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Crime & Punishment

 
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The reality of the goon freighter ganking in Uedema and neighboring systems.

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betoli
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#181 - 2012-09-18 20:09:59 UTC  |  Edited by: betoli
Dirk Magnum wrote:

1. use a scout Shocked


One thing I've not picked up on the lolthread yet is how a scout helps you spot a gank thats not logged in yet. WTF are you supposed to do not go through any gates with any players nearbye.

Also people suggesting using the starmap kills to avoid ganks - we are talking freighters here, there can't be that many freighter kills - i'd be surprised if goons aren't kerspoding themselves to manipulate the maps stats to steer prey through the systems they're camping*.

But mainly.... WTF are people carrying blueprints in a freighter?

* goons if your not, please put 1B isk in my account for the idea.
Samahiel Sotken
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#182 - 2012-09-18 20:11:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Samahiel Sotken
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Well you could make sure to fit your freighter's module slots with tank fittings... oh wait it doesn't have any module slots. ...


I've championed something similar to this in previous freighter threads. With the caveat that I believe the current freighter EHP is more than enough for the upper end. Bluntly, the freighter is a flying canister for low cost high volume products. There are much better options for cargo of any value that can and should be used. That being said, uncertainty is the heart of strategy; and I would love to see a variation in freighter fittings allowing for faster align times or large cargo holds at the expense of EHP.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#183 - 2012-09-18 20:13:50 UTC
PI Maker wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Just to point out, a good number of these frieghters are being killed off the gates which means no sentries

and not near a station either, right? or the station guns would get you. i think.


We are talking around one million km away from gates.Blink
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#184 - 2012-09-18 20:18:11 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Well you could make sure to fit your freighter's module slots with tank fittings... oh wait it doesn't have any module slots.

Hmm, I think I see the real problem here.

I'm being serious. If you fly an industrial ship you have options. If you want to take more risk you can fit it with cargo expansion modules & rigs. If you want to haul something valuable you can (sort of) tank it up a bit and make it harder to gank. Of course nothing is ever 100% gank proof, but you can make the potential ganker have to recalculate your EHP and force them to sacrifice more disposable alt ships to the job, which may tip the scales over to "not worth it" - which is your only real security but a form of security none-the-less. If all else fails you can just jump into a covert ops hauler and tell the gankers to suck it.

In other words, with industrial ships there are player options that let them decide if they want more cargo or more safety. Freighters, on the other hand, only come in four effectively identical flavors; all of them unarmed, no weapons, no drones, and no module slots or even rig slots in which to change anything.

If CCP were to make freighters into actual ships and not just flying cargo canisters this problem might change, or at least it would become a problem where you would have more of a leg to stand on when people cry about being ganked (i.e. "Should have fitted it with tank instead of sacrificing EHP for cargo, then.") This lack of options makes freighters easy to gank in another way, too, being as without any potential for variation once you know how many disposable alts it takes to pop one open the first time you now have the winning formula that will work every time without exception. This means that the logistics of ganking a freighter can be set in stone and no tactics or variations are required to do it.

Conclusion: Make freighters real.



Or you can not stuff 22 billion in there. The ships are fine, its the people using them thats causing the problems.
Buck Futz
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#185 - 2012-09-18 20:19:50 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Well you could make sure to fit your freighter's module slots with tank fittings... oh wait it doesn't have any module slots.

Hmm, I think I see the real problem here.

I'm being serious. If you fly an industrial ship you have options. If you want to take more risk you can fit it with cargo expansion modules & rigs. If you want to haul something valuable you can (sort of) tank it up a bit and make it harder to gank. Of course nothing is ever 100% gank proof, but you can make the potential ganker have to recalculate your EHP and force them to sacrifice more disposable alt ships to the job, which may tip the scales over to "not worth it" - which is your only real security but a form of security none-the-less. If all else fails you can just jump into a covert ops hauler and tell the gankers to suck it.

In other words, with industrial ships there are player options that let them decide if they want more cargo or more safety. Freighters, on the other hand, only come in four effectively identical flavors; all of them unarmed, no weapons, no drones, and no module slots or even rig slots in which to change anything.

