These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3141 - 2012-09-26 20:10:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
apart from at the edge of HML-range (and thats not the one which people always quote here, and you know that too ;) ) HML deal ZERO DPS, and turrets dont.


I would like to see Cane doing 400 dps @ 70 km.

Bonus points if you can hit moving cruiser @ 10 km with same fit.

How many remote tracking link/Sebo alts am I allowed to use? Big smile


None.

Btw, it goes only to 382 dps at 74 km with 6% implants and four Tobias' gyros.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#3142 - 2012-09-26 20:12:04 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
apart from at the edge of HML-range (and thats not the one which people always quote here, and you know that too ;) ) HML deal ZERO DPS, and turrets dont.


I would like to see Cane doing 400 dps @ 70 km.

Bonus points if you can hit moving cruiser @ 10 km with same fit.


I would like to see my Drake can fit an armor tank like a Cane, be still pretty fast, have a full rack of weapons and 2 medium neuts, and a much bigger dronebay. Your "argument" completely misses the point.

Ships are different, and its good they are.

I will not say the Drake is bad. Heck, I remember when I was nearly the only one who said its not a bad BC for PvP, some 4 years ago most ppl said it sucks for PvP. Nothing (!) has been changed since then on the Drake, and the only big changes were a buff for Projectiles and the nerf of Nano. But it is by no means OP. OP are large ACs (due to far too much falloff), OP is the Machariel, and OP is Winmatar as a whole.

Ofc its nice to be able to do kinetic DPS in that numbers on that range. A bit later you deal none, and all those sniper turret ships can still deal some (which is not much, but infinitely more than the zero you deal as a Drake). Apart from that Drakes can normally not dictate the range. If you feel unhappy with your engagement range, leave.

The Drake is the only thing caldari have. And its overused in null sec (cheap to replace, Starcraft Zergling style.). But it is NOT OP in anything else than that abuse in null.
Lallante
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#3143 - 2012-09-26 20:12:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Lallante
Here are the stats for people too lazy to look back

(before dmg mods, but dmg mods make no difference comparatively, just add the same % to all)

720mm cane - 168dps (54+22km)
Beam harbinger - 184dps (54+10km)
250mm ferox - 120dps (97+15km)
Rail Brutix - 175dps (65+15km)
... all with rather ****** tracking
VS
Drake - 250dps across 84km



Thats 35% better than the next best, the Harb, at a range longer than anything other than the ferox which does less than half the damage


Post changes:
Drake - 200dps (STILL THE HIGHEST) across 64km (right in the middle of the pack)
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3144 - 2012-09-26 20:16:00 UTC
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
Lallante wrote:
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
Bloutok wrote:
I wonder if the Caldari tier 3 had been a missile boat if we would have been having such a long thread about nuking the drake to oblivion ? Big smile



The Naga was originally going to be a torp/cruise boat.

However, due to the massive engagement time, and the lack of pretty much any EHP, it was a sitting duck and would die before a single volley even hit..

How's that for weapons balancing?

They had to turn a missile boat into a turret boat just so it could even compete.

to finish your sentence: ... to compete at a role that required instant dmg application. Well obviously. Perhaps I should complain that the gallente stealth bomber doesnt use drones/hybrids?


all bombers are comberable to other bombers.


Your comparison is also way off base.
However, had they designed each of the stealth bombers to use the weapons of their race than odds are the manticore would be a turret boat just to compete.

What I'm stating is that the Naga was originally designed to be a torp/cruise boat.

However, since missiles are inferior to turrets when it comes to setting up a class cannon style build, then it was either buff naga EHP, or make it a turret boat.


Close it actually had a split hybrid/missile bonus, and it sucked terribly at both.
Lallante
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#3145 - 2012-09-26 20:17:15 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
apart from at the edge of HML-range (and thats not the one which people always quote here, and you know that too ;) ) HML deal ZERO DPS, and turrets dont.


