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[Winter] Attack Cruisers

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Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#781 - 2012-11-01 20:28:01 UTC
With two HAML, you can have the same dps than a SFI (350), though the SFI is still slower. Of course the SFI have a way better tank among other advantages, but it's a navy ship, and a good one.
Randy Wray
Warcrows
Sedition.
#782 - 2012-11-01 20:44:42 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
With two HAML, you can have the same dps than a SFI (350), though the SFI is still slower. Of course the SFI have a way better tank among other advantages, but it's a navy ship, and a good one.

The SFI has a tracking bonus and a slot layout for brawling, its an entirely different ship than the basic stabber.
How do you fit guns and 2 assault launchers on there without comprimising its tank? And if you go with this fit then how are you going to fend of frigates? Your applied dps is as bad as ever with assault missiles that go out to 20km max and guns that barely track when you run your mwd.

Solo Pvper in all areas of space including wormhole space. Check out my youtube channel @ http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCd6M3xV43Af-3E1ds0tTyew/feed for mostly small scale pvp in lowsec/nullsec

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Alara IonStorm
#783 - 2012-11-01 20:49:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
With two HAML, you can have the same dps than a SFI (350), though the SFI is still slower. Of course the SFI have a way better tank among other advantages, but it's a navy ship, and a good one.

Those numbers are very, very questionable.

* To even achieve 350 DPS on a Stabber you have to fit close range ammo which is terrible for kiting even with the bonus.
* You low balled the SFI it can go above 350 DPS with 425mm barrage (375) and closer to 450 with close range Ammo using only 2 Gyro's.
* Fitting Heavy Assaults means paper DPS compared to the tracking bonus and drone bay so even if the damage did stack up which it doesn't the damage dealt would be much more inaccurate.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#784 - 2012-11-01 23:29:37 UTC
Dual prop SFI mount 180mm, and have 350dps with 2gyro/short range ammo. Indeed it's a very different kind of ship, though that mean that 350dps can work.

Indeed HAM won't hit frigates for so much, though they hit cruisers fine. And in fact, after verification, they are better than HML in explosion velocity, and with the GMP skill applying, they will have the same explosion radius.

Your point though : you need 2 TE to have enough falloff to kite in point range, and then your dps fall to 300 ; 250 at 14km, and down to 175 at 26km. Remove another 30dps if you prefer HML instead of HAML. Expect 200dps at 18km.

Maybe it's a little low. In fact, maybe a fifth turret is not a bad idea. Meh, you may be right. :-(
Mizhir
Devara Biotech
#785 - 2012-11-02 11:29:22 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Dual prop SFI mount 180mm, and have 350dps with 2gyro/short range ammo. Indeed it's a very different kind of ship, though that mean that 350dps can work.


The SFI also has the staying power to make the 350dps work. It can fit a rather solid tank unlike the stabber.

The tracking bonus of the SFI also allows it to go up close thus increasing its dmg application while the stabber is designed to fight in falloff, so the actual dps tend to be much lower than the paper dps.

❤️️💛💚💙💜
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
#786 - 2012-11-02 15:21:25 UTC
hell no on a stabber drone bay!
rather make this split weapon viable or give it another turret and ajust damage bonus.


is there a reason for giving drone bays to every combat ship bigger than a frig? if anything, reduce the number of ships with drone bays.
(and yes i have drone skills and i use them regulary, actually i like them) just reducing the number of ships with drones would be so much love for drone boats and frigs. there a still other ways to cope with pesky little frigs (neuts, smartbombs and teamplay) and would go a long way in breaking the bigger is mostly better paradigm.

the first class, which has drone bays across the board should be battleships, imho.
Meldorn Vaash
State War Academy
Caldari State
#787 - 2012-11-03 21:41:41 UTC
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:
hell no on a stabber drone bay!
rather make this split weapon viable or give it another turret and ajust damage bonus.


is there a reason for giving drone bays to every combat ship bigger than a frig? if anything, reduce the number of ships with drone bays.
(and yes i have drone skills and i use them regulary, actually i like them) just reducing the number of ships with drones would be so much love for drone boats and frigs. there a still other ways to cope with pesky little frigs (neuts, smartbombs and teamplay) and would go a long way in breaking the bigger is mostly better paradigm.

the first class, which has drone bays across the board should be battleships, imho.



