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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#2401 - 2012-09-21 16:52:08 UTC
MIrple wrote:
I think people need to understand that the ships will be balanced with HM after the patch you just need to look at the new Caracal to see that they did a great job of balancing the ship around the HM nerf. With the other additions you will have more choices of Cal ships to fly. Lets keep an open mind about this. I think if CCP could get to BCs this patch and show that the Drake will come out ok people wouldn't be as up in arms about this.

CCP the new Caracal looks great cant wait to fly it.



I think it is possible that you are overestimating how good this Caracal change actually is. People rarely fly the Caracal today. They have no reason to do so as it is significantly outclassed by the cruisers of other races. The Caracal, in it's current form, is a one trick pony, and it's not a very good trick: it can deliver T1 frigate DPS from range. This is, unsurprisingly, something that very few people are interested in.

This doesn't change with this update -- it actually get's worse. Not only will the Caracal do less DPS thanks to this nerf (even with the addition of new low slots), every other T1 Frigate and Cruiser in the game will get better. It trails now, and will trail even more post-patch. If people aren't using it now, why would they do so after nerf?

The other possibility of course, is the Caracal as an anit-frigate tool. However, once again the Caracal gains nothing from this update in that regard. It will actually be doing lower dps than it does today. And while the changes to light missiles are welcome and will make some difference, the Caracal will continue to lack the elements necessary to effective anti-frigate combat:

* It's slow
* it has no utility high slots so it cannot fit neuts
* Even with light missiles it will have a difficult time applying significant damage to AB Frigates
* It lacks drones.

In other words, this is a role that it is not terribly good at now, and it will only get worse when this patch goes live.
bornaa
GRiD.
#2402 - 2012-09-21 16:53:36 UTC  |  Edited by: bornaa
Avila Cracko wrote:
bornaa wrote:
@ CCP Fozzie

-> Why are you nerfing the range of caldari main weapon system when the caldari race are the slowest and don't have any means to dictate range???
Range on weapons were the only thing that made balance because caldari ships are too slow.
Please, include speed of ship in your balancing math!!!

-> Have you thought about increasing the speed of all missiles? I dont think it would make any major difference and missile users would love it.

-> Have you thought about making some diversity in gunnery weapons line?... like... make projectiles to do damage on the end of the cycle? and hybrids on one half of the cycle?
It would be logical because "bullet" in the space have flight time...

-> How can TD affect unguided missiles when they are stupid and skills that affect the same things don't have affect???

-> Please make new E-war for missiles... dont use the same as the turrets use... make some diversity in this game... dont make some systems OP, again!!!

-> Please think about all things that affect missiles and theirs real applied damage (flight time, smart bombs, exp speed, exp radius, defenders, ect...) before nerfing them!!!

-> Will you look into Cruise missiles and Torps?
They are ****** you know... like... how can Torps have the same range as HAMs... and are next (bigger) class of weapons... and all other large weapons have bigger range.



@ CCP
Listen to this man and many many more that are writing here before you kill one more system in EVE!!!
What we see is that you don't even consider to change something.
Missiles need buff and or balancing, depending what class of missiles you look at the moment, and not nerf.
Balance it, don't nerf it!!!

Look at the big picture and not only numbers of paper, look at real usage cases and real values that are only seen in usage and they are lower then that numbers of paper.

Its like you are trying to produce next gen of engines in labs, and they are superior in labs and you put it on the street and they are like any other engine in real usage... and then you decide to decrease its performance because its too good on paper.
You should tweak it, not ruin it.

And look at other weapons systems too, give it a little diversity, don't try to make missiles more like all others, make others less like all others!!!
Make EVE so that its feel real!!!



Thnx... Big smile

and CCP... listen to her, listen to us all!!!
[Yes, I'm an Amateur](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRa-69uBmIw&feature=relmfu)
Bloutok
Perkone
Caldari State
#2403 - 2012-09-21 16:54:44 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Drako Fontain wrote:
Here is a point I would like to make.

Do not let the age of my account fool you I have only like 3 months worth of training and play time (it was kind of hard for me to get into this game I love it now).

