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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

First post First post First post
Author
Katharina B
Covenant Trading Agency
#2221 - 2012-09-21 07:55:42 UTC
Onictus wrote:
I lol'd

You can't do stop the thief without heavy missiles?

Try it with a domi, that is easy easy with sentries unless you really hose the triggers, plus you don't care if you get scrammed, because you aren't moving anyway.


I want to see your sh!t domi when the NPC's switch the targets. Roll
Akrasjel Lanate
Immemorial Coalescence Administration
Immemorial Coalescence
#2222 - 2012-09-21 07:55:59 UTC
Katharina B wrote:
Hazen Koraka wrote:
So... 110 pages of mostly people against these changes.

When will Fozzie respond with his counter argument? Or will he let this thread rumble on until Winter when they go ahead with the changes anyway, regardless of feedback? Cmon Fozzie, we want feedback too!


Here is MY PERSONAL feedback:
Two accounts cancelled - You lost a more than 4 years paying customer!

In addition to the missile nerf CCP will also bring an AI boost for NPC's in missions. These NPC's will switch targets. At the first look it seems to be a good idea. At the second look it is a typical darft idea from CCP. Mission "Buzz Kill" and "Stop The Thief" are just two of more missions where every pilot will have problems with his drones. (ELITE) Frigs are at 65km+ at the beginning, you start your drones but they will be destroyed before they reach the enemy frigate. If you call back your drones they are to far away to reach your ship befor they are destroyed. What have we than? A scrambled ship without drones and less damage with missiles or more damage with the stupid TE+TC but horrible less tank. Good job CCP.

As Caldari pilot I end my career in New Eden.
From a RP point I could say I grab my ISK buy me a planet or at least a little moon somewhere and can live like a god for the rest of my life.
From a RL point I MUST SAY, that CCP do never think about changes and their consequences. And ever ask the wrong people who do not have skilled what they intent to nerf next. Evil

Bye folks. It was a pleasure for me to be part of this community for 4.5 years. But now it is time to travel on.
O7

P.S.: No! You can not have my stuff. Remember? I want to buy me a planet or a little moon. Blink


Rage quit best quit

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude

Katharina B
Covenant Trading Agency
#2223 - 2012-09-21 07:59:21 UTC
Akrasjel Lanate wrote:


Rage quit best quit


It is not a rage quit. It is a well considerated step. So please stop trolling dude. Lol
Eve has lost its glamour for me. You do not know me. So do not arrogate to knwo that this is a rage quit!
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2224 - 2012-09-21 08:04:41 UTC  |  Edited by: HELLBOUNDMAN
My most important comment to make on the subject is.


CCP...

PLEASE, for the love of Marauders!!!

Wait until you've buffed the rest of the missile boats before you go nerfing the only two effective ships we have!!!


(DISCLAIMER: I don't care about the troll posts of other players who claim that many other missile boats are effective in pvp when we all know they're little more than bait, extra dps, or just there to drop a bomb and then become a bonus if they stay alive because this doesn't make them effective)
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2225 - 2012-09-21 08:17:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Il Feytid
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
My most important comment to make on the subject is.


CCP...

PLEASE, for the love of Marauders!!!

Wait until you've buffed the rest of the missile boats before you go nerfing the only two effective ships we have!!!


(DISCLAIMER: I don't care about the troll posts of other players who claim that many other missile boats are effective in pvp when we all know they're little more than bait, extra dps, or just there to drop a bomb and then become a bonus if they stay alive because this doesn't make them effective)

The Drake and Tengu will still be good, maybe still holding onto the "Go Drake/Tengu or go home!" title they have now after the change. Just remember. Things could be worse for the Drake and Tengu. They could be Gallente.
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2226 - 2012-09-21 08:20:28 UTC  |  Edited by: HELLBOUNDMAN
Marlona Sky wrote:
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
My most important comment to make on the subject is.


CCP...

PLEASE, for the love of Marauders!!!