I would like to see Cane doing 400 dps @ 70 km.

Bonus points if you can hit moving cruiser @ 10 km with same fit.


I would like to see my Drake can fit an armor tank like a Cane, be still pretty fast, have a full rack of weapons and 2 medium neuts, and a much bigger dronebay. Your "argument" completely misses the point.


A Cane cant do this after the balancing changes, it has to drop the neuts or downgrade some guns or the tank. The Drake's tank is better than the canes before the balancing, let alone after it.

Quote:
Ships are different, and its good they are.

I will not say the Drake is bad. Heck, I remember when I was nearly the only one who said its not a bad BC for PvP, some 4 years ago most ppl said it sucks for PvP. Nothing (!) has been changed since then on the Drake, and the only big changes were a buff for Projectiles and the nerf of Nano. But it is by no means OP. OP are large ACs (due to far too much falloff), OP is the Machariel, and OP is Winmatar as a whole.

Ofc its nice to be able to do kinetic DPS in that numbers on that range. A bit later you deal none, and all those sniper turret ships can still deal some (which is not much, but infinitely more than the zero you deal as a Drake). Apart from that Drakes can normally not dictate the range. If you feel unhappy with your engagement range, leave.


If drakes are not op why do more people fly it than all amarr t1 plus all gallente t1 put together?

Quote:

The Drake is the only thing caldari have. And its overused in null sec (cheap to replace, Starcraft Zergling style.). But it is NOT OP in anything else than that abuse in null.

Apart from all the other ships that caldari have you mean. Caldari HACs and Command ships need work. Ravens need work, the Ferox needs work. The rest are great.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3146 - 2012-09-26 20:19:35 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
I would like to see my Drake can fit an armor tank like a Cane, be still pretty fast, have a full rack of weapons and 2 medium neuts, and a much bigger dronebay. Your "argument" completely misses the point.


Then don't claim 720mm Cane does more dps at HML range and can hit everything at close range too (with what tracking exactly?).

Drake drone bay: 25 m3
Cane drone bay: 30 m3

"much bigger dronebay"?
Lallante
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#3147 - 2012-09-26 20:19:39 UTC
Posting these figures for comparison too:

Rank Ships Kills
1 Drake 217253
2 Zealot 121388
3 Hurricane 58161
4 Tengu 44448
5 Tornado 38660
6 Naga 36019
7 Loki 35523
8 Maelstrom 35348
9 Oracle 32099
10 Thrasher 22526
11 Hound 21321
12 Cynabal 20629
13 Sabre 19995
14 Huginn 18623
15 Abaddon 18573
16 Talos 18475
17 Proteus 18350
18 Rifter 18023
19 Scimitar 17679
20 Stabber Fleet Issue 17342



Rank Weapons Kills
1 Heavy Missile Launcher II 99650
2 425mm AutoCannon II 28726
3 Heavy Pulse Laser II 21778
4 200mm AutoCannon II 20231
5 Mega Pulse Laser II 19476
6 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II 17836
7 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II 15880
8 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II 15266
9 150mm Light AutoCannon II 13958
10 720mm Howitzer Artillery II 13857
11 Light Neutron Blaster II 11073
12 Neutron Blaster Cannon II 10000
13 425mm Railgun II 9628
14 Prototype 'Arbalest' Torpedo Launcher 8692
15 Advanced 'Limos' Heavy Missile Bay I 8415
16 800mm Repeating Artillery II 7397
17 Heavy Neutron Blaster II 7380
18 Light Ion Blaster II 7208
19 'Malkuth' Heavy Missile Launcher I 7070
20 Heavy Beam Laser II 6015
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3148 - 2012-09-26 20:19:43 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
apart from at the edge of HML-range (and thats not the one which people always quote here, and you know that too ;) ) HML deal ZERO DPS, and turrets dont.


I would like to see Cane doing 400 dps @ 70 km.

