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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#2761 - 2012-09-24 15:17:18 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
People here either don't know a crap about what they are talking about or are completely dishonnest.

Some things to know :
- HML will only be hit by a SLIGHT nerf for their intended purpose ;
- HML are LONG RANGE weapons, they should be balanced around LONG RANGE weapons ;
- ALL other missiles will get a BUFF due to TE/TC and T2 missiles buff.
- Caracal will be BETTER.



* A slight nerf? This is a game in which people train months for a few percent improvement. CCP isn't using a scalpel here, they are using a chainsaw.

* This is only true if we assume that they will also be balanced at shorter ranges. That's not what CCP has proposed.

* All other missiles are going to get a buff (though we have to see what CCP actually does before this is worth discussing) but at the same time we also know that all other missiles are going to get a nerf with this TD thing.

* The Caracal, even with the added low slots, will do LESS dps than it does today. If I recall from the other thread, it will be doing somewhere around 250 dps, minus whatever TDs take away. In other words, it's a cruiser that has trouble actually hitting frigates or other cruisers, and pushing out T1 frigate DPS.

Quote:
Tank/dps are not the only caracteristics of a ship...


I agree. Why is it that you seem to forget this when comparing the HM Drake to other BC's?
Sinigr Shadowsong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2762 - 2012-09-24 15:24:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Sinigr Shadowsong
This whole thread would be way more productive if we knew numbers on how TD/TE/TC/TL would affect missiles. Whithout numbers it's just a wild guesses, we all know that CCP can do such extremes like +5% range per TE and +30% range per TE.
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#2763 - 2012-09-24 15:30:19 UTC
Tsubutai wrote:
The HML caracal will be mediocre. The HAM caracal has very nice dps but looks too flimsy for my liking. The RLML caracal is going to be pretty awesome, not just for killing unwary frigates but as a general purpose combat cruiser.


The AML Caracal, with all level 5 skills, will do something under 200 dps heated, and about 160 dps normally. In other words, it will do less DPS than virtually any AF -- in some cases half as much. It is even out damaged by long range frigate fits like the rail Enyo. And this ignored the proposed TD nerf.

It has no utility high slots so it cannot fit neuts, and it has only two drones, thus eliminating two of the best anti-frigate defenses in the game.

In short, the AML Caracal is probably not going to become a frigate killing machine. And against other combat cruisers, well, it's gonna get chewed up and spit out. It's role is DPS from range; it has the range, it just doesn't have the dps.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#2764 - 2012-09-24 15:37:14 UTC
Sinigr Shadowsong wrote:
This whole thread would be way more productive if we knew numbers on how TD/TE/TC/TL would affect missiles. Whithout numbers it's just a wild guesses, we all know that CCP can do such extremes like +5% range per TE and +30% range per TE.


no amount of range will offset a 20% damage nerf. imagine your employer decides to cut your salary by 20% and only gives you free coffee in exchange.

I should buy an Ishtar.
DeadNite
Absolute Order XVIII
Absolute Will
#2765 - 2012-09-24 15:37:29 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

bornaa wrote:
-> How can TD affect unguided missiles when they are stupid and skills that affect the same things don't have affect???

Through Wibbly Wobbly Sciency Wiency... Stuff


Though I can understand that unguided missiles are good lore-type elements, this is not very true to the nature of game mechanics. All missiles are guided and the only exception to this rule are bombs. Good lore doesn't necessarily translate into good gameplay mechanics as stated by various game developers throughout history.
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#2766 - 2012-09-24 15:39:09 UTC
Sinigr Shadowsong wrote:
This whole thread would be way more productive if we knew numbers on how TD/TE/TC/TL would affect missiles. Whithout numbers it's just a wild guesses, we all know that CCP can do such extremes like +5% range per TE and +30% range per TE.


True, but this is hardly useful on ships that lack the low slots to fit them -- a situation that applies to most missile boats.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#2767 - 2012-09-24 15:44:50 UTC
Doddy wrote:

All long range weapons and sometime close range weapons are generally useless against a tackler who is on position and up to speed, this is how the game works. The fact the missile user will be able to add a little (ok very little vs intys) dps to help is drones is in fact an advantage.

