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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2321 - 2012-09-21 14:05:41 UTC
Hannott Thanos wrote:
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:

The drake doesn't have much capabilty to fit TCs if it wants to maintain EHP and still have web and scram.

I can see where this could be problematic.

Ever used turrets and ships with 3 mids?



No, but here's a fun build you'll like

Hurricane (all skills lvl 5)

highs
6 x 425mm AC II
2 x small energy neut II

mids
warp scrambler II
stasis Webifier II
2 x Tracking disruptor II (exp velocity/exp radius script)

lows
2x gyrostabilizer II
Damage control II
Medium armor rep II
explosive Hardener II
Kinetic hardener II

rigs
anti-thermic pump I
2 x trimark armor pump I

stats

Capacitor
2m 20sec
With armor rep off - 9m 54s (stable by turning off one neut)

Dps
Hail - 593 @ 1.5+9km
Barrage - 423 @ 3+18km

Velocity - 182m/s

EHP - 42,284


With tracking disruptors, this fit will pwn drakes, and it will fit the reduced PG nerf coming to the hurricane
bornaa
GRiD.
#2322 - 2012-09-21 14:06:13 UTC  |  Edited by: bornaa
@ CCP Fozzie

-> Why are you nerfing the range of caldari main weapon system when the caldari race are the slowest and don't have any means to dictate range???
Range on weapons were the only thing that made balance because caldari ships are too slow.
Please, include speed of ship in your balancing math!!!

-> Have you thought about increasing the speed of all missiles? I dont think it would make any major difference and missile users would love it.

-> Have you thought about making some diversity in gunnery weapons line?... like... make projectiles to do damage on the end of the cycle? and hybrids on one half of the cycle?
It would be logical because "bullet" in the space have flight time...

-> How can TD affect unguided missiles when they are stupid and skills that affect the same things don't have affect???

-> Please make new E-war for missiles... dont use the same as the turrets use... make some diversity in this game... dont make some systems OP, again!!!

-> Please think about all things that affect missiles and theirs real applied damage (flight time, smart bombs, exp speed, exp radius, defenders, ect...) before nerfing them!!!

-> Will you look into Cruise missiles and Torps?
They are ****** you know... like... how can Torps have the same range as HAMs... and are next (bigger) class of weapons... and all other large weapons have bigger range.
[Yes, I'm an Amateur](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRa-69uBmIw&feature=relmfu)
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#2323 - 2012-09-21 14:07:24 UTC
MIrple wrote:
Hannott Thanos wrote:
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:

The drake doesn't have much capabilty to fit TCs if it wants to maintain EHP and still have web and scram.

I can see where this could be problematic.

Ever used turrets and ships with 3 mids?


A Drake also has 4 low slots.

Which can all be used for damage mods. Imagine you had 20 km range and had to use lowslots for tank, dps and range mods. People who use Drakes are spoiled and are now brought in line with the rest of us. Welcome to the world of mortals

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Terik Deatharbingr
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2324 - 2012-09-21 14:10:31 UTC
Lallante wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:


you are missing a few things:
1. long range medium turrets are not exactly popular to begin with. if you nerf HMLs down to their level, they will just become equally useless. that's like killing your neighbor's wife because your own wife is an ugly *****.

Yes and no. Yes, the medium guns are not popular, but this is a problem with the platforms NOT the guns themselves. The DPS output, range and tracking is balances as against short range guns. The issue is the long range platforms are completely outclassed by tier3 BCs. Boosting the long range cruisers is the correct balancing step - and one I'm sure CCP will take when they get to tech2 cruisers.
Quote:

2. you don't need piloting skills to mitigate missile damage. just be small and fast, that's it.

Exactly. With guns you can be "small and fast" OR use pilotting skill. Missles have a big advantage AND don't fully "miss" so can still force (for example) a tackling inty off the field even with anemic damage.
Quote:

3. drakes have not been able to dictate range since... well... ever.