Bonus points if you can hit moving cruiser @ 10 km with same fit.

How many remote tracking link/Sebo alts am I allowed to use? Big smile


None.

Btw, it goes only to 382 dps at 74 km with 6% implants and four Tobias' gyros.



......so you need Super Pilot clone and a good portion of his fit.

I LOVE 6billion Hurricanes.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3149 - 2012-09-26 20:21:36 UTC
Lallante wrote:
Posting these figures for comparison too:

Rank Ships Kills
1 Drake 217253
2 Zealot 121388
3 Hurricane 58161
4 Tengu 44448
5 Tornado 38660
6 Naga 36019
7 Loki 35523
8 Maelstrom 35348
9 Oracle 32099
10 Thrasher 22526
11 Hound 21321
12 Cynabal 20629
13 Sabre 19995
14 Huginn 18623
15 Abaddon 18573
16 Talos 18475
17 Proteus 18350
18 Rifter 18023
19 Scimitar 17679
20 Stabber Fleet Issue 17342



Rank Weapons Kills
1 Heavy Missile Launcher II 99650
2 425mm AutoCannon II 28726
3 Heavy Pulse Laser II 21778
4 200mm AutoCannon II 20231
5 Mega Pulse Laser II 19476
6 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II 17836
7 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II 15880
8 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II 15266
9 150mm Light AutoCannon II 13958
10 720mm Howitzer Artillery II 13857
11 Light Neutron Blaster II 11073
12 Neutron Blaster Cannon II 10000
13 425mm Railgun II 9628
14 Prototype 'Arbalest' Torpedo Launcher 8692
15 Advanced 'Limos' Heavy Missile Bay I 8415
16 800mm Repeating Artillery II 7397
17 Heavy Neutron Blaster II 7380
18 Light Ion Blaster II 7208
19 'Malkuth' Heavy Missile Launcher I 7070
20 Heavy Beam Laser II 6015



To be fair those are nigh on useless.

You kill one battleship with a 100 people that launched ....not hit mind you....just launched and you generated 100 kills. This is why Zealot is on there NC. are using them against GSF and co.
Lallante
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#3150 - 2012-09-26 20:22:57 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Lallante wrote:
Posting these figures for comparison too:

Rank Ships Kills
1 Drake 217253
2 Zealot 121388
3 Hurricane 58161
4 Tengu 44448
5 Tornado 38660
6 Naga 36019
7 Loki 35523
8 Maelstrom 35348
9 Oracle 32099
10 Thrasher 22526
11 Hound 21321
12 Cynabal 20629
13 Sabre 19995
14 Huginn 18623
15 Abaddon 18573
16 Talos 18475
17 Proteus 18350
18 Rifter 18023
19 Scimitar 17679
20 Stabber Fleet Issue 17342



Rank Weapons Kills
1 Heavy Missile Launcher II 99650
2 425mm AutoCannon II 28726
3 Heavy Pulse Laser II 21778
4 200mm AutoCannon II 20231
5 Mega Pulse Laser II 19476
6 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II 17836
7 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II 15880
8 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II 15266
9 150mm Light AutoCannon II 13958
10 720mm Howitzer Artillery II 13857
11 Light Neutron Blaster II 11073
12 Neutron Blaster Cannon II 10000
13 425mm Railgun II 9628
14 Prototype 'Arbalest' Torpedo Launcher 8692
15 Advanced 'Limos' Heavy Missile Bay I 8415
16 800mm Repeating Artillery II 7397
17 Heavy Neutron Blaster II 7380
18 Light Ion Blaster II 7208
19 'Malkuth' Heavy Missile Launcher I 7070
20 Heavy Beam Laser II 6015



To be fair those are nigh on useless.

You kill one battleship with a 100 people that launched ....not hit mind you....just launched and you generated 100 kills. This is why Zealot is on there NC. are using them against GSF and co.



Think about it, that shows they are useless for seeing HOW GOOD the ships are, sure, but they are still completely accurate for telling you HOW MANY get flown.

