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[Winter] Attack Cruisers

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Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#141 - 2012-09-18 18:40:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Edit: deleted my rant about tight fittings after realizing that Pulse lasers get a PG reduction too.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#142 - 2012-09-18 18:44:48 UTC
Quote:
Stabber:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret firing speed
7.5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret falloff
Slot layout: 5 H(-1), 4 M (+1), 5 L (+2), 4 Turrets, 1 Launchers
Fittings: 715 PWG (+15), 350 CPU (+50)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1500(+15) / 1400(+150) / 1400(+111)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1200(+137.5) / 427.5s(+46.25s) / 2.8(+0.01)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 285(+54) / 0.5(+0.02) / 11400000 / 5.3s (+0.2)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 15 / 15
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 47.5km(+7.5) / 320(+15) / 5
Sensor strength: 13 Ladar (+3)
Signature radius: 105
Cargo capacity: 420


this is what i would do to the stabber...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#143 - 2012-09-18 18:45:59 UTC
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

Quote:
Caracal:

Damn, this ship is going to be somewhere between the Navy Caracal and Navy Osprey in mobility. This ship combined with missiles and ewar is going to be ******* brutal.
Methinks somebody has not read the missile nerf thread.


No, I read it. The 25% range nerf is totally meaningless to HML and the 20% damage nerf is completely offset by the extra fittings and low slots on the Caracal. The ship is tons better than it is today. I haven't looked at whether or not HAMs are legit on the Caracal yet, but HAM + TE might be pretty amazing as well.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#144 - 2012-09-18 18:58:46 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

I'll have to play around with it, but at a glance I'm not excited. That makes me sad because the Omen was the ship I was most excited about.

What were you hoping for?


The Omen cannot possibly hope to be successful because it's the only attack cruiser that's being forced to armor tank (3 mids). The minor range difference between the Null Thorax and Pulse Omen is more than overcome by how absurdly fast the Thorax is. The Caracal has mids galore for ewar and is pretty damn fast with great damage projection.

What I was honestly hoping to see was a fast and agile Omen with optimal range + damage bonus instead of ROF+Cap. I'm also disappointed by how many drones are being thrown onto the newly buffed ships.

Quote:

Liang Nuren wrote:

I guess it's a big improvement, but I don't think it's going to compete with the Caracal and Thorax.

-Liang

I don't think it will compete with the current Rupture.


It'll work just like the Vaga/Cynabal do, except be worse at it. I imagine a kiting Stabber would beat a Rupture handily.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Alara IonStorm
#145 - 2012-09-18 19:07:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Liang Nuren wrote:

What I was honestly hoping to see was a fast and agile Omen with optimal range + damage bonus instead of ROF+Cap. I'm also disappointed by how many drones are being thrown onto the newly buffed ships.

I was hoping to see it Apoc'd as well. I don't think throwing a Cruiser sized Drone Bay is really that bad a thing.

Liang Nuren wrote:

It'll work just like the Vaga/Cynabal do, except be worse at it. I imagine a kiting Stabber would beat a Rupture handily.

-Liang

With 1 Small Drone / 4 Guns and 1 Dmg Bonus?

I don't see it doing enough Dmg to break it down first, especially with a flight of the Ruptures Drones on it. Escape maybe but the Dmg it can project is a little low.

I would like to see it with a 25-30m3 Drone Bay like the Rupture, 5th Turret as well but mainly the bay.
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#146 - 2012-09-18 19:08:22 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

Quote:
Caracal:

Damn, this ship is going to be somewhere between the Navy Caracal and Navy Osprey in mobility. This ship combined with missiles and ewar is going to be ******* brutal.
Methinks somebody has not read the missile nerf thread.


No, I read it. The 25% range nerf is totally meaningless to HML and the 20% damage nerf is completely offset by the extra fittings and low slots on the Caracal. The ship is tons better than it is today. I haven't looked at whether or not HAMs are legit on the Caracal yet, but HAM + TE might be pretty amazing as well.

-Liang
Reckon we have different definitions of "amazing" and "tons better". 20% damage nerf is the equivalent of losing a launcher. Even with the RoF bonus and 2 extra low slots you're not surpassing the current Crapacal by much. Sure it gets the extra 50m/s, about 10% more base hp, and a bit more cap (still has cap problems though) but doesn't really seem that much better.

And HAMs appear like they will fit with some mods. But it still looks pretty glass-cannon. Might be good in some situations, not so much against frigs though with only 2 drones for defense.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#147 - 2012-09-18 19:14:49 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

Quote:
Caracal:

Damn, this ship is going to be somewhere between the Navy Caracal and Navy Osprey in mobility. This ship combined with missiles and ewar is going to be ******* brutal.
Methinks somebody has not read the missile nerf thread.