Wait until you've buffed the rest of the missile boats before you go nerfing the only two effective ships we have!!!


(DISCLAIMER: I don't care about the troll posts of other players who claim that many other missile boats are effective in pvp when we all know they're little more than bait, extra dps, or just there to drop a bomb and then become a bonus if they stay alive because this doesn't make them effective)

The Drake and Tengu will still be good, maybe even holding onto the "Go Drake/Tengu or go home!" title they have now. It could be worse, it could be Gallente.


Yeah, but my concern is pve really.

Right now the tengu is the most efficient missile boat in pve.

This IS in part due to the OP nature of the tengu, however, the tengu is outperformed by t1 and t2 bs' without missile specialization in pve.

So, this is to say that the rest of the missile boats capable of lvl 4 missions are quite lack luster.

I'm willing to lose my tengu as my mission boat, however, I'd like to get a missile boat bs that is as capable as the current tengu before this nerf bat hits.
Signal11th
#2227 - 2012-09-21 08:31:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Signal11th
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
My most important comment to make on the subject is.


CCP...

PLEASE, for the love of Marauders!!!

Wait until you've buffed the rest of the missile boats before you go nerfing the only two effective ships we have!!!


(DISCLAIMER: I don't care about the troll posts of other players who claim that many other missile boats are effective in pvp when we all know they're little more than bait, extra dps, or just there to drop a bomb and then become a bonus if they stay alive because this doesn't make them effective)

The Drake and Tengu will still be good, maybe even holding onto the "Go Drake/Tengu or go home!" title they have now. It could be worse, it could be Gallente.


Yeah, but my concern is pve really.

Right now the tengu is the most efficient missile boat in pve.

This IS in part due to the OP nature of the tengu, however, the tengu is outperformed by t1 and t2 bs' without missile specialization in pve.

So, this is to say that the rest of the missile boats capable of lvl 4 missions are quite lack luster.

I'm willing to lose my tengu as my mission boat, however, I'd like to get a missile boat bs that is as capable as the current tengu before this nerf bat hits.



CNR/Golem? Used both and the Tengu, Both are better at certain missions than the other.

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!

Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
#2228 - 2012-09-21 08:33:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Rommiee
Signal11th wrote:
Ufortunately although I admire your sentiment people always say "I'm off" and don't actually go through with it. I'll be staying because I like EVE and will just buy the ship that hasn't been nerfed and that will still do the same job.

It doesn't change the fact that I think it's run by people who really don't understand their user base even after so many cockups and apologies and their little lapdogs with their holier than thou attitudes.


Spot on dude
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2229 - 2012-09-21 08:38:36 UTC
Katharina B wrote:
In addition to the missile nerf CCP will also bring an AI boost for NPC's in missions. These NPC's will switch targets. At the first look it seems to be a good idea. At the second look it is a typical darft idea from CCP. Mission "Buzz Kill" and "Stop The Thief" are just two of more missions where every pilot will have problems with his drones. (ELITE) Frigs are at 65km+ at the beginning, you start your drones but they will be destroyed before they reach the enemy frigate. If you call back your drones they are to far away to reach your ship befor they are destroyed. What have we than? A scrambled ship without drones and less damage with missiles or more damage with the stupid TE+TC but horrible less tank. Good job CCP.


65+ km is quite nice distance for my Apoc...

