These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Winter] Attack Cruisers

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#761 - 2012-10-31 13:03:17 UTC
I find it amusing that you think any of the cruisers has a proper chance to kill the talos.

Unless the fight starts in scram range the odds are terrible, (Its not impossible, but the talos is like a 9:1 favorite)

Talos is the undisputed king of Burning away in the opposite direction while pressing f1 hoping stuff dies.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Hoarr
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#762 - 2012-10-31 13:57:56 UTC
Agree that omen has serious cap issues. ROF bonus is just counter-productive and should be changed to damage bonus.
Kai'rae Saarkus
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#763 - 2012-10-31 14:10:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Kai'rae Saarkus
Olerie Viliana wrote:
Almost everything you've stated is wrong. You must have no idea how to fit and fly a BC or cruiser. Drake will lol @ caracals dps until he runs out of cap. He will have time to kill the inty with drones and missiles and then chase the caracal off the field.


You haven't flown with many competent Inty pilots have you? Post-nerf a Drake will not be able to reliably drive off well flown inties quickly. ALso, a fairly standard Caracal fit can happily perma-kite a Drake (particularly one that is burning towards it). I do however, take your point about a single Caracal vs a Drake. I also would never fly a Caracal with HMLs as the only DPS ship, because you know, everything will LOL@ 1 Carcal's DPS with HMLs. Post-patch it will still be the case that if there is only 1 of you (or only one Combat Ship) then a BC will be > than a CC.

Quote:
If a stabber or thorax tries to chase down a Drake, Talos, Cane, or Harby it will die. You will run out of cap long before you break their tank, and the cruisers tank will melt in the meantime.You also must not realize most drakes have webs and most canes have nuets,and they all have drones, also these ships should be fit with auto,pulse,and blaster. The higher tier BC's that get large turret bonus's are the ones that you can "get under their guns".


Ah, yes. But equally none of those ships can catch you. So you get to choose the engagement. A long burn, don't engage. A quick burn and it's doable. Whereas now it isn't. (I also only said chase down a Talos for those, a ship whose guns you can get under).

And, wow, who knew Drakes fit webs? Some, apparently, even fit 3 tackle mods on their Drakes.... what weirdos.

Srsly, though, Post-patch you don't fight Drakes within Web range in a small ship if you can deal decent damage outside of it. They have LOL bad DPS outside of it, and much better DPS inside it.

And, again, I never suggested getting under the guns of the medium gun armed ships: just those of the Talos. I'd also never say a 1v1 with a Shield Thorax or a Stabber and a Talos would be easy. But now, it is not winnable. Post-patch, it'll be an interesting fight. I mean, similar tank, similar speed, different engagement ranges... I'd agree the favourite is the Talos, but not unassailably as it is now.

Quote:
I can't imagine an FC saying "well, having 1/2 the dps, less drones, 1/3 the tank, 30% less range, and only 1 minute of cap is worth it for that 15% more speed!"


It's actually 1/2 the tank (25k is about average Cruiser tanks and 50K for BC's tanks). Also, a Thorax does as much DPS as a Cane, and 2/3 as much as a Brutix / Myrm. An Omen is about 2/3 a Harbi's DPS. Caracals do about 3/4 the applied DPS of a Drake; even Stabbers do more than 1/2 the DPS of a Cane. I also don't know where you're getting the range point from? A Stabber, out ranges a Cane; a Caracal outranges a Drake; a Thorax and Brutix have the same range, as (roughly) do an Omen and a Harbi. It's also about 50% more speed (average speed of Tier 1 and 2 BCs is about 1200m/s, average speed for CLs is >1600m/s).

And you forgot to mention 1/3 the cost.

I do, however, take your point about that cap. Cruisers probably all need a slight bump in cap across the class.