If CCP were to make freighters into actual ships and not just flying cargo canisters this problem might change, or at least it would become a problem where you would have more of a leg to stand on when people cry about being ganked (i.e. "Should have fitted it with tank instead of sacrificing EHP for cargo, then.") This lack of options makes freighters easy to gank in another way, too, being as without any potential for variation once you know how many disposable alts it takes to pop one open the first time you now have the winning formula that will work every time without exception. This means that the logistics of ganking a freighter can be set in stone and no tactics or variations are required to do it.

Conclusion: Make freighters real.



Oh god, please give freighters lowslots. There was a 175 page threadnaught about how CCP has concluded that giving carebears fitting choices beyond the cosmetic is a bad thing.

Hint: they will just use them for cargo expanders and turn their freighters into 50K EHP punching bags.
Samahiel Sotken
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#186 - 2012-09-18 20:21:01 UTC
betoli wrote:
Dirk Magnum wrote:

1. use a scout Shocked


One thing I've not picked up on the lolthread yet is how a scout helps you spot a gank thats not logged in yet. WTF are you supposed to do not go through any gates with any players nearbye.

Also people suggesting using the starmap kills to avoid ganks - we are talking freighters here, there can't be that many freighter kills - i'd be surprised if goons aren't kerspoding themselves to manipulate the maps stats to steer prey through the systems they're camping*.

But mainly.... WTF are people carrying blueprints in a freighter?

* goons if your not, please put 1B isk in my account for the idea.


We are a lazy and superstitious lot. Many times we just have the DPS idling in system on standby which is perfectly scoutable. we only use logoff traps when we know you, want to kill you for some specific reason, and know where you'll be. When fishing it's usually not worth the effort.

Really pirate avoidance boils down to lowering your profile. Not going through system we can prestage, not being on autopilot, having a webber, not having enough valuable cargo. You take even a modicum of these precautions and I guarantee there's a juicier target one or two jumps ahead of you that we'll go for instead.
Idris Helion
Doomheim
#187 - 2012-09-18 20:34:08 UTC
Buck Futz wrote:
Oh god, please give freighters lowslots. There was a 175 page threadnaught about how CCP has concluded that giving carebears fitting choices beyond the cosmetic is a bad thing.

Hint: they will just use them for cargo expanders and turn their freighters into 50K EHP punching bags.



That's what would happen: too many pilots choose cargo over tank. Look at all the s**t-fit Hulks prior to the recent patch. You could tank a Hulk to be damned near un-gankable, but many pilots didn't simply because they craved the extra m3 of cargo. The same thing would happen with freighters.

Besides, the Orca fills this particular role quite nicely already. It's got huge EHP, decent tank options, and a cargo-hold that not only hides your stuff from prying eyes but destroys your stuff rather than dropping it if you do get ganked. And it can carry fitted ships. Yes, it has much less cargo space than a freighter, but it's still more than sufficient for most hisec hauling jobs where you have to transport moderately expensive cargo.

If you're moving *extremely* expensive stuff, you should be using a blockade runner or a cloaked covops frigate. Speed rather than tank is your friend if you're moving small but valuable cargo (like BP's or PLEX). And you should never carry all of your stuff in a single load: split up the cargo and make several trips.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#188 - 2012-09-18 20:48:21 UTC
betoli wrote:
Dirk Magnum wrote:

1. use a scout Shocked


One thing I've not picked up on the lolthread yet is how a scout helps you spot a gank thats not logged in yet. WTF are you supposed to do not go through any gates with any players nearbye.

Also people suggesting using the starmap kills to avoid ganks - we are talking freighters here, there can't be that many freighter kills - i'd be surprised if goons aren't kerspoding themselves to manipulate the maps stats to steer prey through the systems they're camping*.

But mainly.... WTF are people carrying blueprints in a freighter?

* goons if your not, please put 1B isk in my account for the idea.



Hey look. a ship sitting on grid doing NOTHING. This what you should look for. If there is nothing you passed the first test. They need someone who can see the gate to get in fast before you can align and warp away. If they don't want to have someone sitting at gate, they can probably scan it and then be on the ball to warp to gate and crash land on you to bumb you off align. If they bumb you, you have limited time to reac now becasue you are basicly already in thier net. Your freighter cannot align faster than teh bumper can bumb you over and over again but you still need to move fast or you will die. THier dps ships are burning toward gate. The setup is going.