Zealots are on there because sniper zealots were FOTM for years.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3151 - 2012-09-26 20:27:37 UTC
Onictus wrote:
To be fair those are nigh on useless.

You kill one battleship with a 100 people that launched ....not hit mind you....just launched and you generated 100 kills. This is why Zealot is on there NC. are using them against GSF and co.


It's killing blow, not all in KM.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3152 - 2012-09-26 20:27:51 UTC
Lallante wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Lallante wrote:
Posting these figures for comparison too:

Rank Ships Kills
1 Drake 217253
2 Zealot 121388
3 Hurricane 58161
4 Tengu 44448
5 Tornado 38660
6 Naga 36019
7 Loki 35523
8 Maelstrom 35348
9 Oracle 32099
10 Thrasher 22526
11 Hound 21321
12 Cynabal 20629
13 Sabre 19995
14 Huginn 18623
15 Abaddon 18573
16 Talos 18475
17 Proteus 18350
18 Rifter 18023
19 Scimitar 17679
20 Stabber Fleet Issue 17342



Rank Weapons Kills
1 Heavy Missile Launcher II 99650
2 425mm AutoCannon II 28726
3 Heavy Pulse Laser II 21778
4 200mm AutoCannon II 20231
5 Mega Pulse Laser II 19476
6 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II 17836
7 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II 15880
8 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II 15266
9 150mm Light AutoCannon II 13958
10 720mm Howitzer Artillery II 13857
11 Light Neutron Blaster II 11073
12 Neutron Blaster Cannon II 10000
13 425mm Railgun II 9628
14 Prototype 'Arbalest' Torpedo Launcher 8692
15 Advanced 'Limos' Heavy Missile Bay I 8415
16 800mm Repeating Artillery II 7397
17 Heavy Neutron Blaster II 7380
18 Light Ion Blaster II 7208
19 'Malkuth' Heavy Missile Launcher I 7070
20 Heavy Beam Laser II 6015



To be fair those are nigh on useless.

You kill one battleship with a 100 people that launched ....not hit mind you....just launched and you generated 100 kills. This is why Zealot is on there NC. are using them against GSF and co.



Think about it, that shows they are useless for seeing HOW GOOD the ships are, sure, but they are still completely accurate for telling you HOW MANY get flown.

Zealots are on there because sniper zealots were FOTM for years.



It tells you who is blobbing with them, say GSF kills 100ships in a fight with a 1200 drake fleet, at 70 "hits" per kill you just generated 7000 kills on that list.

.....and that list is month by month, zealot's past performance has NOTHING to do with it. Zealot is on there because NC. is using them to bust drake blobs, period.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#3153 - 2012-09-26 20:30:29 UTC
Lallante wrote:
Here are the stats for people too lazy to look back

(before dmg mods, but dmg mods make no difference comparatively, just add the same % to all)

720mm cane - 168dps (54+22km)
Beam harbinger - 184dps (54+10km)
250mm ferox - 120dps (97+15km)
Rail Brutix - 175dps (65+15km)
... all with rather ****** tracking
VS
Drake - 250dps across 84km


Thats 35% better than the next best, the Harb, at a range longer than anything other than the ferox which does less than half the damage


And its so wrong, again. You neglect how falloff works, you neglect how instant damage works, and you neglect how those 84km are not a real number. Further more you neglect the fact TCs and TEs will change those ranges and are PART of valid PvP fittings right now, same with remote stuff.

Just an example:

720mm cane - 290dps (17+28km) with RF high damage /EMP/PP/Fusion, 1 TC II fitted. So is that more than the Drake or not?

Beam harbinger - 318 dps (17+13km) with faction Multi and 1 TC II too.

That Cane with one TC will hit with 130-140 DPS where the Drake has no DPS at all anymore btw ..