Yes they have. MWD Drake blobs kite all the time. They cant 'absolutely' dictate range against a focussed, faster opponent but they dont need to - they sit at 100km and noone approaches them. "Dictating Range" in a fleet fight IS NOT the same as dictating it in a 1v1. In a fleet fight warping and warping back in is a form of dictating range. IF a drake blob engages MWD on mass and moves away, theres not many short range platforms (if any) that can both keep in range of the majority of the blob (they might web and pick off one or two), and keep enough Cap to have a reasonable chance of actually beating the drakes.
Quote:

4. arguing paper dps is stupid. it's applied dps that matters and the average applied dps of heavy missiles is arguably worse than at least beams and arty and will be even more so after the frigate and cruiser buffs.

"Arguing on paper is stupid, therefore I'll just shoot my mouth off based on my gut feeling (and did I mention I only fly drakes and Tengus so I'm not at all biased) and not produce ANY evidence"

If HMLs are arguably worse than beams and arty, howecome drakes and tengus are the most popular ships? Both the usage statistics AND the paper figures back up the belief that HMLs are OP. Cerbs and Nighthawks are underpowered, but will be addressed when CCP gets to tech 2 ships next year. barely anyone flies them atm so its hardly a disaster to have to wait.

You are also wrong about applied dps. In current fleet warfare, the 10 second (max) delay before missle dps is applied is meaningless, and there is no damage mitigation against the equal sized targets you normally see in fleets.


You obviously don't understand usage statistics...it's not about their DPS, esp with the drake....it's about the balance of tank and with enough DPS to get by.

You obviously don't do fleet battle as I watch as it takes just as long to kill a zealot as it does for them to kill a drake...why damage mitigation and having reps on the target before the first volley even hits.

You want to help your argument...then Change from Damage and Precision ammo to close range and long range ammo....give us, like guns a higher close range missile and a lower longe range and make the TE and TC affect exp radius and exp velocity as well as range...then it won't be the nerf everyone sees that it's going to be.
Bloutok
Perkone
Caldari State
#2325 - 2012-09-21 14:10:51 UTC
Lev Arturis wrote:
Bloutok wrote:
Why is almost no one adding the ship speed to balancing ?

Why is the nerfing of other ships abilities, like shield resist, not included in the overall math ?

Why is the question : After all is done, would anyone still use it ? asked ?



Sure they do (see Caracal rework) but battlecruisers or any other hulls are not yet done.

How about you press the little "DEV POSTS" button on the very top of the forum and look for
CCP Fozzie's statements. Read them carefuly and if that isn't helping do it a 2nd time but
don't waste our time anymore.



I love empty posts..... Seriously. Go away.
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2326 - 2012-09-21 14:11:07 UTC
Hannott Thanos wrote:
MIrple wrote:
Hannott Thanos wrote:
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:

The drake doesn't have much capabilty to fit TCs if it wants to maintain EHP and still have web and scram.

I can see where this could be problematic.

Ever used turrets and ships with 3 mids?


A Drake also has 4 low slots.

Which can all be used for damage mods. Imagine you had 20 km range and had to use lowslots for tank, dps and range mods. People who use Drakes are spoiled and are now brought in line with the rest of us. Welcome to the world of mortals



Except they can't be all used for damage mods.

You'll lose a lot of ehp just by dropping the tank mods out of the low slots.

Now, imagine that and the fact that your mids are dedicated to prop foulers and tank so you can't fit mods to increase effective dps, velocity, or other ewar.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2327 - 2012-09-21 14:13:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
Hannott Thanos wrote:
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:

The drake doesn't have much capabilty to fit TCs if it wants to maintain EHP and still have web and scram.

I can see where this could be problematic.

Ever used turrets and ships with 3 mids?



