a 720 cane or Beam Harb at 17km? Literally Never by choice.

To compare balance you have to look at how the weapon systems are ACTUALLY USED in PVP. Long range turrets are used at (surprise) LONG range, if they are used at all



You do actually, this is the strenght of the Rokh and Naga, when Antimatter outrages scortch baddons you have a pretty good DPS advantage.



We are talking about medium long range guns.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3168 - 2012-09-26 20:52:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Lallante wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Lallante wrote:




This is ridiculous, you are comparing apples with oranges (including tracking computers for the turret ships? Guess what, a drake can use them too after the changes). You dont use short range ammo on long range turrets unless you ****** up or are ganking This is undisputable. If you were at short range and had the choice you would use short range turrets. When would you EVER use a 720 cane or Beam Harb at 17km? Literally Never by choice.

To compare balance you have to look at how the weapon systems are ACTUALLY USED in PVP. Long range turrets are used at (surprise) LONG range, if they are used at all



You do actually, this is the strenght of the Rokh and Naga, when Antimatter outrages scortch baddons you have a pretty good DPS advantage.



We are talking about medium long range guns.


Ahh yes, the blastions of overpoweredness they are.

Other than the arty cane, I can't say I've ever mounted one, and I have had all three for a long time.

Lallante wrote:
[

No I'm saying there are two times as many zealots involved in PVP this month than hurricanes. Thats what the figures mean.


Yeah, gtfo, please be real.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#3169 - 2012-09-26 20:56:03 UTC
Lallante wrote:


So you keep saying. This isnt an argument against balancing the drake, its an argument for balancing the other platforms!


I never said the other platforms should not be adressed! I said the contrary - I demand them to be adressed ASAP and way before any other changes should be planned, because then we will have a much more complete picture of issues or non-issues.

About your other posting just one last note - you claim long range fittings should be used long range, which is per definition smart. But even smarter is, to use a fitting in a range where it works. If you can out-DPS the Drake in a window from 15-35 km or in a window from 75km (non sebod) or 79km (sebod Drake, whos missiles run out due to movement of target and flighttime) til the end of your locking range (for example 90 km in a sebo Cane) , where would you let the fight take place? Exactly, in one of those 2 windows. If you cant, then you will have to disengage or you will lose. Same goes for the Drake - it can either try to run (good luck) or will die when its caught in the wrong window. Seriously, you have two nice windows of choice, you can dictate range, use it!
Lallante
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#3170 - 2012-09-26 20:56:55 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Lallante wrote:
[
We are talking about medium long range guns.


Ahh yes, the blastions of overpoweredness they are.

Other than the arty cane, I can't say I've ever mounted one, and I have had all three for a long time.

That's always been my argument too. But the main problem is the platforms not the guns themselves.


Quote:

Lallante wrote:


No I'm saying there are two times as many zealots involved in PVP this month than hurricanes. Thats what the figures mean.


Yeah, gtfo, please be real.


Explain what the numbers mean then.
Snape Dieboldmotor
Minotaur Congress
#3171 - 2012-09-26 20:58:10 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

If I was to find the time by some miracle to skip ahead and fix another few ships along with this pass it would be the Nighthawk and Cerb, not the Drake.


You're nerfing a beloved ship - the Drake. Buffing the Nighthawk or Cerberus might give Caldari something to be excited about.

You preach "balance", but a nerf without a buff just makes people mad.

Fozzie, I appreciate your patience with us. We have an significant investment in this game. Thanks!
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3172 - 2012-09-26 20:58:31 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:

I didnt say those fittings are viable per se, but I said the numbers which this other guy posted say nothing at all. You will most probably agree with me that in turret ships its quite often possible to fit in a TC and/or TE in viable fittings. And I hope you agree with me too, that a PvP Cane is not by default worse than a PvP Drake ... do you? :-)



Depends on application.

If the fight starts close, I'd rather be in a cane, if I'm doing the warp in give me a drake every time, because by the time they get to us they are pretty much already wrecked.

......and sure the fittings aren't viable, but everyone is comparing them TO A STANDARD FIT DRAKE.

I have a drake in my hangar right now that hits 114km and does 400DPS to probably 105KM of it and still has a 40k ehp tank....oh and did I mention its cap stable. Tech2/meta IV fit I may add.

There is no other medium weapon that even gets in the ballpark, particularly not with a tank and any sort of cap endurance.
Lallante
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#3173 - 2012-09-26 20:59:20 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Lallante wrote:


So you keep saying. This isnt an argument against balancing the drake, its an argument for balancing the other platforms!


I never said the other platforms should not be adressed! I said the contrary - I demand them to be adressed ASAP and way before any other changes should be planned, because then we will have a much more complete picture of issues or non-issues.

About your other posting just one last note - you claim long range fittings should be used long range, which is per definition smart. But even smarter is, to use a fitting in a range where it works. If you can out-DPS the Drake in a window from 15-35 km or in a window from 75km (non sebod) or 79km (sebod Drake, whos missiles run out due to movement of target and flighttime) til the end of your locking range (for example 90 km in a sebo Cane) , where would you let the fight take place? Exactly, in one of those 2 windows. If you cant, then you will have to disengage or you will lose. Same goes for the Drake - it can either try to run (good luck) or will die when its caught in the wrong window. Seriously, you have two nice windows of choice, you can dictate range, use it!


In the 15 - 35km window you mentioned, why wouldnt you use short range guns (with long range ammo) which would have more DPS and VASTLY higher tracking?

As I've mentioned, if you are using TCs on the gun platforms you need to do so on the Drake too, so there is no long range window where the turrets beat the Drake. Also 84km is the correct range since the changes to Missile acceleration now on the test server, not 79km.
Lallante
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#3174 - 2012-09-26 21:00:10 UTC
Snape Dieboldmotor wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

If I was to find the time by some miracle to skip ahead and fix another few ships along with this pass it would be the Nighthawk and Cerb, not the Drake.