The next thing they want is to possibly lead you away from potential gate gun. If teh accomplish, the full concord reaction time will help them because they don't ahve to fit the required tank to deal with teh guns. They would do this be repeatedly bumping you away from the gate. It takes time. This is your cue.

Your action comes here. You have one chance and need to not lose it. Before you ever get into pvp mode, you need to be off the game. The more time you spend crying in game about being stuck in their net, the less chance you have. There is only ONE way to move at that point. You need to figure this oen point yourself. The bad news is they have a way to counter this possibility. Do it fast or your chance is lost.

If you didn't move because you were busy flooding your mom's basement with your tears or becasue it was denied, just go away. THere is no used in staying there. They closed to net on you and are about to reel you in.

As for manipulating the star map kill reports, it's useless. They kill lazy people who won't look at the map anyway. There is a fast route from jita to amaar for example. Everybody use that route. Need need to mess with kill report spam to trap lazy people.

And again for extra emphasis. There are 2 rules to avoid ganking in a freighter.

> 2bill in cargo
no wraps
PI Maker
Doomheim
#189 - 2012-09-18 20:56:48 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
PI Maker wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Just to point out, a good number of these frieghters are being killed off the gates which means no sentries

and not near a station either, right? or the station guns would get you. i think.


We are talking around one million km away from gates.Blink

i was trying to help keep your secret with an indirect question P

so is the goal to intentionally get people to log off? or are they just coincidentally using a similar tactic to move high value loads, thinking they can log? if the ganks occur mainly off gate it would also mean that the concord response fleet was never on the grid in the same place, removing the need to pull concord around after the first attempt. no gate guns, so tier3 bc gets the full response time. would an offgrid booster pick up gcc or flagging?
HollyShocker 2inthestink
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#190 - 2012-09-18 20:57:04 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Wyke Mossari wrote:
BillyBanter wrote:
They could also change how bumping things. A ship locking down a massive freighter is somewhat of a joke and is very abusable, as such they effectively act as warp scramblers on a freighter in empire space, to keep in pinned down, without the retaliation from concord.

How is that not abuse of a game system?


Bumping mechanics are pretty broken, a speed boat trying to bump an oil tanker would end up as drift wood.

The same should be true in EvE.


You want an ibis to pierce a hole in your capital? Cuz they are both made out of trit. The fast projectile ship could penetrate the armor same as steel shells fired from tank would penetrate steel plates. Going full realism has drawback sometime.



Simple physics....Force=mass times acceleration F=MA
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#191 - 2012-09-18 21:00:07 UTC
PI Maker wrote:

i was trying to help keep your secret with an indirect question P




We spent 6 months telling miners exactly how to avoid being ganked, provided them with fits, tactics and even how to track us in local. Hundreds died.

These people seem to be just as daft.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#192 - 2012-09-18 21:05:07 UTC
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Wyke Mossari wrote:
BillyBanter wrote:
They could also change how bumping things. A ship locking down a massive freighter is somewhat of a joke and is very abusable, as such they effectively act as warp scramblers on a freighter in empire space, to keep in pinned down, without the retaliation from concord.

How is that not abuse of a game system?


Bumping mechanics are pretty broken, a speed boat trying to bump an oil tanker would end up as drift wood.

The same should be true in EvE.


You want an ibis to pierce a hole in your capital? Cuz they are both made out of trit. The fast projectile ship could penetrate the armor same as steel shells fired from tank would penetrate steel plates. Going full realism has drawback sometime.



Simple physics....Force=mass times acceleration F=MA


http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/wysiwyg/image/1_car_crushed_between_trucks.jpg

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#193 - 2012-09-18 21:07:42 UTC
BillyBanter wrote:
The problem here is it's way too easy, and too cheap, to get hugely profitable kills.

It's risk vs reward, the risk isn't much, it's known to and accepted by the ganker long before weapon is fired. A simple solution would be to increase freighter HP by 300%. 100k EHP isn't very much for what is supposed to be EVE's largest freight vessel.