Quote:
BTW, if 6 thorax's attack 4 canes, they will all die. Best case scenario 1 thorax gets out and 1 cane dies, but then your still trading 5 thorax for 1 cane and that will only happen if the canes screw up somewhere. The 1st thorax primaried will be dead on arrival and the 2nd shortly after, the rest will get pointed, nueted and have drones on them, as well as devastating autoturret dps out to 30km.


That's absolutely true now. Post patch, I'd disagree. Thorax's will be able to keep up their guns and tackle under neuts. (Oh, I'm assuming Small boosters on those Thorax's.) If you start the engagement outside of 30km, you disengage (post-patch, the Thorax is faster, it can get away): if you start the enagement inside of 20km, you only need to burn 7km until you're in Web range and it's all over for that Cane. Added to the fact that the other Cane's first instinct will be to burn away and kite the Thorax's, and you reduce the damage of the Canes. Added to the fact that the Rax's can be using Void (large sig of a shield tanked Cane), and the 6 Rax's should burn down the first Cane just after the first ship of theirs pops, or maybe just before the second goes down. From there it's a close run thing about whether they can kill the second cane, and how quickly; and how many they can get out if they disengage.

I completely agree it would be a hard fight, and a couple of things going against the Thorax's and they lose, no question. But NOW it's a complete white wash. In future, it's a GF. My point is that the agility of the CLs makes them fun ships to fly. Their price makes them cheap ships to lose.

Also, consider the metagame. If you roll around low-sec in a 6 man BC gang, it's really hard to find fights. But if you roll around lowsec in a 6 man T1 Cruiser gang, fights will come to you.
Olerie Viliana
Spaceforce Junkies
Atomic Fusion Industries
#764 - 2012-10-31 15:05:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Olerie Viliana
Kai'rae Saarkus wrote:


You haven't flown with many competent Inty pilots have you? Post-nerf a Drake will not be able to reliably drive off well flown inties quickly. ALso, a fairly standard Caracal fit can happily perma-kite a Drake (particularly one that is burning towards it). I do however, take your point about a single Caracal vs a Drake. I also would never fly a Caracal with HMLs as the only DPS ship, because you know, everything will LOL@ 1 Carcal's DPS with HMLs. Post-patch it will still be the case that if there is only 1 of you (or only one Combat Ship) then a BC will be > than a CC.

Quote:
If a stabber or thorax tries to chase down a Drake, Talos, Cane, or Harby it will die. You will run out of cap long before you break their tank, and the cruisers tank will melt in the meantime.You also must not realize most drakes have webs and most canes have nuets,and they all have drones, also these ships should be fit with auto,pulse,and blaster. The higher tier BC's that get large turret bonus's are the ones that you can "get under their guns".


Ah, yes. But equally none of those ships can catch you. So you get to choose the engagement. A long burn, don't engage. A quick burn and it's doable. Whereas now it isn't. (I also only said chase down a Talos for those, a ship whose guns you can get under).

And, wow, who knew Drakes fit webs? Some, apparently, even fit 3 tackle mods on their Drakes.... what weirdos.

Srsly, though, Post-patch you don't fight Drakes within Web range in a small ship if you can deal decent damage outside of it. They have LOL bad DPS outside of it, and much better DPS inside it.

And, again, I never suggested getting under the guns of the medium gun armed ships: just those of the Talos. I'd also never say a 1v1 with a Shield Thorax or a Stabber and a Talos would be easy. But now, it is not winnable. Post-patch, it'll be an interesting fight. I mean, similar tank, similar speed, different engagement ranges... I'd agree the favourite is the Talos, but not unassailably as it is now.

Quote:
I can't imagine an FC saying "well, having 1/2 the dps, less drones, 1/3 the tank, 30% less range, and only 1 minute of cap is worth it for that 15% more speed!"