And yes, you can do Stop the Thief with turret ship.
Mira Luhtanen
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2230 - 2012-09-21 08:39:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Mira Luhtanen
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Tracking/Range Mods and Ewar
-These changes apply equally to guided and unguided missiles
-Modify tracking enhancers and tracking computers to affect:
Max flight time (with optimal range script)
Explosion radius and explosion velocity (with tracking speed script)
-Make TDs affect Missiles
Tracking speed disruption script lowers explosion velocity and increases explosion radius
Optimal range disruption script lowers flight time

oh god why

you know what just give missile launchers a sig res and tracking speed

who even cares
Kesthely
Mestana
#2231 - 2012-09-21 08:46:18 UTC
Ok, first of all let me set something straight that has been bugging me for a few pages of reading now:

Beam Harby pilots do exist! I use both Harby and Drake as long range ships and i know of there strengths and weaknesses.

http://kb.fleetofthedamned.net/index.php/pilot_detail/1582977350/ships_weapons/

(Drake 2nd most used ship) (99% of the time HML setup)
(Harbinger 3rd most used ship) (99% of the time Beam setup (Heavy or Focused)

If you want to truelly compare Drakes and harbingers you should take everything in account. In skirmish warfare the armor Beam Harbinger is superior too the drake in almost every way. In my setups the harby has more dps, the same effective hp, aproximatly the same speed instant damage and a lot faster locking time. I've flown both the Harbinger and drake hundreds of times, and gotten 186 (harby) vs 211 (drake) kills with it. And still i always prefere the harbinger. The fact that the drake has more kills, is not because of HML - Beam weapon difference, its not because of inherent design flaws of either ship or weapon system because of 2 reasons.

1) Shield fleets go out more often then armor fleets so you get more use of them
2) Blob warfare uses drakes because there easier to skill for, cheap and nearly everyone can use them

I've had my share of skirmish and blob warfare and the ONLY reason that blob warfare uses drakes is the combined Effective HP, easyness to train, and cost effectiveness. In true blob warfare where you have multiple fleets on each side you'll see the following, People with more ship options join there respective fleets eg armor hac Alpha mael and then everyone thats left is told to get into a drake. This is not a design flaw of the HML but of the drake.

Now haveing said that there are a few things i do want to point out towards the HML proposed changes:

Rebalancing the HML is a good thing. I favor the range decrease, especially since the announced TC, TE will allow you to customize your range to a degree that the gun users currently can.

What i fear however is that the HML damage balance is only looked on at its max range to balance it there. As said by myself in previous posts, as well as many others, missile launcher users currently don't have the option to switch to short range damage missiles that have the same range, damage and tracking (read explosion radius/velocity) bonuses, nor do they have the option to change to longer range versions. If you look at a damage graph of a gun, and would theoreticly cycle at each independant range to a ammo thats best suited for that range you get a nice curve of damage gradually decreasing in damage over range.
With Missiles you have a straigth line.

While practicly its impossible to switch to ammo for ever range if you look at this curve and the current missiles the damage output is switched from lower to higher somewhere nearly in the middle. This Straigth line of dps is then further amplified by the fact that you can get good and perfect hits vs always the same damage of missiles. In that sense the theoretical missile is balanced.

A comparison to the practical weapon effectiveness is a little difficult to see without calculating in all those factors; different ammo's from short to long range, its tracking bonuses wich indirectly also affect the chance of good and perfect hits, vs the missile always the same damage from 0 to max range without able to crit.

If you want the missiles to behave with guns, fine, but then let them behave like guns. Give us the High damage, high exlosive velocity, small explosive radius Fury missile, the standard faction missiles and the long range Precision missiles. Give the missiles a comparable damage output at every range instead of one range. Or if you don't like that idea, (wich i don't) check out a few other options to balance the HML missile:

Switch (and or adjust) the power need for Heavy Assault Missile Launchers and Heavy missile launchers
Adjust the power amount of the drake the same as you did with the Hurricane, EG: allow just enough power for 7 HML launchers, a TII link, and a Medium shield extender or 7 HAM a TII link and a Large shield extender

Buff the HAM launcher damage so that ships bonused for the HAM (like sacrilege) don't want to use a different system, and those with bonuses for both want to use the ranges the rest of the fleet is useing instead of one range fits all.

Buff the speed and explosion radius/velocities of the HAM missile so there in line with the short range gun counterparts. High velocity, extreme short flight time of the unguided missiles (read UNGUIDED) shouldn't be a engine or lore problem. In the redesigned caracal i can see the strange scenario that the ship is faster then its HAM missiles.