No, I read it. The 25% range nerf is totally meaningless to HML and the 20% damage nerf is completely offset by the extra fittings and low slots on the Caracal. The ship is tons better than it is today. I haven't looked at whether or not HAMs are legit on the Caracal yet, but HAM + TE might be pretty amazing as well.

-Liang


Personally, I'm of the opinion it might actually be better off with Light Assault launchers with Fury lights loaded. It might actually get better (or just similar) DPS than an HML Caracal with possibly smaller explosion radii and with a greater explosion velocity, while also being quite capable against frigates with a quick ammo swap. Also, the Light Assault launchers have lower fitting requirements than HML's, and the range won't be too short with the Light Missiles, even Furies. I also think the increased lows will greatly improve its effectiveness against frigates.
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#148 - 2012-09-18 19:17:46 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
Personally, I'm of the opinion it might actually be better off with Light Assault launchers with Fury lights loaded. It might actually get better (or just similar) DPS than an HML Caracal with possibly smaller explosion radii and with a greater explosion velocity, while also being quite capable against frigates with a quick ammo swap. Also, the Light Assault launchers have lower fitting requirements than HML's, and the range won't be too short with the Light Missiles, even Furies. I also think the increased lows will greatly improve its effectiveness against frigates.
Good point. Especially with the changes to explosion radius and the extra 10% dmg light missiles get.
Martin0
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#149 - 2012-09-18 19:22:47 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
These things are supposed to be fast,

Stop complaining your god damn 1600´s wont fit ffs..


No.
I'm complaining that you can't get a decent dps.
A thorax with a 800mm and ions only have 24 dps more than a thorax with a 1600mm and electrons.
I would be happy to fit a 800mm if i could get good dps, maybe move the medium to a low so that i can fit anothe magstab, otherwise everyone will just shield tank it.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#150 - 2012-09-18 19:23:25 UTC
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
Personally, I'm of the opinion it might actually be better off with Light Assault launchers with Fury lights loaded. It might actually get better (or just similar) DPS than an HML Caracal with possibly smaller explosion radii and with a greater explosion velocity, while also being quite capable against frigates with a quick ammo swap. Also, the Light Assault launchers have lower fitting requirements than HML's, and the range won't be too short with the Light Missiles, even Furies. I also think the increased lows will greatly improve its effectiveness against frigates.
Good point. Especially with the changes to explosion radius and the extra 10% dmg light missiles get.


That's exactly why I'm thinking that. It'll be better against smaller, and faster targets with the Light Assaults, even Fury Lights, it should get similar DPS after the damage nerf of Heavies, and the damage buff of lights, and the extra lows and easier fitting requirements will make it even better than a 5 HML fit, in my semi-theorycrafted opinion.

Of course, there's a chance that I'm just stupid and terribly wrong.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#151 - 2012-09-18 19:23:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
Wivabel wrote:
Not happy with the thorax. With an 800 plate I can fit only IONs with a 1600 plate I cant even fit electrons without fitting mods. looks like you will not have tank or gank on this ship at the moment.

Ok I take it back it seems to fit out well on the shield side are you guys leaning towards a shield setup because that is what it looks like.

Stabber looks awesome though it is soo soo much faster than the other three may be kinda imbalanced.



Thorax comment doesn't even make sense because they haven't reduced the fitting issues... so why could you do less than you could today.




Stabber DPS is low with 4 guns I think. Can we consider getting a 5th turret slot on there? Just asking. ;p

I think the other cruisers look great. I don't think the caracal needs drones, it has plenty of anti-frig capability with the light launcher bonuses.

Omen looks like it's not going to be an exercise in cramming clowns into a clown car to get anything respectable out of it, which is awesome (not that i use lazors).

Where I am.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#152 - 2012-09-18 19:24:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
deleted
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#153 - 2012-09-18 19:30:03 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:

With 1 Small Drone / 4 Guns and 1 Dmg Bonus?

I don't see it doing enough Dmg to break it down first, especially with a flight of the Ruptures Drones on it. Escape maybe but the Dmg it can project is a little low.

I would like to see it with a 25-30m3 Drone Bay like the Rupture, 5th Turret as well but mainly the bay.


The Stabber has 2 damage bonuses. The only question you should be asking is how far away it needs to be before the falloff bonus provides more DPS than the 25% damage bonus. IIRC it's not that far - something like 8-10km.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Alara IonStorm
#154 - 2012-09-18 19:37:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Liang Nuren wrote:

The Stabber has 2 damage bonuses. The only question you should be asking is how far away it needs to be before the falloff bonus provides more DPS than the 25% damage bonus. IIRC it's not that far - something like 8-10km.