So, I showed you where those ships are stronger in DPS than a Drake, and where the Drake is stronger. We didnt even come to Drones yet, or speed, or utility slots, or whatever ... and all of those points will NOT make the Drake stronger!

Seriously, like I said 2 pages ago - its complete pointless to argue with you as a person, but I will not leave you alone as long as you spread lies over lies here. Btw, if your concern is really the *range* of medium sized long range turrets, then why dont you try to buff them? Apart from, they are in fact not the real problem ... null sec is, and you know it.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3154 - 2012-09-26 20:30:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Onictus wrote:
To be fair those are nigh on useless.

You kill one battleship with a 100 people that launched ....not hit mind you....just launched and you generated 100 kills. This is why Zealot is on there NC. are using them against GSF and co.


It's killing blow, not all in KM.



Not sure I'd bet on that.

Look at the kill tallies, the entire top 20 only has 120,000 some odd kills, and you are telling me that 60% of that number came from drakes?

......and that Zealot is number #2?

Yeah right.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#3155 - 2012-09-26 20:32:03 UTC
Please CCP delay it a bit, I'm just getting into missiles and whoa, having no tracking issues and high volley damage no matter the range... srsly, hmls from a drake are hitting harder at 10k than a armorcane with rf muni.

Also less drakes = faster paced fights! (Because you don't have two 160k EHP bricks floating around in that pulsar)
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#3156 - 2012-09-26 20:35:01 UTC
Onictus wrote:



It tells you who is blobbing with them, say GSF kills 100ships in a fight with a 1200 drake fleet, at 70 "hits" per kill you just generated 7000 kills on that list.

.....and that list is month by month, zealot's past performance has NOTHING to do with it. Zealot is on there because NC. is using them to bust drake blobs, period.


Exactly my point. Those numbers come from nothing else but null sec blobs. Still some people here try to tell us they actually show something else.... and even when they know their lies are lies they continue to spread them :)
Lallante
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#3157 - 2012-09-26 20:36:07 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Lallante wrote:


Think about it, that shows they are useless for seeing HOW GOOD the ships are, sure, but they are still completely accurate for telling you HOW MANY get flown.

Zealots are on there because sniper zealots were FOTM for years.



It tells you who is blobbing with them, say GSF kills 100ships in a fight with a 1200 drake fleet, at 70 "hits" per kill you just generated 7000 kills on that list.

.....and that list is month by month, zealot's past performance has NOTHING to do with it. Zealot is on there because NC. is using them to bust drake blobs, period.



Sorry mate you aren't thinking the maths through (though you may be right on the second point).

Lets say GSF did as above, killed 100 with 70 drakes per kill and score 7000 kills for drakes
Imagine a 120 man thorax gang (or whatever) gang getting 100 kills themselves with an average of 7 ships on each kill - this scores 700 kills for thoraxes.

There are exactly 10 times more drakes being flown than thoraxes, and they get exactly 10 times the score - the score still perfectly represents their relative use in PvP.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3158 - 2012-09-26 20:39:00 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Lallante wrote:
Here are the stats for people too lazy to look back

(before dmg mods, but dmg mods make no difference comparatively, just add the same % to all)

720mm cane - 168dps (54+22km)
Beam harbinger - 184dps (54+10km)
250mm ferox - 120dps (97+15km)
Rail Brutix - 175dps (65+15km)
... all with rather ****** tracking
VS
Drake - 250dps across 84km


Thats 35% better than the next best, the Harb, at a range longer than anything other than the ferox which does less than half the damage


And its so wrong, again. You neglect how falloff works, you neglect how instant damage works, and you neglect how those 84km are not a real number. Further more you neglect the fact TCs and TEs will change those ranges and are PART of valid PvP fittings right now, same with remote stuff.

Just an example:

720mm cane - 290dps (17+28km) with RF high damage /EMP/PP/Fusion, 1 TC II fitted. So is that more than the Drake or not?