It's insanely powerful infact. Even now, HML do some damage to frigates, and even to interceptors. Ever tryed to tackle a tengu ? It took him almost as many time to kill me than to kill a BC, but it finaly had killed me if I hadn't warped off. Now, HML will be even more deadly to frigates.

Infact, this so called nerf will make HML boat almost immune to frigates, and any pilote who fled a long range turret ship know what this mean. This is godly. And still, HML will remain the best weapon system at range.

Range is cut indeed, but TC/TE will expand it to something even bigger than before !

And no, TD won't be an IWIN module. Remember, with TC/TE, and I bet a lot of missiles users will use it, or at least the smart ones, your range will be equivalent or higher than before, and your damage application will be hell of a lot better. TD will just put the missiles to their base stats.

BTW, sacrificing a mid slot for EWAR SHOULD give you an advantage. It's the only strength of armor tanking ! Why does everyone want to nerf EWAR to oblivion ?
Texty
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2768 - 2012-09-24 15:47:37 UTC
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
Texty wrote:
Where did the cruise missile buff go ... ? Shocked


actually, while fury cruise got a slight damage buff, they also got a exp radius nerf.
This sucks since cruise missile damage application is their bad part.

Precision are getting buffed pretty nicely which is good, but at a loss of range I think.

Yeah, Fury cruise looks like they have pretty good damage on paper, but when you actually shoot stuff in missions, where they are mainly used, the damage application is so bad (even with 3 rigor / flare rigs, 2 meta 4 TPs, and explosion velocity & radius implants) that you can actually run most of the missions faster with T1 ammo + CN launchers.

And now they say that they are planning to increase the explosion velocity and explosion radius of T2 high-damage ammo. This makes the now rarely used T2 damage ammo (except with the Tengu) even more useless. Seriously, where do you expect us to use Fury cruise? What are we supposed to shoot with it?

Yes, I know no one here cares about missions or cruise missiles. I feel like I'm posting something very off-topic but after all the title says this is a "missile rebalance" thread so ...
Doddy
Excidium.
#2769 - 2012-09-24 15:51:13 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
Sinigr Shadowsong wrote:
This whole thread would be way more productive if we knew numbers on how TD/TE/TC/TL would affect missiles. Whithout numbers it's just a wild guesses, we all know that CCP can do such extremes like +5% range per TE and +30% range per TE.


no amount of range will offset a 20% damage nerf. imagine your employer decides to cut your salary by 20% and only gives you free coffee in exchange.


If they had been giving you inflation busting pay rises for years a sthe company spiralled into debt you would probably think it was fair enough. Especially if they left you the option of another job with the same or even better pay but without the free coffee.

Bad analogies are bad.
Doddy
Excidium.
#2770 - 2012-09-24 15:54:57 UTC
Texty wrote:
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
Texty wrote:
Where did the cruise missile buff go ... ? Shocked


actually, while fury cruise got a slight damage buff, they also got a exp radius nerf.
This sucks since cruise missile damage application is their bad part.

Precision are getting buffed pretty nicely which is good, but at a loss of range I think.

Yeah, Fury cruise looks like they have pretty good damage on paper, but when you actually shoot stuff in missions, where they are mainly used, the damage application is so bad (even with 3 rigor / flare rigs, 2 meta 4 TPs, and explosion velocity & radius implants) that you can actually run most of the missions faster with T1 ammo + CN launchers.

And now they say that they are planning to increase the explosion velocity and explosion radius of T2 high-damage ammo. This makes the now rarely used T2 damage ammo (except with the Tengu) even more useless. Seriously, where do you expect us to use Fury cruise? What are we supposed to shoot with it?

Yes, I know no one here cares about missions or cruise missiles. I feel like I'm posting something very off-topic but after all the title says this is a "missile rebalance" thread so ...


They must be buffing cruise, its the most obviously broken thing in the game (even more obvious than op hmls Twisted). I would imagine they will buff them when they buff bs though otherwise it would be kinda hard to balance the raven.

It would also obviously calm down alot of angry mission runners if thier ravens were worth using again like the old days.
Sinigr Shadowsong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2771 - 2012-09-24 16:02:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Sinigr Shadowsong
Sadly Cruise and Torps won't be touched until at least next Summer Expansion.
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2772 - 2012-09-24 16:25:10 UTC
Sinigr Shadowsong wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:

I already called the SNI will become a (PvE) monster with these changes Cool


I doubt about SNI. It has good tank, but don't have nor range bonuses for torps neither enough launcher slots to make bearable dps with Cruieses. CNR and Golem on the other hand have potential for it.



