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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Dato Koppla
Spaghetti Militia
#2861 - 2012-09-24 23:05:15 UTC
I'm chiming in to say that TEs falloff bonus is wayy too much and contributes to the Winmatar factor, 30% bonus for one of their most important stats, for a module that takes no cap and has very low fitting requirements is abit much.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#2862 - 2012-09-24 23:10:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Noemi Nagano
I see a few issues with this planned nerf to missiles generally and to HML specifically.

First of all, the idea to make tracking disruption efficient vs missiles is not making sense to me. Why do you give missiles an existing weakspot of the gunnery tree without giving strongpoints too like falloff, instant damage and wrecking hits? Apart from the fact this will be a tremendous boost for TD-bonused ships, which is definitely not a good idea (I didnt hear complaints about them being too UP!). Right now its like that: turrets have certain attributes (good ones and bad ones), missiles have other ones. To get everything in line its not enough to share just 1 or 2 of those attributes while completely ignoring the others.

Second question: what exactly makes HMLs an overpowered weapon system in your opinion? What I see is this: HML work fine in small scale PvP (in fact I never heard someone saying HMLs are OP! I remember those times when everyone said Drakes suck at PvP because they have no DPS .. and there was no buff for HML/HAM since then!), they may be a problem in fleets, but thats more according to lag issues than to the actual weapon platform performance. I agree they do solid DPS on a long range (0-max range, which is pretty nice). But: they dont outperform their gunnery-cousins on every range, in fact on optimal range guns will normally beat missiles. This means for me - you have pros and cons, for both. If you are able to engage in your preferred range you may have the edge, but thats the same vice versa. Sounds like balance to me ...

So what I do see atm is this: there is an existing problem (large fleets AKA Drake blob in nul), and to solve it a balanced system gets messed up without really doing it til the end. If you feel like putting missiles in line with turrets - fine. Give the missile users insta damage, wreckings and everything else, and I am pretty sure no one would complain in their CNRs, Ravens, Nighthawks and the like ;) but in fact EVE would not need a 4th system then .. it would be far better to just give projectiles and bonuses for it to all 4 races, there you will have your balance :)

/irony
Maybe thats how this issue should be solved: give the bonus to of each ship just to a "ships class sized weapon platform" and let everyone decide how he wants to fit his ship: Drake with 7 t2 Pulse, Cane with Rails, whatever you like ... and not make every system the very same ;)
/irony off

About the balance: PvE is maybe another thing, as there is atm no BC able to beat a Drake at mission efficiency and also no other t3 as good for missions as a well fitted Tengu. Then again, a Machariel is better than any other ship in high end PvE, and there is nothing Caldari in it. And as far as I know EVE is NOT balanced around PvE, else you would need to nerf the Machariel (and also Vargur) a LOT. Alone the fact those 2 ships are able to use a close range weapon on insane ranges (with still pretty decent DPS) thanks to the completely overdone falloff is just funny. I want the chance for a Golem, CNR, Kronos or Vindicator too, to shoot with Torps/Blasters to those ranges and just lose a small portion of my DPS. So if you really look for balance problems, there you find some ...

Btw, I am not really helpless - can fly all 4 races with similar skills, and also have every sub cap weapon system skilled to spec 4. So for me its just hop into another ship. If I want to PvE , ok my Machariel waits for me, and the Tengu just collects dust (like any other caldari ship). But I dont see the point of this nerf at all, it really makes no sense, it just raises more questions than it gives answers.

Best regards.
Lili Lu
#2863 - 2012-09-24 23:28:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
To Drumar Rotineque - Decent post, although I think you overstate your both-sided ascription of "crap numbers" being posted on the "in favor" side. Afterall noone on that side is comparing a Drake to a Tornado, Lol, or the short range gun dps to long range missile dps, as the "against" side has multiple times even after the OP was very clear about the flaw in that comparison. However, the following paragraph stood out to me for comment -

Drumar Rotineque wrote:
....you argue that they'll be right back to their normal range with a TE or TC. Well, To fit a TE, they are going to have to drop their second BCS as the other two are normally passive shield recharges in order to keep up with dps on harder lvl 4's....This WILL effectively put this as the shortest long range weapon. And with a 20% reduction in damage, it would effectively be even MORE if they want to get their range back.