But most importantly: If you have the time please redesign the drake at the same time as all the other Medium missile useing ships and release them simultaneously

Also note, that the missile redesign heavily threads on the Medium variant. This suggests that the ratio's for small and large missile delivery systems are more in line. With the 6.66% velocity change of Heavy missiles, you have a different missile velocity for one type of missile that look really odd. Have you realized that the heavy missiles will be faster then the light missiles (wich in my eyes should be designed to shoot the relative faster moveing frigate sized ships) Wouldn't it be more logical, to keep the velocity the same but reduce the flight time? In that sense wouldn't it be more logical that the light missile is faster then and the cruise missile slower then the heavy missile?

PS: it would be a great help to try to determine the missile rebalance changes if there would be values to the TE, TC, TD, Fury Rage Javelin and Precision missile changes. Currently we have to make guesses of there influence wich tends to lead to unfounded conclusions


Soon Shin
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#2232 - 2012-09-21 08:48:57 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Soon Shin wrote:
The New tracking disruptors however will. Imagine a significant reduction in range or tracking reduction against missiles and turrets. All you need is a single module and can change scripts on the fly to affect all dps ships in the game.


How about this:
- Two scripts for every weapons system in game (8 scripts in total) and for example projectile range disruption script doesn't have any effect on lasers, hybrids or missiles.
- Switching script takes 30-60 seconds
- When switching scripts you can't activate any other module or move


Still doesn't make a difference you don't get it.

Why make such ridiculous limitations that overall changes nothing.

Just make a missile disruptor and leave td as it currently is.

You will have to choose between fitting one OR the other not both.
Katharina B
Covenant Trading Agency
#2233 - 2012-09-21 08:51:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Katharina B
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Katharina B wrote:
In addition to the missile nerf CCP will also bring an AI boost for NPC's in missions. These NPC's will switch targets. At the first look it seems to be a good idea. At the second look it is a typical darft idea from CCP. Mission "Buzz Kill" and "Stop The Thief" are just two of more missions where every pilot will have problems with his drones. (ELITE) Frigs are at 65km+ at the beginning, you start your drones but they will be destroyed before they reach the enemy frigate. If you call back your drones they are to far away to reach your ship befor they are destroyed. What have we than? A scrambled ship without drones and less damage with missiles or more damage with the stupid TE+TC but horrible less tank. Good job CCP.


65+ km is quite nice distance for my Apoc...

And yes, you can do Stop the Thief with turret ship.


... which I have to train from beginning with 0 SP. Roll
Too much work and especially TIME/MONEY to reach the exact same goal with another race what I have compared now with caldari.
Does someone even read ALL of the posted text? It seems that a few people just read
"Missile.. Stop The Thief.. Quit" and than present another worthless option to compensate a nerf of 4.5 years of skillset.Blink
Lord Balrog DUAN
sakuer J Corporation
#2234 - 2012-09-21 08:51:13 UTC
Heavy missile, farewell!
BTW,ecm is the next to balance? Or weaken?
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2235 - 2012-09-21 08:58:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Katharina B wrote:
... which I have to train from beginning with 0 SP. Roll
Too much work and especially TIME/MONEY to reach the exact same goal with another race what I have compared now with caldari.
Does someone even read ALL of the posted text? It seems that a few people just read
"Missile.. Stop The Thief.. Quit" and than present another worthless option to compensate a nerf of 4.5 years of skillset.Blink


That's like someone saying "use Drake" to me and I say "but my dps is horrible with just minimum amount of SP in missiles".

But that's the fact that I have to deal with until I can start training missiles after I finish with guns.

But 4,5 years to train Caldari and heavy missiles...
Ghazu
#2236 - 2012-09-21 08:59:04 UTC
Akrasjel Lanate wrote:
Katharina B wrote:
Hazen Koraka wrote:
So... 110 pages of mostly people against these changes.

