Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I personally don't care about the drake, I do howeve care about heavy missiles.

If they nerf range by 25% then the drake will have a max of 56km.

This sucks and without factoring missile acceleration.

It's 8km less than a harbinger, which is the shortest possible max range of the tier 2 bc's.

Now, with a 20% dps nerf as well, it will lose 52 dps without dps modules.

Honestly, if they just swapped the range of precision and fury missiles for all guided missiles then it would be much more balanced without any direct missile nerfs.

I have in several places, but you've conveniently ignored it.

HE reposted it. As if anyone wanted to read through all that.

lol, terrible comparison is of ships (and turret ships with tes at that ...) not weapons. Take perfect skill char, 3 damage mods heavy launchers and any of the (highest tier) turrets, place them on an unbonussed hull on eft and compare the different ammo types.

5*Heavy launcher 2, t1 missile,3bcu - possible range - 84.4k* - dps 206
5*720 artillery 2, emp, 3 gyro - optimal 15k (+22) - dps 208
5*heavy beams 2, multi, 3 heat sink - optimal 15k (+10) - dps 261
5*250mm rail 2, antimatter, 3 mag stab - optimal 18k - dps 248

the point at which the missiles are out dpsing the turrets thanks to fall off is around 17-24k depending on the turret type Of course within this range is just where turrets are suffering tracking issues, yay .......

By the time you get to mid range ammo;

5*heavy launcher 2, t1 missile, 3 bcu - possible range - 84.4k* - dps 206
5*720 artillery 2, depleted U, 3 gyro - optimal 30k (+22) - dps 139
5*heavy beams 2, standard, 3 heat sink - optimal 30k(+10) - dps 174
5*250mm rails 2, lead, 3 mag stab - optimal 36k (+15) - dps 165

So they all do less dps than missiles and can't match thier range at all even allowing for missiles playing catch up on any but the fastest targets.

If you are unlucky enough not to have t2 ammo and have to use long rage t1 you are really screwed;

5*heavy launcher 2, t1 missile, 3 bcu - possible range - 84.4k - dps 206
5*720 artillery 2, carbonized L, 3 gyro - optimal 48k (+22) - dps 87 (lol)
5*heavy beams 2, radio, 3 heat sink - optimal 48k (+10) - dps 109
5*250mm rails 2, antimatter, 3 mag stab - optimal 58k (+15) - dps 103

Thats right, to match the effective ranges of missiles with t1 ammo you do half (or even less) the damage.

t2 ammo makes it all better right? well lets see

5*heavy launcher 2, fury missiles, 3 bcu -possible range - 75.9k* - dps 264
5*720mm 2, quake, 3 gyro, - optimal 7.5k (+22) - dps 243
5*heavy beams 2, gleam, 3 heat sink - optimal 7.5k (+10) - dps 305
5*250mm rails 2, javelin, 3 mag stab - optimal 9k (+15) - dps 289

ok so as long as you are not using artillery you out dps missiles, but only at very close range. The point at which fall-off leaves missiles top dog again is 12-14k which of course is where tracking is messing with you, good thing ccp gave that ammo a tracking bonus tbh.

Long range t2 ammo should be good though;

5*heavy launcher2, t1 missile (no "range" t2 for missiles), 3 bcu - possible range - 84.4k* - dps 206
5*720mm 2, tremor, 3 gyro - optimal 54k (+22) - dps 139
5*heavy beam 2, aurora, 3 heat sink - optimal 54k (+10) - dps 174
5*250mm 2, spike, 3 mag stab - optimal 65k (+15) - dps 165

So even here you wont out range the missiles unless the target is mobile, and your dps is considerably worse.

Comparing on ships is dumb. The hurricane has a dual weapon bonus, comparing its damage with drake ignores a certain 5% resist bonus. Adding tes ignore the tanking mods a drake can put in those lows. It is precisely because drake can project damge without using slots that it is so popular.

All of it ignores the fact ccp is still to balance battllecruisers. The above figures show pretty clearly that heavy missiles are a bit off, anyone who thinks they are fine is kidding themselves. To even get close to missile damage projection a turret pilot MUST have t2 trained, which of course is a grind, and he must then use t2 ammo where the missile pilot can use t1 or upgrade to faction for more loldps. From 24k to the point missiles run out of gas (84k stationary target) missiles outdps all turrets. You can throw the targets sig/velocity in there but they effect turret tracking to a greater or lesser degree as well (especailly at close range which is where turrets supposedly outdps the missiles).