YES YES YES YES a drone bay for the Stabber! 3 light drones! Huey, Dewey and Louie!!!

I like drones because gives you something to throw at frigs,AFs and destroyers for a moment of pause. Besides, neuts and smartbombs eat cap. The Stabber's cap reserve is fragile enough as it is just trying to run the MWD. Let's not make it worse...

And a 5th turret... with the PG and CPU to fit it...

And moar falloff...

AND NO DAMN MISSILES SLOTS... SPLIT WEAPONS NO GOOD...
"Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes."
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#788 - 2012-11-03 22:10:15 UTC
Meldorn Vaash wrote:
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:
hell no on a stabber drone bay!
rather make this split weapon viable or give it another turret and ajust damage bonus.


is there a reason for giving drone bays to every combat ship bigger than a frig? if anything, reduce the number of ships with drone bays.
(and yes i have drone skills and i use them regulary, actually i like them) just reducing the number of ships with drones would be so much love for drone boats and frigs. there a still other ways to cope with pesky little frigs (neuts, smartbombs and teamplay) and would go a long way in breaking the bigger is mostly better paradigm.

the first class, which has drone bays across the board should be battleships, imho.



YES YES YES YES a drone bay for the Stabber! 3 light drones! Huey, Dewey and Louie!!!

I like drones because gives you something to throw at frigs,AFs and destroyers for a moment of pause. Besides, neuts and smartbombs eat cap. The Stabber's cap reserve is fragile enough as it is just trying to run the MWD. Let's not make it worse...

And a 5th turret... with the PG and CPU to fit it...

And moar falloff...

AND NO DAMN MISSILES SLOTS... SPLIT WEAPONS NO GOOD...



You do realize that the stabber already munches frigs right?

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Alara IonStorm
#789 - 2012-11-03 22:16:45 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:

You do realize that the stabber already munches frigs right?

Along with every other Cruiser.
Meldorn Vaash
State War Academy
Caldari State
#790 - 2012-11-03 23:08:32 UTC
T1 Cruisers and Drone Bays (bay/bandwidth)

Amarr
Augoror - 20/20
Arbitrator - 50/150
Omen 40/40
Maller 15/15

Caldari
Osprey 20/20
Blackbird 10/10
Caracal 10/10
Moa 15/15

Gallente
Exequror 50/50
Celestis 50/50
Thorax 50/50
Vexor 75/125

Minmatar
Scythe 45/45
Bellicose 40/40
Stabber 0/0 ?????????????
Rupture 30/30

Between the current and proposed changes to Cruisers, one of these ships is not like the others...

Im not seeing any reason why it should not have some drone capability...
"Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes."
Kamenev Drang
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#791 - 2012-11-04 08:26:55 UTC
Not reaally liking the Hurricane nerf, but I've always had a soft spot for the 'Cane.
Teebling
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#792 - 2012-11-04 16:52:15 UTC
Dear CCP,

Please replace the old cap usage bonus on the Omen with something more useful.

It's not fair that it only gets one bonus, having to compensate the other just to use its main weapons system.

A 'bonus' indicates something additional and positive on top of the standard - such as damage increases, falloff bonuses or tracking enhancement.

Instead, the Omen's 'bonus' is just to have enough cap to actually fire guns in the first place.

Doesn't sound like much of a bonus to me.

Teebs
Alara IonStorm
#793 - 2012-11-04 16:55:49 UTC
Teebling wrote:

Please replace the old cap usage bonus on the Omen with something more useful.

Still hoping they will surprise me with a 7.5 or 10% Opt bonus + RoF > Dmg Bonus and make it a baby Zealot.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#794 - 2012-11-04 17:00:53 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Teebling wrote:

Please replace the old cap usage bonus on the Omen with something more useful.

Still hoping they will surprise me with a 7.5 or 10% Opt bonus + RoF > Dmg Bonus and make it a baby Zealot.


the only way they could balance an optimal range bonus on an omen is to nerf the range of medium lasers afterall a zealot can reach 40km optimal range easy enough

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Alara IonStorm
#795 - 2012-11-04 17:11:23 UTC
Harvey James wrote:

the only way they could balance an optimal range bonus on an omen is to nerf the range of medium lasers afterall a zealot can reach 40km optimal range easy enough

So? It has an Opt bonus, the entire point is that it is long range capable. defeat the purpose of the bonus if it was not. Point is to make these ships good not keep them bad.