No, but here's a fun build you'll like

Hurricane (all skills lvl 5)

highs
6 x 425mm AC II
2 x small energy neut II

mids
warp scrambler II
stasis Webifier II
2 x Tracking disruptor II (exp velocity/exp radius script)

lows
2x gyrostabilizer II
Damage control II
Medium armor rep II
explosive Hardener II
Kinetic hardener II

rigs
anti-thermic pump I
2 x trimark armor pump I

stats

Capacitor
2m 20sec
With armor rep off - 9m 54s (stable by turning off one neut)

Dps
Hail - 593 @ 1.5+9km
Barrage - 423 @ 3+18km

Velocity - 182m/s

EHP - 42,284


With tracking disruptors, this fit will pwn drakes, and it will fit the reduced PG nerf coming to the hurricane


Lol

No prop mod, are you hoping that they are afk?

Not to mention you can't hit to point range.......
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#2328 - 2012-09-21 14:14:47 UTC
bornaa wrote:


-> Please think about all things that affect missiles (flight time, smart bombs, exp speed, exp radius, defenders, ect...) before nerfing them!!!

Yeah I bet they NEVER thought of that Roll

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2329 - 2012-09-21 14:17:17 UTC
Onictus wrote:
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
Hannott Thanos wrote:
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:

The drake doesn't have much capabilty to fit TCs if it wants to maintain EHP and still have web and scram.

I can see where this could be problematic.

Ever used turrets and ships with 3 mids?



No, but here's a fun build you'll like

Hurricane (all skills lvl 5)

highs
6 x 425mm AC II
2 x small energy neut II

mids
warp scrambler II
stasis Webifier II
2 x Tracking disruptor II (exp velocity/exp radius script)

lows
2x gyrostabilizer II
Damage control II
Medium armor rep II
explosive Hardener II
Kinetic hardener II

rigs
anti-thermic pump I
2 x trimark armor pump I

stats

Capacitor
2m 20sec
With armor rep off - 9m 54s (stable by turning off one neut)

Dps
Hail - 593 @ 1.5+9km
Barrage - 423 @ 3+18km

Velocity - 182m/s

EHP - 42,284


With tracking disruptors, this fit will pwn drakes, and it will fit the reduced PG nerf coming to the hurricane


Lol

No prop mod, are hoping that the are afk?

Not to mention you can't hit to point range.......


Why do you need a prop mod when you can get right on top of them with 2 neuts and 2 disruptor to kills their exposion radius/velocity and neut away whatever cap mods they might be using.
Shadalana
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2330 - 2012-09-21 14:18:12 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Here are some raw numbers useful for understanding the proposed HML, beam laser and artillery changes:

250mm Railgun II with Spike:
DPS: 20
Alpha: 92
Optimal: 65 km
Falloff: 15 km
Cap/sec: -1.1
PG: 187.2
CPU: 31.5

Heavy Beam Laser II with Aurora:
DPS: 21
Alpha: 91
Optimal: 54 km
Falloff: 10 km
Cap/sec: -3.8
PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5)
CPU: 27.8

720mm Artillery II with Tremor:
DPS: 17
Alpha: 242
Optimal: 54 km
Falloff: 22 km
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5)
CPU: 24

Heavy Missile Launcher II with Caldari Navy Scourge:
DPS: 23 (previously 29)
Alpha: 189 (previously 237)
Range: 63 km (previously 84)
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 94.5
CPU: 41.3

This is without any ship bonuses. My view on this is that a 25% range and a 20% dps nerf only seem ridiculous if one ignores just how much better HMLs were than other weapon systems.