When will Fozzie respond with his counter argument? Or will he let this thread rumble on until Winter when they go ahead with the changes anyway, regardless of feedback? Cmon Fozzie, we want feedback too!


Here is MY PERSONAL feedback:
Two accounts cancelled - You lost a more than 4 years paying customer!

In addition to the missile nerf CCP will also bring an AI boost for NPC's in missions. These NPC's will switch targets. At the first look it seems to be a good idea. At the second look it is a typical darft idea from CCP. Mission "Buzz Kill" and "Stop The Thief" are just two of more missions where every pilot will have problems with his drones. (ELITE) Frigs are at 65km+ at the beginning, you start your drones but they will be destroyed before they reach the enemy frigate. If you call back your drones they are to far away to reach your ship befor they are destroyed. What have we than? A scrambled ship without drones and less damage with missiles or more damage with the stupid TE+TC but horrible less tank. Good job CCP.

As Caldari pilot I end my career in New Eden.
From a RP point I could say I grab my ISK buy me a planet or at least a little moon somewhere and can live like a god for the rest of my life.
From a RL point I MUST SAY, that CCP do never think about changes and their consequences. And ever ask the wrong people who do not have skilled what they intent to nerf next. Evil

Bye folks. It was a pleasure for me to be part of this community for 4.5 years. But now it is time to travel on.
O7

P.S.: No! You can not have my stuff. Remember? I want to buy me a planet or a little moon. Blink


Rage quit best quit


christ can you post something that is a sentence and not an emote or a meme.

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984

Katharina B
Covenant Trading Agency
#2237 - 2012-09-21 09:09:56 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:


But 4,5 years to train Caldari and heavy missiles...


Perhaps I have misunderstood this part of your post or you just want to troll me. It is not so that I have learned 4.5 years just for Heavy missile and Drake. It is that I have learned to fly my caldari ships with all Level 5. But with TD-crap and missile nerf + boosted AI in missions, it seems to be a hard job if I do my missionrunning after thnis winter.
100% caldari, nearly 80 Mill SP total and a lot of free unallocated SP. But I do NOT use this to learn a second race, because of one brain fart from CCP.
I just quit eve. Should CCP find another customer. Whatever! Thats not my business anymore.
Sinigr Shadowsong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2238 - 2012-09-21 09:15:06 UTC
Raven, CNR, Navy Scorp and Golem will become much better for PvE than now, so you can continue to run missions as pure Caldari.
Soon Shin
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#2239 - 2012-09-21 09:20:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Soon Shin
I will guarantee that the majority of ships you will encounter will fit a TD, if allowed to affect all weapons with a change of a script.

TD were not overly prevalent due to being useless against missile ships. You fitted one on expectations of fighting a turret ship, if you guessed wrong you had a module that was useless for the situation and just wasted a midslot.

But if these changes happen you remove the stragedy and thinking of fitting a TD or not. You now just fit one and pretty much win if your opponent doesn't have a TD of their own.

This will become a must have module to fit in order to be competitive and will become a severe issue in the game. Even Fozzie acknowledges that such a problem could happen.

But this can all be avoided if ccp makes a separate module for missile disruption.
Katharina B
Covenant Trading Agency
#2240 - 2012-09-21 09:20:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Katharina B
Sinigr Shadowsong wrote:
Raven, CNR, Navy Scorp and Golem will become much better for PvE than now, so you can continue to run missions as pure Caldari.

With TD and defenders in my missions? With a switching NPC's who kills my drones and leave my ship scrambled allone?
To compensate this TD-crap I have to weaken my tank to use TC or TE. No thanks.
Why do you think that the rest of the caldari ships will get a boost? TD will affect ALL missiles. And to counter against this crap I have to reduce my tank massively.

So please explain.. WHY will the "Raven, CNR, Navy Scorp and Golem will become much better for PvE than now"? Not just claiming.. deliver facts please.