It's actually 1/2 the tank (25k is about average Cruiser tanks and 50K for BC's tanks). Also, a Thorax does as much DPS as a Cane, and 2/3 as much as a Brutix / Myrm. An Omen is about 2/3 a Harbi's DPS. Caracals do about 3/4 the applied DPS of a Drake; even Stabbers do more than 1/2 the DPS of a Cane. I also don't know where you're getting the range point from? A Stabber, out ranges a Cane; a Caracal outranges a Drake; a Thorax and Brutix have the same range, as (roughly) do an Omen and a Harbi. It's also about 50% more speed (average speed of Tier 1 and 2 BCs is about 1200m/s, average speed for CLs is >1600m/s).

And you forgot to mention 1/3 the cost.

I do, however, take your point about that cap. Cruisers probably all need a slight bump in cap across the class.

Quote:
BTW, if 6 thorax's attack 4 canes, they will all die. Best case scenario 1 thorax gets out and 1 cane dies, but then your still trading 5 thorax for 1 cane and that will only happen if the canes screw up somewhere. The 1st thorax primaried will be dead on arrival and the 2nd shortly after, the rest will get pointed, nueted and have drones on them, as well as devastating autoturret dps out to 30km.


That's absolutely true now. Post patch, I'd disagree. Thorax's will be able to keep up their guns and tackle under neuts. (Oh, I'm assuming Small boosters on those Thorax's.) If you start the engagement outside of 30km, you disengage (post-patch, the Thorax is faster, it can get away): if you start the enagement inside of 20km, you only need to burn 7km until you're in Web range and it's all over for that Cane. Added to the fact that the other Cane's first instinct will be to burn away and kite the Thorax's, and you reduce the damage of the Canes. Added to the fact that the Rax's can be using Void (large sig of a shield tanked Cane), and the 6 Rax's should burn down the first Cane just after the first ship of theirs pops, or maybe just before the second goes down. From there it's a close run thing about whether they can kill the second cane, and how quickly; and how many they can get out if they disengage.

I completely agree it would be a hard fight, and a couple of things going against the Thorax's and they lose, no question. But NOW it's a complete white wash. In future, it's a GF. My point is that the agility of the CLs makes them fun ships to fly. Their price makes them cheap ships to lose.

Also, consider the metagame. If you roll around low-sec in a 6 man BC gang, it's really hard to find fights. But if you roll around lowsec in a 6 man T1 Cruiser gang, fights will come to you.


1. A caracal cannot permi-kite a drake. It doesn't have the cap to do so.
2. Who puts rails on a talos? If you try to get under the guns of a blaster talos, you will die.
3. Thorax has equal dps to a cane, but 1/4 the range and less tank.
4. Stabbers dont do 1/2 the dps of a cane unless you gimp it's tank.
5. BC's go faster than 1200, they can heat almost as long as your cap lasts, and 1200 ->1600 is not a 50% increase, its a 33% increase. 1200->1800 would be a 50% increase.
6. With a booster on a thorax you will have to armor tank. Which slows you down. You wont have any cap if you burn into a cane's nuets. You will be dead in the water, with little dps.Every time your booster cycles the cap will dissapear. Only the cane you primary will pull range. Once the cane neuts you out, he can kite you with his far superior range and cap.
7. You will get fights in cruisers because they are bad, you will die.
Randy Wray
Warcrows
Sedition.
#765 - 2012-10-31 22:28:52 UTC
Even though the stabber is supposed to be a range boat its Damage output is so incredibly ****** it cant compete with the other attack cruisers.

I thought the attack cruisers were going to field good offense, but in comparison to the other attack cruisers the only thing the stabber has at the moment (after testing on duality) is speed.

An omen can easily project 300 dps with guns only to 30km while still having a drone bay, even tho it has cap problems this will beat a stabber no matter the fit anyways. The caracal has even better damage projection at least on paper and the thorax when shield fit with 2 TEs has a damage projection comparable to the stabber.

Please increase the damage bonus on the stabber, the ship atm has horrible tracking, no drones and terrible dps. Dispite the good fallof of the stabber it in no way competes with the other cruisers.