As it stands missiles have a big raw advantage but with several drawbacks;

Many kinetic damage specific bonuses - ccp seems to be getting rid of these for general bonuses
No mods to increase range or accuracy - ccp wants to add these
effected by defenders - largely irrelevant in pvp, quite telling in pve
effected by smartbombs - occaissionally an issue in pvp, never in pve (except you can't run your own smarty without losing dps)
flight time - irrelevant in pve, important in pvp at longer ranges especially (the balancing factor?) - ccp want to reduce this.

and some advantages;

no cap use (same with projectiles)
damage type freedom (same to an extent with projectiles)
not effected by tracking disruptors - ccp wants to change this.



*i know, it will be shorter v fast target not moving towards you.

Underlined the parts where you are wrong.

A Harbinger with heavy beams, all level 5 skills, and Aurora M has an optimal of 54 and a fallof of 10, not an optimal of 64. As for the range you state for heavy missiles I think you overstate the reduction. True a reduction on range if fury continues to have it's current stats would be 56.9km, but faction ammo (which does not have as much range or damage on a turret) will have a range of 63.3km. And, if you read the op the acceleration range penalty with missiles is being addressed with coding changes apparently.

Secondly, if you swapped the fury and precision ranges there would be no frigate or destroyer that would be safe. Currently those ships have a reason to fear turrets at range. But if they get close they can enjoy a light show because the turrets will not hit them at all. With missiles they can essentially shrug off HM damage unless they get close and the HM ship switches to precision (which will be getting a buff). If precision, especially a buffed precision, heavy missile had long range a frig would be never safe against a HML.

This picture is complex. People need to read more and slow down. In the end, the usage stats on Drakes and Tengus had to end. Noone was chosing these ships for aestetic reasons. They were and are getting used so much more than other ships because they are and have been better than the alternatives in their classes and even other classes of ships. Read this post again https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1942484#post1942484

Like I've stated before, t1 and faction ammo would balanced around this structure as well.

So, it would be like looking at unguided missiles, on better range and less dps.

You mean where I pointed out that nobody uses medium LR weapons, and when prompted on it nobody gives justification as to why they'll magically start doing so once HMs are nerfed?

Yeah, I do kind of ignore points that don't really address my questions.

So, you're telling to just use faction ammo?
This is kinda a problem with guided missiles as is.

Now, with my suggested changes, this is fixed



A frig @ over 42 km away from a targetted drake, is essentially useless at attacking the drake anyway.

Now, when it comes to missiles, frigs a cruisers can use their sig and a prop mod to their advantage and speed tank them quite well.

Like I said, all you need to do is outrun the explosion velocity.

Guys, I hate to tell you this but Fozzie has stopped reading this thread knowing that it was going to be a hot topic. His mind is already made up and he will not be persuaded until he makes the changes he proposed. This will be the second and probably the final nerf to missiles as this will cause most people to come to the conclusion that the flight time and the applied damage to targets will be sub-par with this weapon system.

It is interesting to note that a lot of EVE users have trained into missiles and when this nerf does come to fruition, many will be frustrated with all the time they invested into that weapon system only to see it broken.

For those players that use missiles as thier only weapon system, they will have to sink another 2-3 months into another weapon platform and possibly longer to train into a different ship to be viable again. For that person, that 2-3 months will seem like an eternity and they just might say forget it, I'm done.

I've seen this behavior with game developers before with many MMO's that eventually lost its player base due to its inabilty to listen to its players or correct its changes fast enough. Sadly by the time the game company realizes it, its always too late as they will never get those players back. Ever. I foresee some fallout from this as we all know from history that once CCP goes through with its intended plan, it never goes back. Only time will tell how big or how much of an impact this will have.

You can do either that or fit TCs or TEs like turret ships have to to get more range. Btw, want to swap Caldari Navy Scourge for navy radio, iron, or nuclear ammos? You might want to swap for navy Multifreak, Antimatter, or Fusion, but then oh well no range. Faction ammo is a mixed bag for turrets. Faction ammo is pretty much always worth it with missiles.


What part of buff to precision are you not reading? But I suppose you want them to splat frigs in one volley at any range. Sorry that's never going to happen. Missiles always hit. They will have to live with some damage reduction even after a buff. It is the exchange for not having tracking. It is a difference in the weapons that will be retained. We all have to decide on which to use from the tradeoffs.