Maybe im blind, but i did the same in eft and i got really different values... o.O

all numbers with AllV, without shipbonuses. also I compared only t2 missiles... ('cos no one uses faction-hm ammo in PvE)

250mm Railgun II with Spike:
DPS: 20
Alpha: 92
Optimal: 65km
Time to hit: instant

Heavy Beam Laser II with Aurora:
DPS: 21
Alpha: 91
Optimal: 54km
Time to hit: instant

Heavy Missile Launcher II with Scourge Precision:
DPS: 21
Alpha: 179
Reichweite: <42km
Time to hit: 10 seconds

720mm Howitzer Artillery II with Tremor:
DPS: 16
Alpha: 242
Optimal: 54km
Time to hit: instant


why I do not see any inbalance?
Bloutok
Perkone
Caldari State
#2331 - 2012-09-21 14:18:23 UTC
Hannott Thanos wrote:
bornaa wrote:


-> Please think about all things that affect missiles (flight time, smart bombs, exp speed, exp radius, defenders, ect...) before nerfing them!!!

Yeah I bet they NEVER thought of that Roll


I wonder......
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2332 - 2012-09-21 14:18:58 UTC
Hannott Thanos wrote:
bornaa wrote:


-> Please think about all things that affect missiles (flight time, smart bombs, exp speed, exp radius, defenders, ect...) before nerfing them!!!

Yeah I bet they NEVER thought of that Roll



Honestly, I wouldn't have put it past them to have missed this....

Kinda like missing that a super carrier would pwn everything if allowed to use all drone types.

Oops, that happened.

/fixed a while after the blobs hit.
Luther Anneto
Frequency Unknown
#2333 - 2012-09-21 14:22:57 UTC
You Know I quit Playing MMO's like WoW because of their constant "rebalancing". And to be these proposed changes sound very familiar with the "Omg that class needs a nerf" I started playing eve because from what I had heard and read about There wasn't much of that here. From everything I have read Caldari has always been the Best PVE platform, but if your going to change that because Some PvP'ers got butt hurt. Than this game is no better than any other MMO I have ever played and My respect and interest in this game is going to be on the same level as all the Past MMO's I have played and quit. Like Most Eve players I have multiple accounts and one of my accounts is a industry account When you did the rebalance to the mining barges it was beneficial and what what i have seen created more interest in MIning, But this proposed "rebalance" as I said previously in this post sounds no different than "Nerf that Class because they are better than I am". I know my opinion is only one of so very very many, But i really feel that if these proposed changes are carried through I will have no other option than to once again find yet another game to hold my interest. I really enjoy playing EVE, but I started playing EVE because it WASN'T your typical MMO and if it is going to go that route than as much as I would hate to do My interest would have to go else where. Please re-think these changes. Subscription(s) pending.
Cadesc
Exotic Dancers Union
#2334 - 2012-09-21 14:23:36 UTC
about the TD:

have you considered this idea?

Quote:

flare launcher

idea:
Flares seems to be the logical defence mechanism against missiles.
The goal is to reduce missile damage to small ships, by reducing their signatur radius or increasing the missiles explosion radius.
It should be an area of effect (aoe?) module (stacking vs not stacking?). So every ship inside of the area would have a smaller signatur radius or every missile hitting a ship inside of the area would have an increasing explosion radius.
Maybe you could switch between explosion radius increase and signatur radius decrease by switching scripts (ammunition).

-- Mid slot (maybe high slot? maybe just new ammonistion for missile launcher?)

grafics:
Just look at this pictures! I'm sure CCP would do a good Job on this task. :P
flares!!!
more flares!
and one more!

Why would it be awsome?
-new tactical possibilities (small ships -> agile -> formate to get more advantage from a single module)
-awsome look
-countermeasure to target painters
-new mechanism
-new skill
-missiles would still have their big advantage to always deal damage
-...but you could reduce the damage effectively


about missile:
Missiles have their very own disadvantages. You should not give them all the disadvantages of turrets as well, otherwise they become useless in pvp.