I think it was always an unintended feature of the game that Caldari players had such an easy path to first entry into level 4s with the op pve regen Drake tanking (op possibly more due to the very faulty and skewed shield regen stat on BCs in general than due to the resist bonus). BC passive shield fits really should not be tankning what they do. No Harby or Cane is going to walse into any level 4 and tank it while still putting out enough damage or with enough range the way the Drake (and to a lesser extent the Myrm) currently can. That Drakes lose their easy level 4 ability is only leveling the playing field.

Prior to the introduction of the Tengu any Drake pilot with a brain trained into a Raven-kind and it was king of pve. It could be again. Regardless, every other race was having to train BS and BS weapon skills just to get into the level 4 income game. When Drakes lose their current over-easy tanking ability for level 4s (or their over easy sufficient ranged damage dealing abilities) there will be balance in this regard.

I think it's already been hinted at by Fozzie that with this HML nerf (and I suspect possible general overall BC hp and shield regen alterations when the comprehensive BC rebalancing comes) the Drake may end up retaining its resist bonus. That frankly would be more than Drake addicts could have expected going into what we all knew was coming (well at least those of us in the game that didn't have blinders on concerning pve and pvp Drake overuse statistics).
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#2864 - 2012-09-24 23:41:13 UTC
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:


Your sitting here crying about SP you spent on ships that are still relevant and usable.
just because you don't use those ships/fits anymore doesn't mean you couldn't.



You put this in print and didn't even care to think that it applies to your missile ships as well, its like you understood the point i was making without understanding that you understood it.

The implications there are mind boggling.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#2865 - 2012-09-24 23:53:10 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:


I think it was always an unintended feature of the game that Caldari players had such an easy path to first entry into level 4s with the op pve regen Drake tanking (op possibly more due to the very faulty and skewed shield regen stat on BCs in general than due to the resist bonus). BC passive shield fits really should not be tankning what they do. No Harby or Cane is going to walse into any level 4 and tank it while still putting out enough damage or with enough range the way the Drake (and to a lesser extent the Myrm) currently can. That Drakes lose their easy level 4 ability is only leveling the playing field.

Prior to the introduction of the Tengu any Drake pilot with a brain trained into a Raven-kind and it was king of pve. It could be again. Regardless, every other race was having to train BS and BS weapon skills just to get into the level 4 income game. When Drakes lose their current over-easy tanking ability for level 4s (or their over easy sufficient ranged damage dealing abilities) there will be balance in this regard.



Can you explain to me how a Drake with a nerf to missiles will still be able to compete with a Cane, Myrm or Harbinger in PvP (which is what this game should be balanced around, after all ..) when right now no one with their brains set right would claim the Drake to be OP in small scale compared to those 3? General consensus is tier 2 BCs are pretty balanced atm, but with a significant nerf in range AND damage the Drake will clearly fall behind those other 3.

I dont deny the fact the Drake is OP in PvE, but even if it is, there are other ships even more OP in PvE and they dont get adressed ... basically caldari missile users are screwed, and the only reason is CCP is not able to fix missile server load issues. So please remove missiles like they are and replace them with a turret system. Or leave em like they are. But nerfing the hell out of them without giving them some buffs too is just ridiculous.
Drumar Rotineque
Norfolk N Wayman
#2866 - 2012-09-24 23:54:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Drumar Rotineque
ToLili Lu

I've read several of your posts, often belittling and what not..and i hope that you weren't saying I was comparing a drake to a tornado. I was merely stating our fleet doctrine choices. We also have an alpha maelstrom....again...not trained in projectiles and already in a drake, for missioning, when I first started.

You absolutely did hit it on the head as the direction....make everyone get in BS's for lvl 4's....more skill intensive, more isk investment...push people to buy plex! My question is...why shouldn't i be able to run lvl 4's in a BC? Just like why is my myrm worthless in a wh since it can't really pvp and even still...can't even run C2 sites because of the AI. pain in the ass pulling drones in and out. I want these teir changes hoping the brutix is more viable. Nerf the drake and cane.....contrary to CCP believe...it's not going to make the other BC's more prevelant.....aside from the Teir 3's that serve their purpose as glass cannon's....they are across the board...weak sauce! It's why they are altering the training to you HAVE to train destroyers and bc's...because my guess is once they are done nerfing the cane and the drake....people will just skip it but whatever...no skin off my back....All I'm saying is I'm for a buff of all BC's, not a nerf of the effective ones....aside from T2 and T3...dps cruisers are pretty worthless.
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2867 - 2012-09-25 00:04:36 UTC  |  Edited by: HELLBOUNDMAN
Grath Telkin wrote:
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:


Your sitting here crying about SP you spent on ships that are still relevant and usable.
just because you don't use those ships/fits anymore doesn't mean you couldn't.