The pilot growing a fully functional brain is a nice enough buff for freighters.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#194 - 2012-09-18 21:14:35 UTC
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Wyke Mossari wrote:
BillyBanter wrote:
They could also change how bumping things. A ship locking down a massive freighter is somewhat of a joke and is very abusable, as such they effectively act as warp scramblers on a freighter in empire space, to keep in pinned down, without the retaliation from concord.

How is that not abuse of a game system?


Bumping mechanics are pretty broken, a speed boat trying to bump an oil tanker would end up as drift wood.

The same should be true in EvE.


You want an ibis to pierce a hole in your capital? Cuz they are both made out of trit. The fast projectile ship could penetrate the armor same as steel shells fired from tank would penetrate steel plates. Going full realism has drawback sometime.



Simple physics....Force=mass times acceleration F=MA


Interceptor + armor plates + mwd = ultimate kinetic missile
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#195 - 2012-09-18 21:27:31 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
PI Maker wrote:

i was trying to help keep your secret with an indirect question P




We spent 6 months telling miners exactly how to avoid being ganked, provided them with fits, tactics and even how to track us in local. Hundreds died.

These people seem to be just as daft.


Slight derail... why have the suicide gankings of exhumers moreless ceased? Last I checked, an untanked mackinaw (which is quite prevalent) has only 15k EHP.... cheapfit dessies should easily make a meal of it!!
Sola Mercury
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#196 - 2012-09-18 21:40:00 UTC
Bring a Rapier as webber.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#197 - 2012-09-18 21:52:42 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


Slight derail... why have the suicide gankings of exhumers moreless ceased? Last I checked, an untanked mackinaw (which is quite prevalent) has only 15k EHP.... cheapfit dessies should easily make a meal of it!!


Cant make a profit on them anymore which means we cant do a long term war on them.
Rath Kelbore
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#198 - 2012-09-18 22:03:34 UTC
Why is it, in my 4 or so years of EVE, I've yet to be suicide ganked?

I have left freighters floating around on Jita 4-4 for hours due to alt tabbing and forgetting about them. I've done the same thing on gates in pimped out mission ships, and all manner of stupid actions which should have resulted in me being suicide ganked. I feel left out to be honest.

I plan on living forever.......so far, so good.
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#199 - 2012-09-18 22:09:51 UTC
Rath Kelbore wrote:
Why is it, in my 4 or so years of EVE, I've yet to be suicide ganked?

I have left freighters floating around on Jita 4-4 for hours due to alt tabbing and forgetting about them. I've done the same thing on gates in pimped out mission ships, and all manner of stupid actions which should have resulted in me being suicide ganked. I feel left out to be honest.

Actually that's a really good point... it highlights why threads like this are so lame. The behavior of pilots in EvE is one of total indifference. Lots of people do what Rath is saying... I do too. It's not just because I'm lazy, but rather because in practice a freighter gank is a rare thing. Sure people come on the forums and talk a lot of smack, and that may make it look like a common thing... but if HS ganking of freighters were so common, a successful gank wouldn't be newsworthy and players would change their behavior. As it is, suicide ganking is a relatively rare thing, people still leave lots of freighters just floating around trade hub gates for hours, and you should feel frickin' honored if your freighter is selected for a gank, because odds are it's won't be.

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#200 - 2012-09-18 22:13:51 UTC
Rath Kelbore wrote:
Why is it, in my 4 or so years of EVE, I've yet to be suicide ganked?

I have left freighters floating around on Jita 4-4 for hours due to alt tabbing and forgetting about them. I've done the same thing on gates in pimped out mission ships, and all manner of stupid actions which should have resulted in me being suicide ganked. I feel left out to be honest.

+1

Could be your body odor?

But truly, same here. Never been ganked w/o actually doing something stoopid enough to deserve it.

One thing I NEVER did was fill a freighter with BP's. NEVER. That's what fast frigates MANUALLY FLOWN to the trade hubs are for.

I once stood in the sun for 8 hours without a hat and got so badly sunburnt I spent 5 days in hospital. Damn sun!!

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."