-Liang

That is factoring the Rupture isn't running Duel TE's and not taking in Drone Dmg. It might have a good chance with most current Rupture fits being lighter on HP for speed but it will take a long time to grind it down which isn't optimal in most PvP situations and scales worse in small gangs.

I like the range but the time it would take to realistically kill anything on top of the lack of Drone Defense against Frigs is something that makes me think the ship will be pretty much mothballed by most players like currently. Even if it loses a little speed I think it needs a little more kick to get it out there as a usable ship.

I am under the opinion that more people will use the new Bellicose over the Stabber for this reason. Heck probably even the new Omen over it despite the Cap deficiencies.
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#155 - 2012-09-18 19:44:06 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
That's exactly why I'm thinking that. It'll be better against smaller, and faster targets with the Light Assaults, even Fury Lights, it should get similar DPS after the damage nerf of Heavies, and the damage buff of lights, and the extra lows and easier fitting requirements will make it even better than a 5 HML fit, in my semi-theorycrafted opinion.

Of course, there's a chance that I'm just stupid and terribly wrong.
Nah, think you are pretty spot on. Ballpark figures it looks like Lights will do 200-225 dps plus whatever you use for drones. And HML Crapacal looks like 250-275 dps plus drones. So less dmg with Lights (of course), but slightly higher tank, and no worries of dps loss to speed or sig. So not bad.

All things considered, I'd go with a Neutron Shield Thorax instead.
Borg Zorg
State War Academy
Caldari State
#156 - 2012-09-18 19:54:47 UTC
So if im right,ew cruisers and logi cruiser did get 13 slots,atack cruisers all have 14 slots,so if combat cruisers allso get 14 slot VEXOR IS GETING +2 SLOTS.AWSOM.
And his dps aplaying will not be afectid by NEW TDs that i do asume will be fitid on each ship...
Coments?

Ignor my crap english
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#157 - 2012-09-18 19:58:14 UTC
Borg Zorg wrote:
So if im right,ew cruisers and logi cruiser did get 13 slots,atack cruisers all have 14 slots,so if combat cruisers allso get 14 slot VEXOR IS GETING +2 SLOTS.AWSOM.
And his dps aplaying will not be afectid by NEW TDs that i do asume will be fitid on each ship...
Coments?

Ignor my crap english
They tend to remove slots from droneboats to compensate. Well from Gallente droneboats at least. So figure +1 slot if we're lucky.
Lelob
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#158 - 2012-09-18 19:59:34 UTC
Daneel Trevize wrote:
Lelob wrote:
Thorax:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage
7.5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret tracking speed
Slot layout: 5 H, 4 M (+1), 5 L, 5 turrets
Fittings: 820 PWG, 330 CPU (+30)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1200(-324) / 1600(-41) / 1700(+175)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1450(+75) / 490s(+25.25s) / 2.8
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 235(+55) / 0.49(-0.0658) / 11280000 / 5.2s (-0.7)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 50
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 52.5km(-2.5) / 280(+21) / 6
Sensor strength: 15 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 130(-10)
Cargo capacity: 465(+200)

Everything looks good here except for this fascination CCP seems to have with giving gallente ships more structure. Sure it's "racial," but nobody gives a **** about structure tanking because there really is no such thing outside of comedy fits. If you want to change the defense on the ship, just remove more of the structure and leave the shields/armor. Seriously, these things are already very thin as it is, so reducing the shields and armor like you have here just does not make sense.
I imagine it's to deter people from fitting nanos vs overdrives (think 'ranis) and also to give you some more EHP/time to cycle reps without buffing buffer tanks.


Only idiots fit overdrives instead of nanos on their shield ships, unless they are doing something fairly niche. Nanos are simply better because of the agility and speed they provide. Also, if you are fitting nanos or od's onto your ranis you need to re-evaluate your fit because it sucks.

Quote:
pretty sure thorax will have less shield and armor because it is now top tier but will be "only" an attack cruiser, i bet vexor will gain quite some more hp in armor and shield


Yeah what a brilliant idea. A blaster boat that can quickly move in close on you with a wet noodle tank, I'm sure someone with a brain won't instantly primary that.
Onslaughtor
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#159 - 2012-09-18 20:13:31 UTC
On the note of a 10% PWG for beam reduction, I wanted to check and make sure that this applies towards Quad-light beams, because if the others beams get this treatment it could make these guns completely obsolete. Or at the very least give them a buff.
Alara IonStorm
#160 - 2012-09-18 20:18:47 UTC
Onslaughtor wrote:
it could make these guns completely obsolete.

On all the ships that currently use Quad Beams like...

Whoops you were beaten to that obsolete part.