You put this in print and didn't even care to think that it applies to your missile ships as well, its like you understood the point i was making without understanding that you understood it.

The implications there are mind boggling.



Yes, now go back and find the rest of my quote where i stated that nerfing heavy missiles would essentially kill the only good missile boats in game, thus making my missile sp worthless.

The difference is you waisted sp because you no longer use those ships, while my waisted sp will be forced upon me due to the fact that i will no longer have a missile boat with high efficiency in pve.

I dont mind at all that the drake and tengu are being nerfed.

Hell, I dont too much mind that heavy missiles are being nerfed long before these two ships get balanced themselves.

What i do mind is that doing so before battleship balancing leaves me up crap creek without a ship to mission in.

I've flown every sub cap missile boat above a tengu, including a golem. None of them have the efficiency of a tengu in lvl 4 missions.

So, now I have 1 billion isk in a ship that no one will buy, no other missile boat with even equal efficiency, and 8 million sp into weapon systems that are essentially obsolete by design in pve.

So, you can continue to say I have waisted sp in missiles, but the rest of us realize that unused sp is a lot different than unusable sp.
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#2868 - 2012-09-25 00:06:35 UTC
^ You can use BC in a lvl 4, you can use cruisers and frigates too.

I read your post, and it seemed, you don't want to do any work, just sit there and get ISK handed to you.

Of course a BC would make less ISK then a BS in a lvl 4. And with what you want from the game, why is that bad?

You said you don't want to do anything important at all, just have easy to train for ships, and do stuff to whittle away the time. So go ahead and use BCs in a lvl 4.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#2869 - 2012-09-25 00:11:23 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
to compete in PvP (which is what this game should be balanced around, after all ..)


Awesome and no.

Also you are ********, even if that was a good idea.

Why are you ********? Cause you only focused on the BC lvl and tried to balance them. Where are the BS, and other ships. Maybe other ships would fail on 1v1 but be really good at 2v2. Also, pvp enforces, smaller ships or just really huge ones. (BC and supers are popular) Why is that a good thing to balance the game on?

Besided brutix sucks, True, it hits stationary close things better, or perhaps lucky on a gatecamp. I don't know why you are worried about him.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Drumar Rotineque
Norfolk N Wayman
#2870 - 2012-09-25 00:15:27 UTC
rodyas wrote:
^ You can use BC in a lvl 4, you can use cruisers and frigates too.

I read your post, and it seemed, you don't want to do any work, just sit there and get ISK handed to you.

Of course a BC would make less ISK then a BS in a lvl 4. And with what you want from the game, why is that bad?

You said you don't want to do anything important at all, just have easy to train for ships, and do stuff to whittle away the time. So go ahead and use BCs in a lvl 4.



Oh boy....another guy that just doesn't get it. I don't want to PVE all day....and it takes a drake forever to clear a lvl 4....my buddy in a tengu blows through it in half the time. Legion does comparable...poor little proteus does it...but I skate out by the skin of my teeth many a times. It's why I use a domi. I prefer to PVP....but as it's expensive....forcing people to take even longer isn't creating a sandbox.....but I don't pvp in my myrm. I don't pvp in my brutix either.

ah, I give up....once again the elitest "you should have to grind for days to do what you want" mentality.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#2871 - 2012-09-25 00:19:42 UTC
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:


No one said they should be used more, but with this nerf they wont be used at all except on a tengu, which are not very common in pvp due to the cost.


....

Hell, the drake and tengu arent even used cause they have missiles.

They'd probably be used a whole lot more if they were turret boats.



HM's would still provide more firepower and range than long range turrets. i dnt think ppl are goin to suddenly stop using them.

The pros of the drake are its ranged dps and its huge tank. If it became a turret boat it would not only lose a significant portion of its ranged dps, but it also wouldn't have the grid to fit its tank either. any turreted drakes would just be fit with AC's or blasters like the ferox. I dnt think ive ever seen a rail or artie ferox.

as for the tengu, it has a subsystem devoted to turrets that can be used without gimping other subsystems, but how many times do u see that subsystem used?