Solo Pvper in all areas of space including wormhole space. Check out my youtube channel @ http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCd6M3xV43Af-3E1ds0tTyew/feed for mostly small scale pvp in lowsec/nullsec

twitch.tv/randywray
Sheynan
Lighting the blight
#766 - 2012-10-31 23:16:49 UTC
Fun fact of the day:

A Stabber that tries to kite another cruiser will severely gimp its already pathetic dps when it orbits with MWD speed while the other cruiser has his mwd off or just pulses it, as 425mms have not enough tracking at ~24km to cope with the speed of the Stabber.

In a delicate battle of Stabber vs ShieldThorax the Thorax would just need to move without mwd and shoot with Null ammo to do more damage than the Stabber everywhere in the 28km range. If the Stabbers tried to pulse its MWD, the Thorax is agile and fast enough to catch and scram it with some mwd pulsing on its own.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#767 - 2012-11-01 00:32:19 UTC
Maybe it's not supposed to compete with the others in direct 1v1. This ship is destroyer ! And it can kill any destroyer easily.

The speed on this thing is insane, you just cannot have a comparable dps to the other cruisers.

Oh, and have you tryed a TD on the fourth mid ?
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#768 - 2012-11-01 01:18:13 UTC
Randy Wray wrote:
Even though the stabber is supposed to be a range boat its Damage output is so incredibly ****** it cant compete with the other attack cruisers.

I thought the attack cruisers were going to field good offense, but in comparison to the other attack cruisers the only thing the stabber has at the moment (after testing on duality) is speed.

An omen can easily project 300 dps with guns only to 30km while still having a drone bay, even tho it has cap problems this will beat a stabber no matter the fit anyways. The caracal has even better damage projection at least on paper and the thorax when shield fit with 2 TEs has a damage projection comparable to the stabber.

Please increase the damage bonus on the stabber, the ship atm has horrible tracking, no drones and terrible dps. Dispite the good fallof of the stabber it in no way competes with the other cruisers.



300 dps?

Scrub... Use beams.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#769 - 2012-11-01 02:24:23 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:

300 dps?

Scrub... Use beams.

Personally I prefer pulses for the ability to apply damage at range via scorch, setting up an early advantage, then when the enemy starts to flee, you burn at them with a quick swap to MF to burn them the rest of the way down.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#770 - 2012-11-01 02:35:39 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:

300 dps?

Scrub... Use beams.

Personally I prefer pulses for the ability to apply damage at range via scorch, setting up an early advantage, then when the enemy starts to flee, you burn at them with a quick swap to MF to burn them the rest of the way down.



Yes but with beams you get to use blue crystals that look really nice..

Also you do 466 dps at 20 which is also very nice.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Marzuq
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#771 - 2012-11-01 05:19:54 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:

300 dps?

Scrub... Use beams.

Personally I prefer pulses for the ability to apply damage at range via scorch, setting up an early advantage, then when the enemy starts to flee, you burn at them with a quick swap to MF to burn them the rest of the way down.



Yes but with beams you get to use blue crystals that look really nice..

Also you do 466 dps at 20 which is also very nice.


Beams still eat a lot of powergrid.
Kai'rae Saarkus
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#772 - 2012-11-01 11:29:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Kai'rae Saarkus
Olerie Viliana wrote:

1. A caracal cannot permi-kite a drake. It doesn't have the cap to do so.
2. Who puts rails on a talos? If you try to get under the guns of a blaster talos, you will die.
3. Thorax has equal dps to a cane, but 1/4 the range and less tank.
4. Stabbers dont do 1/2 the dps of a cane unless you gimp it's tank.
5. BC's go faster than 1200, they can heat almost as long as your cap lasts, and 1200 ->1600 is not a 50% increase, its a 33% increase. 1200->1800 would be a 50% increase.
6. With a booster on a thorax you will have to armor tank. Which slows you down. You wont have any cap if you burn into a cane's nuets. You will be dead in the water, with little dps.Every time your booster cycles the cap will dissapear. Only the cane you primary will pull range. Once the cane neuts you out, he can kite you with his far superior range and cap.
7. You will get fights in cruisers because they are bad, you will die.