Now, if only the CNR had much tanking capability, and if only the golem wasn't the most expensive pile of crap in the game.

With both ships you lose a LOT of tank to target painters and still aren't that effective.

The SNI has 8 mid slots which is perfect for a decent tank and 2 target painters.

However, it can't use torps due to no range buff and it sucks terribly bad with cruise missiles because cruise missiles suck terribly bad.



Look, with these nerfs to heavy missiles I can see exactly where they're going.
They're nerfing the range of heavies to nerf the tengu.

Once they rebalance the drake it will probably lose a good amount of EHP, but will probably get a range buff to heavy missiles.

Now, as far as this goes, it's too soon.

Heavy missiles don't need to be nerfed now, they need to be nerfed when they do battle cruiser rebalancing.
The reason I say this is cause the tengu will still fair well with the nerf, but the drake will not.

Nerfing heavy missiles now leaves missile boat pilots with nothing but the tengu until bc rebalance.
However, if the drake and tengu rebalancing comes before battleship rebalancing, the missile boat pilots will have absolutely nothing that has high efficiency in pve.(and don't try to use the golem as an example because if you've ever flown it you'd know how bad it actually is.)

So, with the projection of how things are going with ship rebalancing (we're working uphill) then the next in line will be the drake and the tengu to get nerfed (and they will be nerfed more than just heavy missile nerfs).

So, until they rebalance battleships, I'm up battlship creek slow boating with no damage...
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2773 - 2012-09-24 16:35:47 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

People here either don't know a crap about what they are talking about or are completely dishonnest.

Some things to know :
- HML will only be hit by a SLIGHT nerf for their intended purpose ;
- HML are LONG RANGE weapons, they should be balanced around LONG RANGE weapons ;
- ALL other missiles will get a BUFF due to TE/TC and T2 missiles buff.
- Caracal will be BETTER.


slight nerf?
This nerf negates have trained any missile boat that can fit heavy missiles with damage bonus past lvl 1.
Everyone of them has a 25% bonus to damage at lvl 5.
We're losing 4 lvls of dps from every ship we've trained for.
slight nerf...hmm

What they're doing to the hurricane is a slight nerf.

What they're doing to heavy missiles is neutering them.

And lets face it, there's no such thing as a slightly neutered animal.
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2774 - 2012-09-24 16:36:32 UTC  |  Edited by: HELLBOUNDMAN
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
deerin wrote:
I'll put this here again just so you guys can have an idea on how things are atm and how things are going to be:

http://imgur.com/xAlKi


The way I feel it should be(changes from the graph are underlined)

Beam lasers - best close range, worst mid range(nerf), moderate long range (buff)

Rails - worst short range(nerf), moderate mid range, best long range(good, but with some buff)

Arty - moderate short range(slight buff), best mid range(buff), worst long range(nerf, but not out of range)

heavy missiles - moderate short range(buff), moderate mid range(nerf), moderate long range(actually present/buff)

This means every weapon system has a range at which they are the king, but also a range at which they are the worst.

While missiles would never be the worst at any range, they'd never be the best at any range either.


Building each weapon system in this manner (including close range weapon systems) this would actually help to keep a check on combat so that no single weapon system would be the trump card.
This would also help to suggest a mixed fleet doctrine.

This puts all systems in check because if someone ever makes a pure fleet again, well then a mixed, or possibly pure fleet of another weapon type will be able to determine the range of combat, thus defeating the enemy by putting themselves at optimal, but not their target.

Now, it suggests to them mixed fleets because you'll be prepared for any type of fleet reguardless of what range they come in at, and you'll still be able to determine the range of battle when you attack someone else.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#2775 - 2012-09-24 16:42:21 UTC
OT Smithers wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
People here either don't know a crap about what they are talking about or are completely dishonnest.

Some things to know :
- HML will only be hit by a SLIGHT nerf for their intended purpose ;
- HML are LONG RANGE weapons, they should be balanced around LONG RANGE weapons ;
- ALL other missiles will get a BUFF due to TE/TC and T2 missiles buff.
- Caracal will be BETTER.