I have 3.5 mill sp 1 mill of it in missiles. If the proposed changes “break” missiles I am screwed. So I ask for smaller changes or implementation of changes in steps to ensure that these changes do not break missiles. Furthermore I have read many threads when deciding what weapons system I wanted to train first that said the Missiles are not great but they are good for newbs. If this is really the case why nerf missiles when lots of people in the community think they suck already?

I am a newbe so I know that I have little knowledge about the game in general so I could be just way wrong but please be careful when making changes. A 20% damage reduction = 4 levels of skill training, that is a lot of training time that is used just to overcome a nerf. So with that line of thinking would a tech 1 launcher and missile setup at level 5 before the nerf do the same about of damage as the same setup with a level 1 version of this skill after the nerf?

Fear not. The proposed changes do not break missiles.



You are right, it does not break missiles, it nukes them to oblivion. Heavy missiles to be precise.
Terik Deatharbingr
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2404 - 2012-09-21 16:55:35 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Well yeah but,... three years of ratting and they still don't have enough ISK to get that pvp ship? lol


So you want them to grind longer to get their next pvp ship, that's the point....PVP is expensive....a tech II fit BC is going to run you around 80 mil....although...you will definitely see less T3 pvping as it will create more risk aversion.

It's like the people arguing that a 100 mil sp character can make more money than a focused 20 mil sp character, which is completely inaccurate. While the 100 mil might be able to make bonuses on some afk research, indy or PI, they don't clear that asteroid or ratting site any quicker than a focused pilot with 1/4 the skills....
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2405 - 2012-09-21 17:00:56 UTC
Terik Deatharbingr wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Syzygium wrote:

Switch Explosion Velocity and Explosion Signature for HMs and HAMs and you will automatically buff HAMs slightly while nerfing HMs slightly.


This operates on the assumption that HML needs only a slight nerf. This is false. Furthermore, HAMs are getting a buff by way of the TE/TC changes.

There's been 60 pages posted since last time I perused this thread. Are there any specifics released about that BTW?

-Liang



LOL no, a whole lot of butthurt and 3+ year old characters that never progressed past a drake it seems



No, it's more like a whole lot of people ticked that their mission runner that they use to make the money they need to PVP in other ships is getting smacked down. which, in turn....will make people PVP less.

Riddle me this, all you elitest, intelligent people who are quick to say people are bad.

If someone is struggling to make money, are they not likely to hoard it and be more risk averse, aka...not PVP?

If someone has funds coming out of their butt, are they not more likely to hop in a ship to go on a PVP roam looking for a fight.

so what does this nerf really translate to? People buying plex to fund the way they want to play. Can't make the money, so I have to buy it now....think CCP isn't interested in RMT's? Try again.

Nerf Drone goo.....
Nerf Tech 1 drops....
Nerf Techtanium....
Nerf Mission Runners....
Boost mining ships to drive mineral prices down....

Since armor tanking uses mid slot cap rechargers...why isn't there a viable faction one...why can I get better cap return off a low slot cap relay when armor tanking uses lows...



This toon is just under two years old I fly all race battleship and down with T2 weapons, so tell me again, why can't you PvP?

Granted I tend to rat with my Visa, but eitherway, its not that hard to stay in ship, and a break a TON of them.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2406 - 2012-09-21 17:03:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Terik Deatharbingr wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Well yeah but,... three years of ratting and they still don't have enough ISK to get that pvp ship? lol


So you want them to grind longer to get their next pvp ship, that's the point.......



Let me clue you in on a little secret, as a Tengu and Drake pilot, if you think you are maxing your isk with either hull you are dead wrong.

Try a Machariel, damn near twice the DPS with T1 ammo, as fast as a Tengu with about the same sig.


Oh and it doesn't need pith A gear to work quickly, realatively cheap deadspace works fine.
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#2407 - 2012-09-21 17:10:38 UTC
For everyone whining about how this will break missiles. You do know that there are more then 1 type of missile in the game currently correct. If your in a Drake or Tengue switch to HAMS. You have more then enough time to train this to V by Dec so you can use the T2 variety then.
Terik Deatharbingr
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2408 - 2012-09-21 17:11:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Terik Deatharbingr
Onictus wrote:
Terik Deatharbingr wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Well yeah but,... three years of ratting and they still don't have enough ISK to get that pvp ship? lol


So you want them to grind longer to get their next pvp ship, that's the point.......