1. The fastest Drakes commonly flown in the game go 1228m/s without boosters or implants. Post-nerf they will have a missile range of approx 60Km. A Caracal will go 1753m/s. If its only running a MWD and Invuln it's cap will last 2:11s, without the Invuln it's 3:23s. It's missiles will have a range of approx 90Km. It will take a Drake 30 seconds to close from 90km to 60Km, it will take the Caracal approx 2 cycles of an MWD to open back out again. 2 Cycles of an MWD is 270 Cap or about 25% of the Caracals cap.

That assumes the Drake is burning towards you. If it's burning away, it's more difficult: your missiles have less range, their more reducing the 30km sweet spot down to maybe 10km. This will mean you'll have to be more careful, and burn more often but you should still be fine.

2. More investigation on the Talos, and I agree with you. Baring TDs Talos wins vs a Stabber.

3. It also can fit a Scram, Web, Booster, 800mm Plates and still go faster.

4. 27K EHP Stabber, 314 DPS below. A 220mm, 2 X Med Neut cane only does 622 DPS. 622 / 2 = 311; 650 is probably a realistic figure for most fits. Maximum damage without going faction or using implants is around 800 (425s, HAMs, 3xGryos) , that Stabber will do 39.2% so yeah - Max damage build vs realistic build it is a little over 1/3 damage of a cane.

[Stabber, Kiter]
Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Gyrostabilizer II

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Warp Disruptor II

220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Prototype 'Arbalest' Rapid Light Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Light Missile
Prototype 'Arbalest' Rapid Light Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Light Missile

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I

5. I explicitly state Tier 1 and 2, so:

Ferox: 1 Nano is 1136, 0 nanos is 1038
Drake: 2 is 1228, 1 is 1136, 0 is 1038
Cyclone: 2 is 1552, 1 is 1434, 0 is 1311
Cane: 2 is 1552, 1 is 1434, 0 is 1311
Armour Cane: 1600mm, 2 armour rigs 1103 ; 1600mm 3 armour rigs 1025
Shield Brutix: 1 is 1301, 0 is 1189
Armour Brutix: Active, EXP rig is 1130, Active 3x Armour rigs is 1050, 1600mm Plate II, 1 Armour Rig is 968
Shield Myrm: 2 nanos is 1407, 1 is 1301, 0 is 1189
Armour Myrm: Active 3x Armour rigs is 957, 800mm Plate, 3 x Rigs is 901 1600mm Plate II, 3 Rigs is 821
Prophecy: 1600mm II, 3 x Armour rigs is 863 (for comparison only, I left it out of the averages because it's bait)
Shield Harbi: 1 is 1245, 0 is 1138
Armour Harbi: 800mm, 3 x Armour rigs is 922, 1600mm, 1 x Armour Rig is 954, 1600mm 3 x Rigs is 873

Except for the Cyclone and Cane and Gallente ships with Nanos, pretty well all BCs are about 1200m/s or less.

I agree 400m/s is not 50% of 1200. But, noting 1600m/s is pretty well the floor of the CLs (only trimarked, 1600mm fits fall below this) and the peak is 2400ish, overall the difference is about 50%.

6. A 25K EHP, 600 DPS (w/ Void, no overheat), 800mm Thorax goes >1700 m/s, and is more agile than a Cane with only 1 Nano.

A small booster can keep a thorax up under 1 Med Neut, under 2 I agree it will struggle. Which is why 6v4 is about the point where Rax's start becoming competitive with Canes, post-buff. It means that either 2 Thorax's aren't always neuted or 4 Thorax's are only under 1 Neut (assuming perfect co-ordination by the Canes, which is unlikely). Spreading Neuts in this way also means that the Thorax's will have approx 1 min within 12.6 Km of a target before they start running out of Cap. Which is more than enough time to kill one Cane and start on a second .