The most successful pvp fit of the tengu is the 100mn AB tengu, in which HM's are second in importance only to the AB that gives the fit its name.

as for the cerberus and nighthawk not getting much use; i think its because they dnt add as much over the drake that the HACs and command ships do of other races. if u took away heavy missiles from drakes then u'd see them used a lot more

TL;DR

ppl will still use HML's. dnt u worry
yes those ships are about the heavy missiles.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Lili Lu
#2872 - 2012-09-25 00:20:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Can you explain to me how a Drake with a nerf to missiles will still be able to compete with a Cane, Myrm or Harbinger in PvP (which is what this game should be balanced around, after all ..) when right now no one with their brains set right would claim the Drake to be OP in small scale compared to those 3? General consensus is tier 2 BCs are pretty balanced atm, but with a significant nerf in range AND damage the Drake will clearly fall behind those other 3.

I dont deny the fact the Drake is OP in PvE, but even if it is, there are other ships even more OP in PvE and they dont get adressed ... basically caldari missile users are screwed, and the only reason is CCP is not able to fix missile server load issues. So please remove missiles like they are and replace them with a turret system. Or leave em like they are. But nerfing the hell out of them without giving them some buffs too is just ridiculous.

It will be fine in pvp. It will either be doing similar damage (actually probably still more damage and alpha at max range) HML compared to beams, arty, and rails. Or, it will be doing similar damage if HAM fit for close range combat as the other BCs. As for your assertion that Drakes are not op in small scale compared to the others I'm not really in agreement.

I've fought in 0.0 blobs and lowsec small gangs up to 30 or so. Drakes thrive in latter, not just the former. Although true, it is more even in the low sec smaller engagments simply due to HMLs (a long range weapon system) having near enough current dps numbers to compete with other BC close range dps. Also they thrive because of their resist bonus. Any mixed gang that goes out will contain Drake pilots that will have a better chance of coming home in that ship than the dual neut 425 autocannon Cane or HPL Harby because of the slightly lesser dps and resist bonus on the Drake (assuming you run up against a smart target caller on the other side P).

Also, in comparison to Myrms (again in mixed fleets with lower skilled fw characters, which is the pvp environment I'm currently enjoying in game) the Drakes will be outdamaging them. Travel time on drones is more of a pita that it is on HMs.Blink Lastly even in that theatre the Drakes often are near the top on the killmail for damage because not every Cane will be in range to apply its damage on every target the way the Drake will be with HMLs.

As for your pve statment you won't get any argument from me that things like the Machariel are op. Not sure if the current stats or way they can be fit was really "intended" by CCP, but BS balancing will have to wait. In the meantime I think you are wrong that Caldari have no other options than the Tengu. The Raven kind have always been strong with pve. The Navy Scorp is a decent ship. Rattlesnake ditto (while not strictly a missile boat). Even the Rokh can be put to good effect in some missions (e.g. level 4 gone berserk).

These missile changes are probably not done. Read the OP again. Other missile types are and may be later getting slight buffs. And none of these changes have to do with server load on missiles from what the devs have said. If they did they'd probably be converting every missile system into even more of an alpha weapon to cut down on the server calculations. It appears the kinetic bonuses are being done away with in favor of a rof bonus for Caldari missile boats in general (which does not exactly thrill me but hey it's their game). I think many of you are emotionally over-reacting to these changes. Step back a bit and analyse it all more is my advice.Smile
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#2873 - 2012-09-25 00:35:19 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:


Can you explain to me how a Drake with a nerf to missiles will still be able to compete with a Cane, Myrm or Harbinger in PvP (which is what this game should be balanced around, after all ..) when right now no one with their brains set right would claim the Drake to be OP in small scale compared to those 3? General consensus is tier 2 BCs are pretty balanced atm, but with a significant nerf in range AND damage the Drake will clearly fall behind those other 3.



HAM Drake with a RoF bonus and range boost will compete quite nicely in small skirmishes. its still going to have the toughest tank (with something like 87k ehp and a 150dps passive recharge) and will do over 600dps of any damage type to long point range. whats not to like?