Let me clue you in on a little secret, as a Tengu and Drake pilot, if you think you are maxing your isk with either hull you are dead wrong.

Try a Machariel, damn near twice the DPS with T1 ammo, as fast as a Tengu with about the same sig.


Oh and it doesn't need pith A gear to work quickly, realatively cheap deadspace works fine.


But skill wise for noobies, it's easier to get into a drake. For older players, may not be maximizing isk with Drake, but as most have already trained as their first ship, they already have the skills and everything else are their fun ships

And also, you enforce the point that HM's are NOT as OP as everyone says they are. The people crying that the nerf is necessary, for the most part, don't believe that HML's are op...they don't like the missioning/ratting advantage that drakes have over most ships.

And you're right....they tend to have pimp fits in order to solo all the sites. Most are slow boats since they do have the range...now they will not only need to sacrifice a tank slot for a prop mod to get in range, but also a take or damage mod for te's....I'd love to see this on sisi and have people fly it...but as sisi is worthless because people can't test what they can't fly, it's pointless.
OlRotGut
#2409 - 2012-09-21 17:13:34 UTC
Fozzie, can you enlighten us with any more reflection? Has any of these posts in this thread influenced your thinking by chance?
Have we brought any good ideas to the table?
Miss Le NerfSxBye
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2410 - 2012-09-21 17:21:18 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Miss Le NerfSxBye wrote:
Lallante wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:



3. drakes have not been able to dictate range since... well... ever.

Yes they have. MWD Drake blobs kite all the time. They cant 'absolutely' dictate range against a focussed, faster opponent but they dont need to - they sit at 100km and noone approaches them. "Dictating Range" in a fleet fight IS NOT the same as dictating it in a 1v1. In a fleet fight warping and warping back in is a form of dictating range. IF a drake blob engages MWD on mass and moves away, theres not many short range platforms (if any) that can both keep in range of the majority of the blob (they might web and pick off one or two), and keep enough Cap to have a reasonable chance of actually beating the drakes.
[quote]
.

lol, how much damage do they do to a target at 100k?


Right about 400 dps, you can still get 2 BCSs with that build.

What build lets a Drake hit at 100k? I missed that one somewhere.
The Bazzalisk
One Risky Click
Snuffed Out
#2411 - 2012-09-21 17:28:03 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
Sarah Schneider wrote:
The Bazzalisk wrote:
Again, I say HMLs are not OP compared to other LR platforms. Close up, other LR platforms will all have similar performance to the HML with short range ammo. At long range there are other factors to consider. You can't just say 'HML does x damage at x range, other medium guns do y damage at y range thus HMLs are overpowered'

On an unbonused ship, using short range ammo, the stats are as follows.

Heavy Beam Laser - 37dps, 159 alpha
250mm Railgun - 34dps, 161 alpha
Heavy Missile Launcher - 31dps, 264 alpha
720mm Artillery Cannon - 28dps, 424 alpha

Those numbers look fairly balanced to me. Ah you say - but HML can shoot to much further range than these guns with that dps, and at long range it will trump them completely.

Not true. The only time HMLs are really going to be used past 40k is in gang fights, and in gang fights there are logis and travel time. The travel time will negatively affect the dps, and makes the alpha much less significant due to the extra time logistics pilots have to prepare.

At medium-long range, HML will have the best dps - but it can be affected by other factors which other medium guns will not be.

Firewalling only affects missiles.

At that kind of range, assuming the guns are in their optimal ranges, the guns will not really be affected by tracking much. Missiles are always affected by radius/velocity.

Guns can use tracking computers and tracking enhancers to mitigate range/tracking issues. Missiles cannot do the same for their radius/velocity.

Guns apply instant dps or big instant alpha strikes in the case of artillery. Missiles do not do the same.

Guns can switch between long range and short range ammo, and at short range, a long range gun with short range ammo will trump the dps of a HML. A HML cannot switch to another type of missile to get more dps.

QFT. Seeing some people seems to deliberately skipped these facts and go straight to "hell yeah! nerf dem HMLs!!!" for some reason.