I'm also interested in how you propose the Cane that is primary will pull range? The Rax's will call the first ship that is webbed Primary, it will shortly thereafter be Scrammed, and then double webbed. It's trivial keeping a web and scram up under neuts, (particularly if you have at least 2 ships webbing and pointing the primary)

Any Cane that burns into Neut range is also within Overheated Web range, and therefore liable to become the next primary. It's also likely to be within Scram range from time to time... which isn't where I'd choose to be in a Cane when fighting outnumbered against Thorax's. So, any Cane attempting to Neut a Thorax is likely to get tackled and then be unable to choose to disengage. Which against most Cane pilots will mean they will attempt to kite you, reducing their DPS and increasing your chance of disengaging successfully after killing 1 or 2 ships.


7. CLs will get fights because people will underestimate them, they will get kills and then die. It will be lots of fun.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#773 - 2012-11-01 14:12:47 UTC
Kai'rae Saarkus wrote:

1. The fastest Drakes commonly flown in the game go 1228m/s without boosters or implants. Post-nerf they will have a missile range of approx 60Km. A Caracal will go 1753m/s. If its only running a MWD and Invuln it's cap will last 2:11s, without the Invuln it's 3:23s. It's missiles will have a range of approx 90Km. It will take a Drake 30 seconds to close from 90km to 60Km, it will take the Caracal approx 2 cycles of an MWD to open back out again. 2 Cycles of an MWD is 270 Cap or about 25% of the Caracals cap.

That assumes the Drake is burning towards you. If it's burning away, it's more difficult: your missiles have less range, their more reducing the 30km sweet spot down to maybe 10km. This will mean you'll have to be more careful, and burn more often but you should still be fine.


I see issue with this.

The Drake goes 1228m/s, and the Caracal goes 1753m/s. Over the 20 second duration (2 MWD cycles) that you claim the Caracal will make up any distance that the Drake gained on it, it will only actually have made 10500m distance.

(1753m/s * 10s) - (1228m/s * 10s) = 5250m * 2 = 10500m.

Therefore in order for the Caracal to keep out of the Drake's webbed feet of death, it would have to be running the MWD almost permanently. The momentary respite it might gain itself would soon be lost when its MWD was shut off, since the Caracal's hella slow without a MWD.

Also, this comparison is occuring in perfect conditions, in a 2v1 with tackle on the side of the Caracal. I hear that ducks fly in flocks, usually, and the Drake is no exception. A supported Drake fleet will kick the **** out of an equal numbered, and equally supported Caracal fleet. I think.
Randy Wray
Warcrows
Sedition.
#774 - 2012-11-01 16:24:22 UTC
Quote:
Maybe it's not supposed to compete with the others in direct 1v1. This ship is destroyer ! And it can kill any destroyer easily.


just what?

Quote:
The speed on this thing is insane, you just cannot have a comparable dps to the other cruisers.

Oh, and have you tryed a TD on the fourth mid ?
Im presuming youre talking about the stabber dispite not replying to me, but yes stabber with a TD in 4th mid and armor tank is decent the problem is that the thorax and omen (which are affected my a TD) both have huge drone bays which will eat you up since their applied damage is about equal to your ACs.

Your tracking is so bad unless you drop web you wont be able to kill the drones since you have no drones of your own, in which case they will be able to slow boat into a range more favourable to them if you havent got an afterburner on your stabber, but GL tracking with an AB stabber.

Solo Pvper in all areas of space including wormhole space. Check out my youtube channel @ http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCd6M3xV43Af-3E1ds0tTyew/feed for mostly small scale pvp in lowsec/nullsec

twitch.tv/randywray
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#775 - 2012-11-01 17:19:33 UTC
Randy Wray wrote:
Quote:
Maybe it's not supposed to compete with the others in direct 1v1. This ship is destroyer ! And it can kill any destroyer easily.


just what?