Advantage missile compared to turrets:
-you can’t and you don’t need to fit tracking modules
-missile damage is difficult to avoid
-they deliver their ‘full’ (depending on speed and signature radius) damage at maximum range

Disadvantage missile compared to turrets:
-you can’t snipe with missiles (flight time)
-range varies with targets speed and alignment (flight time)
-you can’t increase your damage by maneuvering well
-you can approach a missile boat directly
-missile damage does not increase if a target comes closer
-no lucky shots
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2335 - 2012-09-21 14:23:39 UTC
Well.

I guess I'm going to start ignoring this thread because the conversation is going in CCP's left ear and out the right.


These nerfs will not change by release.


So, I guess I'lll just start training WINMATAR. Seems to be the best route at this rate anyway.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2336 - 2012-09-21 14:25:30 UTC
Shadalana wrote:
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Here are some raw numbers useful for understanding the proposed HML, beam laser and artillery changes:

250mm Railgun II with Spike:
DPS: 20
Alpha: 92
Optimal: 65 km
Falloff: 15 km
Cap/sec: -1.1
PG: 187.2
CPU: 31.5

Heavy Beam Laser II with Aurora:
DPS: 21
Alpha: 91
Optimal: 54 km
Falloff: 10 km
Cap/sec: -3.8
PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5)
CPU: 27.8

720mm Artillery II with Tremor:
DPS: 17
Alpha: 242
Optimal: 54 km
Falloff: 22 km
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5)
CPU: 24

Heavy Missile Launcher II with Caldari Navy Scourge:
DPS: 23 (previously 29)
Alpha: 189 (previously 237)
Range: 63 km (previously 84)
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 94.5
CPU: 41.3

This is without any ship bonuses. My view on this is that a 25% range and a 20% dps nerf only seem ridiculous if one ignores just how much better HMLs were than other weapon systems.


Maybe im blind, but i did the same in eft and i got really different values... o.O

all numbers with AllV, without shipbonuses. also I compared only t2 missiles... ('cos no one uses faction-hm ammo in PvE)

250mm Railgun II with Spike:
DPS: 20
Alpha: 92
Optimal: 65km
Time to hit: instant

Heavy Beam Laser II with Aurora:
DPS: 21
Alpha: 91
Optimal: 54km
Time to hit: instant

Heavy Missile Launcher II with Scourge Precision:
DPS: 21
Alpha: 179
Reichweite: <42km
Time to hit: 10 seconds

720mm Howitzer Artillery II with Tremor:
DPS: 16
Alpha: 242
Optimal: 54km
Time to hit: instant


why I do not see any inbalance?


Try it with lead on the hybrid, depleted uranium on the arty and radio on the beam.

Bet you see a difference when you stack T1 ammo to T1 ammo.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2337 - 2012-09-21 14:30:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
Well.

I guess I'm going to start ignoring this thread because the conversation is going in CCP's left ear and out the right.


These nerfs will not change by release.




So, I guess I'lll just start training WINMATAR. Seems to be the best route at this rate anyway.


This is a case where going FOTM may be a bad idea, you may note the cane getting nerfed as well.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#2338 - 2012-09-21 14:33:23 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

The Nighthawk died the day the Drake was introduced. Resurrecting it is definitely on the to-do list but first we need a relatively stable platform upon which to build its bonuses.



just increase the base PG and give it an extra mid slot plus increase the cpu...

there fixed...

now that was not hard was it?

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Allandri
Liandri Industrial
#2339 - 2012-09-21 14:33:59 UTC
+1 to all proposed changes
Bloutok
Perkone
Caldari State
#2340 - 2012-09-21 14:34:49 UTC
Onictus wrote:
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
Well.

I guess I'm going to start ignoring this thread because the conversation is going in CCP's left ear and out the right.


These nerfs will not change by release.




So, I guess I'lll just start training WINMATAR. Seems to be the best route at this rate anyway.


This is a case where going FOTM may be a bad idea, you may note the cane getting nerfed as well.


Cane nerf ?

It's still faster and whatever you put on it, it's stil gonna DPS you to death or GTFO... because it's faster.......

Speed anyone ?