Some poeple maybe don't want to expend effort to debunk the flaws in the quoted post. Oh well, here goes,

What point is it to compare weapons without ship bonuses for those weapons. They simply don't get fit without the ship bonuses.
An all level 5 skilled character, for ease of comparison only since we all know most people usually train spec skills to 4, tech II high damage ammo, and no damage mods (just the guns man) can do the following with a
7 x HBL II Gleam Harby - 323 dps (7.5 optimal) (1395 volley)
7 x 250mm Rail II Javelin Brutix P - 298 dps (9.0 optimal) (1406 volley)
6 x 720mm Arty II Quake Hurricane - 281 dps (7.5 optimal) (3177 volley)
7 x HML II Fury Drake - 271dps (75.9 optimal -> realistic 72km range) (2310 volley)

Notice the big diference the guns less than 10km (not 40km) and the missiles 70+km. You are comparing very short range performance against a weapon system built for range and it still is competitive. BUT, then plug in the long range tech II ammo and
Harby 184 dps, 54 optimal, 787 volley
Brutix 170 dps, 65 optimal, 804 volley
Cane 161 dps, 54 optimal, 1815 volley
Drake 271 dps, 70+ optimal, 2310 volley still

And yes most people fight in gangs, small or large, with tackle distributed. Drakes often are shooting past 40km in those situations. Regardless, the turret ships have to be within scram and web range to apply their slight dps advantage with short range ammo. The Drake wins at anything over about 10-12km well within a boosted point range at around 25-30km. The travel time at those distances will mean squat. If those turret ships are fitting an armor tank they won't be catching the Drake, and if shield fit it is flimsy and probably around half the Drake's tank.

Now some of this ignores the use of TEs or TCs but those things compete with damage mods, tackle, or tank and other things a short range ship needs to do it's job. But it was your example.

Firewalling is only really ever used in blobs. It is not always effective, and even when it is it's not like some manuvering can't get the missile stream around the wall. Firewalling was a suboptimal strategy bourne of the lack of a dedicated anti-missile ewar in the game. It will quite possibly be gone once TDs start affecting missiles as well as turrets.

And in case you missed it it is not only TDs that will have a missile effect it will also be TEs and TCs. Welcome to the wonderful world of ftting choices. A world that has been heretofore only inhabited by turret boats.

Instant damage does not matter unless you are in a mixed gang and seeking killmail glory. And even there look at the drone boat. He's waiting longer for his weapons to reach the target (and don't mention sentries for pvp with a straight face for anything other than gate or station camping). In a fleet action travel time doesn't matter for a missile fleet because the bubbles or Lach/Hugi combo are your tackle. Everyone's missiles will be traveling.

And notice the volley on the Drake at 70km v the Cane at 70km.

I think you need to get some experience with guns. I've got experience with both weapons. Do you? Training specs on 3 types of guns at all sizes and missiles at all sizes is a *****, but once you are there you notice these things. It gives you more of a perspective on the game than just oh boo hoo they're nerfing the weapon system I use.
I use both missiles and projectiles on a daily basis.
Miss Le NerfSxBye
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2412 - 2012-09-21 17:29:55 UTC
MIrple wrote:
For everyone whining about how this will break missiles. You do know that there are more then 1 type of missile in the game currently correct. If your in a Drake or Tengue switch to HAMS. You have more then enough time to train this to V by Dec so you can use the T2 variety then.


LOL HAMS maybe if they let guided missile precision work on unguided missiles they would be useful. I remember my main being ripped a new one by a Ninja (Rifter) while flying a heavy fit Caracal. When they have a skill that gives you the chance to do more damage with one weapon system over nix on another which weapon system would you use?
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#2413 - 2012-09-21 17:31:29 UTC
Miss Le NerfSxBye wrote:
Onictus wrote:
[quote=Miss Le NerfSxBye][quote=Lallante][quote=Daniel Plain]

Right about 400 dps, you can still get 2 BCSs with that build.

What build lets a Drake hit at 100k? I missed that one somewhere.