Quote:
The speed on this thing is insane, you just cannot have a comparable dps to the other cruisers.

Oh, and have you tryed a TD on the fourth mid ?
Im presuming youre talking about the stabber dispite not replying to me, but yes stabber with a TD in 4th mid and armor tank is decent the problem is that the thorax and omen (which are affected my a TD) both have huge drone bays which will eat you up since their applied damage is about equal to your ACs.

Your tracking is so bad unless you drop web you wont be able to kill the drones since you have no drones of your own, in which case they will be able to slow boat into a range more favourable to them if you havent got an afterburner on your stabber, but GL tracking with an AB stabber.

Kill the drones (you shouldn't have problem hitting medium drones, and light ones don't hurt so much) and don't use barrage if you are too fast for this ammo. Also note that if you cannot track your opponent, your opponent may not track you either, though, you can fit for tracking (smaller guns, rigs) or even use minmatar special tracking ammo.

And I was wrong in fact, it's not a destroyer, it's an AF... This thing is even faster than a destroyer, and faster than some AF...

With such speed, it's not with cruisers you should compare it, but with destroyer/AF.

Then it look much better : you have dps and speed of an Enyo, with way better range but less tracking. You should have better defense on top.

Really, with such speed, stabber shouldn't ever be able to compete with normal attack cruisers unless it's in the way an AF compete with them.
Randy Wray
Warcrows
Sedition.
#776 - 2012-11-01 17:37:57 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Randy Wray wrote:
Quote:
Maybe it's not supposed to compete with the others in direct 1v1. This ship is destroyer ! And it can kill any destroyer easily.


just what?

Quote:
The speed on this thing is insane, you just cannot have a comparable dps to the other cruisers.

Oh, and have you tryed a TD on the fourth mid ?
Im presuming youre talking about the stabber dispite not replying to me, but yes stabber with a TD in 4th mid and armor tank is decent the problem is that the thorax and omen (which are affected my a TD) both have huge drone bays which will eat you up since their applied damage is about equal to your ACs.

Your tracking is so bad unless you drop web you wont be able to kill the drones since you have no drones of your own, in which case they will be able to slow boat into a range more favourable to them if you havent got an afterburner on your stabber, but GL tracking with an AB stabber.

Kill the drones (you shouldn't have problem hitting medium drones, and light ones don't hurt so much) and don't use barrage if you are too fast for this ammo. Also note that if you cannot track your opponent, your opponent may not track you either, though, you can fit for tracking (smaller guns, rigs) or even use minmatar special tracking ammo.

And I was wrong in fact, it's not a destroyer, it's an AF... This thing is even faster than a destroyer, and faster than some AF...

With such speed, it's not with cruisers you should compare it, but with destroyer/AF.

Then it look much better : you have dps and speed of an Enyo, with way better range but less tracking. You should have better defense on top.

Really, with such speed, stabber shouldn't ever be able to compete with normal attack cruisers unless it's in the way an AF compete with them.

Your logic is incredibly flawed.

You cannot compare a stabber with an AF just because they have similar speed. The stabber has an incredibly much larger signature radius which means in gang situations you have to fly it differently, since it wont survive tackling the same way an enyo can.

AFs and t1 attack cruisers are supposed to live up to different roles and comparing them to eachother imo brings you completely out of context of how the stabber should be and the purpose of this thread.

Solo Pvper in all areas of space including wormhole space. Check out my youtube channel @ http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCd6M3xV43Af-3E1ds0tTyew/feed for mostly small scale pvp in lowsec/nullsec

twitch.tv/randywray
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#777 - 2012-11-01 18:17:15 UTC
Though you cannot make a cruiser faster than a frigate and as powerful as a cruiser, or you have a cynabal, a ship not too low on the OP ships list.