You're nerfing a beloved ship - the Drake. Buffing the Nighthawk or Cerberus might give Caldari something to be excited about.

You preach "balance", but a nerf without a buff just makes people mad.

Fozzie, I appreciate your patience with us. We have an significant investment in this game. Thanks!



Have you ignored the huge buff to HAMs in the form of Tracking Enhancers?
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#3175 - 2012-09-26 21:05:05 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:

I didnt say those fittings are viable per se, but I said the numbers which this other guy posted say nothing at all. You will most probably agree with me that in turret ships its quite often possible to fit in a TC and/or TE in viable fittings. And I hope you agree with me too, that a PvP Cane is not by default worse than a PvP Drake ... do you? :-)



Depends on application.

If the fight starts close, I'd rather be in a cane, if I'm doing the warp in give me a drake every time, because by the time they get to us they are pretty much already wrecked.

.


Thats what I meant with balance - in one situation one ship is in favor, and in the other situation another ship is. I have no problems at all with bringing other BCs a bit more in line with Drake and Cane, but I object to nerfing the Drake like it is planned as a HML platform. I have no idea how the actual changes will be, but I think Caldari should have a viable tech 1 hull for long range missile fights. And apart from the Drake I dont see one ...

Apart from that, a Myrm, Brutix and Harbinger can be fitted for close range in your face DPS fights which no Drake would win, and Cyclone should be able to get the edge in 1on1. Still, overall BCs seem ok balanced to me, esp. in comparison to other classes.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#3176 - 2012-09-26 21:07:56 UTC
Lallante wrote:



Have you ignored the huge buff to HAMs in the form of Tracking Enhancers?


TEs will not make HAMs a long range platform (and ofc, they shouldnt!). People dont like the idea there is no long range missile system working anymore for Caldari. Apart from that, how those TEs will really work in the next release is a topic of not so many facts but just much speculation. I personally have to see yet how they will buff HAMs in a way they are really viable, but time will tell.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3177 - 2012-09-26 21:08:10 UTC
Lallante wrote:


Explain what the numbers mean then.



I did twice.

All those numbers tell you is that the X hull is being used in fleet fights. Period that is all. Because you don't know how many people are on each kill, it only parses the killmails.

Because I have a hard time believing that Zealots are used in PvP twice as many times as a hurricane.....ever its a niche hull. Like I said NC. is using them, but there aren't that many, NC. isn't terribly big compared to most null alliances. Previous NC. picking up that doctrine I had only EVER seen Zealots in space as anti-tackle with HAC gangs. Ever.

You are telling me that ONE alliance is has more kills with Zealots that the REST OF EVE does with hurricanes?

Odd,I've heard the game called Drakes and Canes online, never Drakes and Zealots online.
Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#3178 - 2012-09-26 21:08:42 UTC
Lallante wrote:
Snape Dieboldmotor wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

If I was to find the time by some miracle to skip ahead and fix another few ships along with this pass it would be the Nighthawk and Cerb, not the Drake.


You're nerfing a beloved ship - the Drake. Buffing the Nighthawk or Cerberus might give Caldari something to be excited about.

You preach "balance", but a nerf without a buff just makes people mad.

Fozzie, I appreciate your patience with us. We have an significant investment in this game. Thanks!



Have you ignored the huge buff to HAMs in the form of Tracking Enhancers?


And you ingored we are talking about long range weapons?

Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff?
Lallante
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#3179 - 2012-09-26 21:14:50 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:

I didnt say those fittings are viable per se, but I said the numbers which this other guy posted say nothing at all. You will most probably agree with me that in turret ships its quite often possible to fit in a TC and/or TE in viable fittings. And I hope you agree with me too, that a PvP Cane is not by default worse than a PvP Drake ... do you? :-)



Depends on application.

If the fight starts close, I'd rather be in a cane, if I'm doing the warp in give me a drake every time, because by the time they get to us they are pretty much already wrecked.

.


Thats what I meant with balance - in one situation one ship is in favor, and in the other situation another ship is. I have no problems at all with bringing other BCs a bit more in line with Drake and Cane, but I object to nerfing the Drake like it is planned as a HML platform. I have no idea how the actual changes will be, but I think Caldari should have a viable tech 1 hull for long range missile fights. And apart from the Drake I dont see one ...

Apart from that, a Myrm, Brutix and Harbinger can be fitted for close range in your face DPS fights which no Drake would win, and Cyclone should be able to get the edge in 1on1. Still, overall BCs seem ok balanced to me, esp. in comparison to other classes.



In what sense is the Drake NOT viable after the changes? Lets assume (as is sensible) that its Kin bonus will become RoF like it did on the other 2 balanced caldari missile ships.

A HAM drake would have a good chance in a close range fight, and vastly more so after the tracking enhancer changes. You can kite pretty well at 23km.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#3180 - 2012-09-26 21:15:13 UTC
Lallante wrote:


In the 15 - 35km window you mentioned, why wouldnt you use short range guns (with long range ammo) which would have more DPS and VASTLY higher tracking?

As I've mentioned, if you are using TCs on the gun platforms you need to do so on the Drake too, so there is no long range window where the turrets beat the Drake. Also 84km is the correct range since the changes to Missile acceleration now on the test server, not 79km.


Sorry, no. The correct range is the one on the live server, not the one on test server. Do you agree on the fact a Drake can atm shoot on longer ranges only by using rigs for this? So TCs for now DONT work on a Drake. Please stop mixing facts about how it is NOW and WHY the changes have to be done with completely unsure speculation of what might be coming with exactly those changes....