Beam harbinger - 318 dps (17+13km) with faction Multi and 1 TC II too.

That Cane with one TC will hit with 130-140 DPS where the Drake has no DPS at all anymore btw ..

So, I showed you where those ships are stronger in DPS than a Drake, and where the Drake is stronger. We didnt even come to Drones yet, or speed, or utility slots, or whatever ... and all of those points will NOT make the Drake stronger!

Seriously, like I said 2 pages ago - its complete pointless to argue with you as a person, but I will not leave you alone as long as you spread lies over lies here. Btw, if your concern is really the *range* of medium sized long range turrets, then why dont you try to buff them? Apart from, they are in fact not the real problem ... null sec is, and you know it.



Really? You do know you need Sebo(s) to get a cane to hit 100km, two of them, plus a tracking computer and a MWD...where does the tank go on? Because you can't armor tank and fit a rack of 720s, you need an ACR with a shield tank just to get them to fit.

Congrats, you just built a Cane that would lose a fight to a nub ship.

Same with a bringer, ever try to fit a rack of heavy beams on one? Yeah, what tank. So you just traded 30k ehp to do 300dps, you now have a real real real slow and real real real real long ranged assault frigate.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#3159 - 2012-09-26 20:40:04 UTC
Lallante wrote:


There are exactly 10 times more drakes being flown than thoraxes, and they get exactly 10 times the score - the score still perfectly represents their relative use in PvP.


They are used excessively in null sec. No one denied that fact. Nice you seem to at least see you cant keep up with that lie about the Drake being OP anywhere else than in null sec.

Still the "overuse" of the Drake would be reduced IMO if there were other platforms for caldari missile users. As long as there are none you will see more Drakes than for example Harbingers, where Amarr pilots have many ships to choose from. Simple as that ...
Lallante
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#3160 - 2012-09-26 20:45:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Lallante
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Lallante wrote:
Here are the stats for people too lazy to look back

(before dmg mods, but dmg mods make no difference comparatively, just add the same % to all)

720mm cane - 168dps (54+22km)
Beam harbinger - 184dps (54+10km)
250mm ferox - 120dps (97+15km)
Rail Brutix - 175dps (65+15km)
... all with rather ****** tracking
VS
Drake - 250dps across 84km


Thats 35% better than the next best, the Harb, at a range longer than anything other than the ferox which does less than half the damage


And its so wrong, again. You neglect how falloff works, you neglect how instant damage works, and you neglect how those 84km are not a real number. Further more you neglect the fact TCs and TEs will change those ranges and are PART of valid PvP fittings right now, same with remote stuff.

Just an example:

720mm cane - 290dps (17+28km) with RF high damage /EMP/PP/Fusion, 1 TC II fitted. So is that more than the Drake or not?

Beam harbinger - 318 dps (17+13km) with faction Multi and 1 TC II too.

That Cane with one TC will hit with 130-140 DPS where the Drake has no DPS at all anymore btw ..

So, I showed you where those ships are stronger in DPS than a Drake, and where the Drake is stronger. We didnt even come to Drones yet, or speed, or utility slots, or whatever ... and all of those points will NOT make the Drake stronger!

Seriously, like I said 2 pages ago - its complete pointless to argue with you as a person, but I will not leave you alone as long as you spread lies over lies here. Btw, if your concern is really the *range* of medium sized long range turrets, then why dont you try to buff them? Apart from, they are in fact not the real problem ... null sec is, and you know it.



This is ridiculous, you are comparing apples with oranges (including tracking computers for the turret ships? Guess what, a drake can use them too after the changes). You dont use short range ammo on long range turrets unless you ****** up or are ganking This is undisputable. If you were at short range and had the choice you would use short range turrets. When would you EVER use a 720 cane or Beam Harb at 17km? Literally Never by choice.

To compare balance you have to look at how the weapon systems are ACTUALLY USED in PVP. Long range turrets are used at (surprise) LONG range, if they are used at all