You cannot ignore this insane speed. Absolutely no cruiser (angel ships excluded) will ever outrun the stabber, ever, whatever you do. And the sig is rather small for a cruiser too, only logi ship having a smaller one.

With such speed, you cannot consider it on same ground than the other cruisers.
Randy Wray
Warcrows
Sedition.
#778 - 2012-11-01 18:26:14 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Though you cannot make a cruiser faster than a frigate and as powerful as a cruiser, or you have a cynabal, a ship not too low on the OP ships list.

You cannot ignore this insane speed. Absolutely no cruiser (angel ships excluded) will ever outrun the stabber, ever, whatever you do. And the sig is rather small for a cruiser too, only logi ship having a smaller one.

With such speed, you cannot consider it on same ground than the other cruisers.

I dont care about the stabber's speed, it is still useless.

I cannot tell what youre suggesting here, are you saying the stabber should remain as it is right now on duality?

It might have good speed, but as stated earlier it doesnt have the damage projection/application to in any way back this up.
You might refer to the cynabal as OP but isnt the purpose of this whole update to rebalance ships?
The stabber is the only attack cruiser that doesnt have 5 guns and a drone bay, did CCP think those 2 launcher slots would make up for that? If so they are completely wrong.

Giving the stabber a 5th gun and a small drone bay or say a 25 m3 drone bay and a 7,5% RoF bonus would certainly bring it more in line with the other cruisers.
I dont see how the speed of the stabber would make it OP in such a case, the other attack cruisers certainly have the damage projection to counter that as do most ships that this cruiser is supposed to be competing with!

Solo Pvper in all areas of space including wormhole space. Check out my youtube channel @ http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCd6M3xV43Af-3E1ds0tTyew/feed for mostly small scale pvp in lowsec/nullsec

twitch.tv/randywray
Alara IonStorm
#779 - 2012-11-01 18:55:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Though you cannot make a cruiser faster than a frigate and as powerful as a cruiser, or you have a cynabal,

It is faster then a Cynabal. I mean right now currently it is faster then a Cynabal and the current second most useless Cruiser in the game behind the Omen. Vagabond, also faster then the Cynabal and less used then it.

Why? The Cynabal has excellent, excellent Dmg projection and agility.

Giving the Stabber good but less damage then the Vegabond, less slots, less tracking and less range isn't going to make it overpowered, it will make it good.

Bouh Revetoile wrote:

With such speed, you cannot consider it on same ground than the other cruisers.

If they need to nerf the speed a tiny amount then so be it. As has been proven time and time again it doesn't need that much speed. If they dropped the base speed down to 260-265ish give it a 25m3 Drone Bay, lose the Missiles and a 5th turret it would be a perfect baby Vaga, worse in every way (Dmg, Tracking, Speed, Range) but good for the price.
Krell Kroenen
The Devil's Shadow
#780 - 2012-11-01 19:15:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Krell Kroenen
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Though you cannot make a cruiser faster than a frigate and as powerful as a cruiser, or you have a cynabal,

It is faster then a Cynabal. I mean right now currently it is faster then a Cynabal and the current second most useless Cruiser in the game behind the Omen. Vagabond, also faster then the Cynabal and less used then it.

Why? The Cynabal has excellent, excellent Dmg projection and agility.

Giving the Stabber good but less damage then the Vegabond, less slots, less tracking and less range isn't going to make it overpowered, it will make it good.

Bouh Revetoile wrote:

With such speed, you cannot consider it on same ground than the other cruisers.

If they need to nerf the speed a tiny amount then so be it. As has been proven time and time again it doesn't need that much speed. If they dropped the base speed down to 260-265ish give it a 25m3 Drone Bay, lose the Missiles and a 5th turret it would be a perfect baby Vaga, worse in every way (Dmg, Tracking, Speed, Range) but good for the price.


By all means nerf the speed some if it can be traded in for some more punch, as it stands the Stabber's real world dps is a bit too low to be worthy of it's name sake and it's new sexy model.