HML drake will still dominate over artie canes, beam harbies and rail-whatevers cause rails are terrible.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Drumar Rotineque
Norfolk N Wayman
#2874 - 2012-09-25 00:36:35 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:


Can you explain to me how a Drake with a nerf to missiles will still be able to compete with a Cane, Myrm or Harbinger in PvP (which is what this game should be balanced around, after all ..) when right now no one with their brains set right would claim the Drake to be OP in small scale compared to those 3? General consensus is tier 2 BCs are pretty balanced atm, but with a significant nerf in range AND damage the Drake will clearly fall behind those other 3.



HAM Drake with a RoF bonus and range boost will compete quite nicely in small skirmishes. its still going to have the toughest tank (with something like 87k ehp and a 150dps passive recharge) and will do over 600dps of any damage type to long point range. whats not to like?

HML drake will still dominate over artie canes, beam harbies and rail-whatevers cause rails are terrible.


Can you really consider rails a real weapon system? lol
Lili Lu
#2875 - 2012-09-25 00:41:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Drumar Rotineque wrote:
ToLili Lu

I've read several of your posts, often belittling and what not..and i hope that you weren't saying I was comparing a drake to a tornado. . . .

You absolutely did hit it on the head as the direction....make everyone get in BS's for lvl 4's....more skill intensive, more isk investment...push people to buy plex! My question is...why shouldn't i be able to run lvl 4's in a BC? Just like why is my myrm worthless in a wh since it can't really pvp and even still...can't even run C2 sites because of the AI. pain in the ass pulling drones in and out. I want these teir changes hoping the brutix is more viable. Nerf the drake and cane.....contrary to CCP believe...it's not going to make the other BC's more prevelant.....aside from the Teir 3's that serve their purpose as glass cannon's....they are across the board...weak sauce! . . .

....All I'm saying is I'm for a buff of all BC's, not a nerf of the effective ones....aside from T2 and T3...dps cruisers are pretty worthless.

Wow, a lot to respond to:

One, I paid you a complement at the beginning of my post. Beleive me if I was going to belittle you you wouldn't have to guess.P The comparison of a drake to a tornado was an example I was using from some other guy, who was posting reflexive drivel because he couldn't step out from his emotional reaction to the proposed changes. The reason I mentioned it was you were trying to equate the posting quality of both camps as you characterized this discussion. That is simply not true. That is why I brought up the flawed drake v tornado comparison.

As for plex sales, how does this change push plex sales. Whether that person is going to fly a BC or a BS in level 4s he's still going to be playing the game either way. And sure if every BC was level 4 capable there might not be a problem. But that is the point of all this, balance.

You won't get any argument from me that wormholes have been ****** from their introduction as far as balancing is concerned. I'd love to take Lili there, but the AI and environment design contain too much drone hate, capacitor and active armor hate, close range hate, etc. (And just so you know, I have multiple accounts and characters, some of which fly Drakes, Nighthawks, etc). It's like someone derped and said gee who's been having the easiest time with pve in this game, oh yeah let's create a whole new vast pve environment and npc that will select heavily for those ship types as well.What?

Lastly, as for your statment that they should just buff up the rest of the BCs, it can't happen. Because it would result in power creep and just moot all the work the are currently doing buffing frigs and cruisers. This entire set of alterations in the OP are part of a process as Fozzie explained. In order to continue that process they couldn't not trim the current strengths of HMLs and HMs. As he said, the current imbalance was touching everything they are currenlty and will be working on. Bringing the weapon system back into line will allow them to get to their grand plan of rebalancing.

I'm not thrilled with some of the changes already put in game and being proposed for frigates and cruisers. And I have so posted. But I don't think I've posted as badly when I did have fears about those changes as so many of those reacting with pain in this thread. It may because I am not so dependent on one set of advantaged ships as so many have been with Drakes and Tengus. Fozzie said congrats to those that use them so heavily. They were smart enough to gravitate toward their real advatages. But this game, any game, continues to change, if it sees itself devolving into a pattern of overused and worthless categories of mods, ships, classes, or skills.
Drumar Rotineque
Norfolk N Wayman
#2876 - 2012-09-25 00:54:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Drumar Rotineque
Lili Lu wrote:

Wow, a lot to respond to:

One, I paid you a complement at the beginning of my post.


Just checking! lol ;)

Lili Lu wrote:


As for plex sales, how does this change push plex sales. Whether that person is going to fly a BC or a BS in level 4s he's still going to be playing the game either way. And sure if every BC was level 4 capable there might not be a problem. But that is the point of all this, balance



Sure, you or I or any other other player that has already had the time to train BS's, we'll be fine. My concern is mostly for new players...it's tough when you start out. So, yes it will push for plex sales unless they are lucky enough to get into a corp with great corp mates that will send them some isk to start out.

Lili Lu wrote:


You won't get any argument from me that wormholes have been ****** from their introduction as far as balancing is concerned. I'd love to take Lili there, but the AI and environment design contain too much drone hate, capacitor and active armor hate, close range hate, etc. It's like someone derped and said gee who's been having the easiest time with pve in this game, oh yeah let's create a whole new vast pve environment and npc that will select heavily for those ship types as well.What?



At this point, I'd rather spend my time ratting in NS or mission farming versus living in a WH. They've nerfed the drops so much and the fact that from a PVP aspect, it favors the ganker WAAAAY too much. I'm not against PVP, but in a WH, you're not even caught with your pants unbuttoned....you're always caught with your pants down. However, on the plus side, I did read they are altering the AI to not hate drones so much so they can implement that AI into regular missions. So that should be fun.

Lili Lu wrote:


Lastly, as for your statment that they should just buff up the rest of the BCs, it can't happen. Because it would result in power creep and just moot all the work the are currently doing buffing frigs and cruisers. This entire set of alterations in the OP are part of a process as Fozzie explained. In order to continue that process they couldn't not trim the current strengths of HMLs and HMs. As he said, the current imbalance was touching everything they are currenlty and will be working on. Bringing the weapon system back into line will allow them to get to their grand plan of rebalancing.

I'm not thrilled with some of the changes already put in game and being proposed for frigates and cruisers. And I have so posted. But I don't think I've posted as badly when I did have fears about those changes as so many of those reacting with pain in this thread. It may because I am not so dependent on one set of advantaged ships as so many have been with Drakes and Tengus. Fozzie said congrats to those that use them so heavily. They were smart enough to gravitate toward their real advatages. But this game, any game, continues to change, if it sees itself devolving into a pattern of overused and worthless categories of mods, ships, classes, or skills.


[quote]

while I agree some nerfing is in order, I do believe that after this is implemented, it will be too much. Now, if they give an increase to HAM dps...then I can see it balancing it out...but when I was trying to decide on continuing missile training or go back to Gallente....looking at the numbers and abilities, from a PVE perspective figured the Domi and the Rattlesnake *when I finally decide to stop hording isk for PVP* were better alternatives. PVP wise...Proteus for the win. :)
Bloutok
Perkone
Caldari State
#2877 - 2012-09-25 01:01:54 UTC
CCP Fozzie.

Since you and your team are the only one who may have an idea of the complete picture once everything would be done.

Do you think that Caldari missile cruisers / BCs would see use in the next Alliance tournament besides ECM, i mean, on par with, let's say, Minmatar ?
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#2878 - 2012-09-25 01:18:21 UTC
Drumar Rotineque wrote:


Can you really consider rails a real weapon system? lol


ive only ever used rails on pve catalysts and domis...so no lol

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Drumar Rotineque
Norfolk N Wayman
#2879 - 2012-09-25 01:28:43 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Drumar Rotineque wrote:


Can you really consider rails a real weapon system? lol


ive only ever used rails on pve catalysts and domis...so no lol


You know it's a faulty system when on a Myrm with no gun bonuses, people fit ac's or arty's instead of rails, and not just because of the cap. lol Or on Talos fleet doctrines they are blasters as a meat shield *more like a paper towel* where they prefer Tornados for sniping.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2880 - 2012-09-25 01:35:19 UTC
Drumar Rotineque wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Drumar Rotineque wrote:


Can you really consider rails a real weapon system? lol


ive only ever used rails on pve catalysts and domis...so no lol


You know it's a faulty system when on a Myrm with no gun bonuses, people fit ac's or arty's instead of rails, and not just because of the cap. lol Or on Talos fleet doctrines they are blasters as a meat shield *more like a paper towel* where they prefer Tornados for sniping.

Naga tends to make a better rail sniper than the Talos and if EVE-Kill is to be believed is at least somewhat effective (being ranked 7th with 425mm rails at 14th). Also doesn't PL have a Rokh doctrine?