Put a rig on it and you can do this

[Drake, 100K Drake]

Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Capacitor Power Relay II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
EM Ward Field II
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
[Empty High slot]

Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I
Medium Rocket Fuel Cache Partition I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

hits out to 108 and can target to 120

~360 Dps 75k tank
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#2414 - 2012-09-21 17:32:30 UTC
Miss Le NerfSxBye wrote:
MIrple wrote:
For everyone whining about how this will break missiles. You do know that there are more then 1 type of missile in the game currently correct. If your in a Drake or Tengue switch to HAMS. You have more then enough time to train this to V by Dec so you can use the T2 variety then.


LOL HAMS maybe if they let guided missile precision work on unguided missiles they would be useful. I remember my main being ripped a new one by a Ninja (Rifter) while flying a heavy fit Caracal. When they have a skill that gives you the chance to do more damage with one weapon system over nix on another which weapon system would you use?


This will be where TE or TC come into play.
Bloutok
Perkone
Caldari State
#2415 - 2012-09-21 17:33:17 UTC
[Drake, Drake 2 copy 1]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Damage Control II

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Warp Disruptor II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
[empty high slot]

Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I
Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I

109.7 km with my skills. I am pretty much maxed out when it comes to range. EFT.
Sinzor Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#2416 - 2012-09-21 17:55:52 UTC
The idea for missile TD: "Launcher sequence disruptor".
When applied on a ship, induces some probability that a missile would not activate on launch - i.e. it just disappears, without hurting anyone.
That way, missile ships still can dictate the range - but now they could be countered. Should be more interesting than just copy-pasting trackdis and naming it "missile-dis". And at least it sounds like it has something to do with the real world.
Miss Le NerfSxBye
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2417 - 2012-09-21 17:57:57 UTC
@ Bluotok and @Mirple.

Thanks for that fit, I seem to be having some issues quoting here. I'd never considered rigs other than extenders or em/therm (brainwashed into more tank, more tank). I could see how these would be annoying.

@Mirple
But my point is I've always preferred HML over HAM because of the guided missile precision skill. HAM's being not that good against frigs etc I'd assume other people would have this perception as well and would this not be adding to the imbalance between HAM and HML use?
James1122
Perimeter Trade and Distribution Inc
#2418 - 2012-09-21 18:03:20 UTC
Hi CCP Fozzie

Overall I have to say I really like the missile changes. It definitely brings them much more in-line with the other long range weapon systems. This confidence in what you've done is also boosted by what I've seen you propose as changes to the Caracal as it shows that you aren't doing this as a blanket nerf but you are actually looking at each of the individual ships. I have faith that you will equally balance the remaining missile ships as and when you get around to them.

However I was hoping that you could please comment a bit more on the hurricane changes, in particular around how hard these changes make it to fit a 1600plate + full rack of guns, especially when compared to the relative easy still in which you can fit a shield hurricane. I'm not sure if this is what you intended or if its just an unforeseen effect. But if you could shed some light on what you meant to happen here I would be grateful.

James

....
Aprudena Gist
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2419 - 2012-09-21 18:04:26 UTC
You idiots talking about 100k drakes understand you only get about 70-80% of the "range" on a missle ship right? go try and hit sometimes in game with those fits you wont ever.
Errand Girl
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2420 - 2012-09-21 18:05:41 UTC
Fozzie, I'm kind of impressed you're still reading this monster. To be honest, I'm fairly surprised that I'm still reading it....

Can you let us know if your position on the HML changes has moved at all after 120+ pages and counting, or is the current plan still to implement what is shown in the OP?

Pretty much every useful point on each side of each argument has been stated by now and this thread is going in circles. Part of the reason for that is that there isn't actually a lot of information for people to look at. The data on existing weapon systems has been analyzed pretty thoroughly, but that only tells us what the current state is not what these changes will mean. For example, depending on how big the missiles bonuses are for TC/TE and TD, this could be an improvement for missiles or it could be even worse than some of the biggest haters fear.

Will you share with us your specific thought processes and the data you looked at to determine that both a 25% range nerf and a 20% damage nerf is appropriate? If CCP is serious about player feedback, this seems like an obvious step. Without this data, an awful lot of this feels like a gotcha. "I know why I'm making these changes, and you have to guess why".

Will you share with us specific bonuses that are being considered for TC/TE as well as TD? Without a better idea of numbers here, we're all pretty much guessing what the end impact will be.