* A slight nerf? This is a game in which people train months for a few percent improvement. CCP isn't using a scalpel here, they are using a chainsaw.

* This is only true if we assume that they will also be balanced at shorter ranges. That's not what CCP has proposed.

* All other missiles are going to get a buff (though we have to see what CCP actually does before this is worth discussing) but at the same time we also know that all other missiles are going to get a nerf with this TD thing.

* The Caracal, even with the added low slots, will do LESS dps than it does today. If I recall from the other thread, it will be doing somewhere around 250 dps, minus whatever TDs take away. In other words, it's a cruiser that has trouble actually hitting frigates or other cruisers, and pushing out T1 frigate DPS.

Quote:
Tank/dps are not the only caracteristics of a ship...


I agree. Why is it that you seem to forget this when comparing the HM Drake to other BC's?



What if i told you there are Other missiles systems?

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2776 - 2012-09-24 16:44:18 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:

What if i told you there are Other missiles systems?


What if I told you the other missile systems suck?
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#2777 - 2012-09-24 16:57:30 UTC
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:

What if i told you there are Other missiles systems?


What if I told you the other missile systems suck?


Cry more about your wasted skill points. Let me show you my wasted titan skill points, or my wasted skill points when I was a nano pilot back in the day.

Things change, get over it and move on, in EVE you'l learn that if you want to be nerf proof, you'll train for everything, and if you dont train for everything AND you're not an innovator (you're not) then you simply shut up and deal with it while the actual innovators work out the new fits that function in a given weapons systems.

Also your quoted post about how 'weapons should be' is dumb, hth.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Doddy
Excidium.
#2778 - 2012-09-24 17:14:10 UTC
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:

What if i told you there are Other missiles systems?


What if I told you the other missile systems suck?


Then i would laugh at you.
PI Maker
Doomheim
#2779 - 2012-09-24 17:14:58 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:

What if i told you there are Other missiles systems?


What if I told you the other missile systems suck?


Cry more about your wasted skill points. Let me show you my wasted titan skill points, or my wasted skill points when I was a nano pilot back in the day.

Things change, get over it and move on, in EVE you'l learn that if you want to be nerf proof, you'll train for everything, and if you dont train for everything AND you're not an innovator (you're not) then you simply shut up and deal with it while the actual innovators work out the new fits that function in a given weapons systems.

Also your quoted post about how 'weapons should be' is dumb, hth.

congratulations, you just validated his main gripe. CCP keeps screwing up things people have invested a lot of time and ISK in. it isn't strictly about nerfs or this weapon or that ship, its about ruining long term decisions. if they want to constantly tweak things and change fundamentals, they need to have a game that doesn't force you to make decisions a year or more in advance.
TriadSte
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2780 - 2012-09-24 17:19:11 UTC  |  Edited by: TriadSte
All im gonna say is this:

Agreeing with an above poster when he states you should rebalance battlecruisers before you rebalance missiles.

If you rebalance HMLs BEFORE battlecruisers, the Drake will be capable of about 200 DPS..Lets open EFT

490 DPS Drake [all lvl5 skills no implants]

4xT2 BCU
7xT2 HML launcher w/Scourge Fury

If we take off the proposed 25% DPS we go down to 367.5 DPS; Bear in mind this is with Scourge Fury, it's BONUSED for this damage type missile. Yeah nobody uses kinetic missiles really, I would guess that EM are used most? So lets bang some T2 Mjol Fury and see the DPS..

As it is now it would pump 392 DPS minus the proposed 25% DPS nerf and that gives us a staggering 294 DPS will all lvl5 skills..

ALL LVL5 SKILLS WITH 7 PERFECTLY SKILLED HML LAUNCHERS ----- 294 DPS

CCP - seriously? your going to do this?

For comparsion lets take say a..........Tornado

800mm Repeating artillery
2 x T2 Gyro
2X T2 Tracking Enhancer

All lvl5 skills - barrage ammo [same range as HMLs and there we have 622 DPS

How is that balanced?

An Oracle can easily get into the 650 DPS range and more...

How is this balanced?

CCP your making the biggest F**K up in the history of this game, do NOT allow it to happen.