More Cruisers need to be long range capable not less.
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
#796 - 2012-11-04 20:48:16 UTC
Meldorn Vaash wrote:
T1 Cruisers and Drone Bays (bay/bandwidth)

Amarr
Augoror - 20/20
Arbitrator - 50/150
Omen 40/40
Maller 15/15

Caldari
Osprey 20/20
Blackbird 10/10
Caracal 10/10
Moa 15/15

Gallente
Exequror 50/50
Celestis 50/50
Thorax 50/50
Vexor 75/125

Minmatar
Scythe 45/45
Bellicose 40/40
Stabber 0/0 ?????????????
Rupture 30/30

Between the current and proposed changes to Cruisers, one of these ships is not like the others...

Im not seeing any reason why it should not have some drone capability...


giving the stabber a drone bay would be the lazy "fix".
just may personal opinion, but 50-75% of the ships you listed, in opther words 50-75% of all T1 cruiser should loose the drone bays entirely. even without drones cruiser can be fit to kill every frigs easily, but this should be a choice, done while fitting your cruiser, not some build in feature. thats what we have destroyers for.
Meldorn Vaash
State War Academy
Caldari State
#797 - 2012-11-04 23:02:05 UTC
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:
Meldorn Vaash wrote:
T1 Cruisers and Drone Bays (bay/bandwidth)

Amarr
Augoror - 20/20
Arbitrator - 50/150
Omen 40/40
Maller 15/15

Caldari
Osprey 20/20
Blackbird 10/10
Caracal 10/10
Moa 15/15

Gallente
Exequror 50/50
Celestis 50/50
Thorax 50/50
Vexor 75/125

Minmatar
Scythe 45/45
Bellicose 40/40
Stabber 0/0 ?????????????
Rupture 30/30

Between the current and proposed changes to Cruisers, one of these ships is not like the others...

Im not seeing any reason why it should not have some drone capability...




giving the stabber a drone bay would be the lazy "fix".
just may personal opinion, but 50-75% of the ships you listed, in opther words 50-75% of all T1 cruiser should loose the drone bays entirely. even without drones cruiser can be fit to kill every frigs easily, but this should be a choice, done while fitting your cruiser, not some build in feature. thats what we have destroyers for.

giving the stabber a drone bay would be the lazy "fix".
-I disagree. It would bring it back in line with the rest of the T1 cruisers.

just may personal opinion, but 50-75% of the ships you listed, in other words 50-75% of all T1 cruiser should loose the drone bays entirely
-And you are entitled to your opinion. Thank you for expressing it! I see drones like utility slots, drone bays have their place on ships. Their utility allows a degree of flexibility that maybe couldn't be achieved with a fit alone.

even without drones cruiser can be fit to kill every frigs easily
-While I agree with you in regards to capability, not everyone wants to fit and fly cruisers as dedicated frig killers. As you mentioned, we have destroyers for that.

"Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes."
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#798 - 2012-11-04 23:37:02 UTC
Meldorn Vaash wrote:
even without drones cruiser can be fit to kill every frigs easily
-While I agree with you in regards to capability, not everyone wants to fit and fly cruisers as dedicated frig killers. As you mentioned, we have destroyers for that.


Indeed, and hence, you don't need these drones for frigate defense.
Meldorn Vaash
State War Academy
Caldari State
#799 - 2012-11-05 01:42:14 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Meldorn Vaash wrote:
even without drones cruiser can be fit to kill every frigs easily
-While I agree with you in regards to capability, not everyone wants to fit and fly cruisers as dedicated frig killers. As you mentioned, we have destroyers for that.


Indeed, and hence, you don't need these drones for frigate defense.


I disagree. There's no reason to limit the ship just because it can be fit as an anti-frigate platform. Nor should it be assumed that frigates would be the only target this ship pursues.

Now, if the whole Attack Cruiser line was limited to anti-frigate, and ship bonuses matched that capability, would the Thorax, Omen and Caracal still need their drone bays and a 5th turret/missile?
"Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes."
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#800 - 2012-11-05 02:06:11 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:

You do realize that the stabber already munches frigs right?

Along with every other Cruiser.



Uhm. no, the maller and the omen don't munch frigs :P

They just make a pretty light show all around them.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish