Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I disagree. I wouldn't mind if more mini ships used split systems. I think it's one of the things that is special to just Minmatar. Sure, it requires mini pilots to train longer and even 'gimps' dps due to damage mods not covering both systems, but that doesn't bother me much.

The cane needed a nerf.

Yet most people fly armor in pvp..Hmm wonder how that happens
Oh wait.. Caldari sucks..

Fastest ships, no cap use on guns, most of the ships have the option of dual or single use.
Easiest ships to fit by far. Some of the best tracking in game. Ridiculous fall off. Still great dps.
Arties are huge alpha and they enjoy far smaller sig rad on their ships, which adds to tanking.
Their BS have BC sig rad, just not Maelstrom. Which gets awesome dps and a huge tank.. Its called Winmatar for a reason.

Considering the short range and crappy drawbacks of HAMS.. Have you ever tried to fit them on a caracal?
Obviously not, considering that with all LVL 5 skills they leave you 105 pg left over to tank,prop and fit other mods..
Really effective there....The ship cant arm them and have a MWD or tank.
A cerb can barely squeeze them on and does not have enough pg to use a MWD and a LSE..
So try again...

with the new stats: +100 PG and +80 CPU my math says theyll have an end total of 787.5 PG and 537.5 CPU

Each launcher takes 113.4 PG and 37.5 CPU for a total of 567 PG and 187.5 CPU leaving you with 220.5 PG and 350 CPU . . . I dont see the problem . . .

Also, ive always said that it makes no sense to have missiles of the same size have different explosion velocities and explosion radii Why should they be different?

Guns track better at shorter range to compensate for the comparatively increased transversal of their targets, missiles dont have to deal with that, so their shorter ranged versions shouldnt have any better or worse factors.

Stabber: Too fast and too small, nerf a little?

The stabber will be both very fast and very small with these values. This will make it harder for both missiles and turrets to do damage to it. I will make an attempt at showing how much extra tank this would give.
Only base speeds will be considered, to avoid mixing in fittings into this, if both ships fit an AB the differance (ratio) of their performance should not change much anyway.
The missile case is easist to show. For turrets only the need for tracking will be looked at, although, the pilots can still decide to fly in a way that reduce the need for tracking, in which case the Stabber will loose its edge.



Comparison of Stabber vs a "standard cruiser" (with 125m sig radius and 225m base speed (=caracal / omen)):

Damage from heavy missiles (T1/Navy type, all skills at 5, no extra bonus from hull, modules, rigs or hardwires):
"Standard cruiser" (125m sig radius)
Vstartspeedtanking = 162m/s
Vhalfdmg = 447,4m/s
Vquarterdmg = 1235,7m/s
Vbasespeed = 225m/s * 1.25 (skill bonus) = 281m/s -> 68,7% dmg remaining from missiles

Stabber (105m sig radius)
Vstartspeedtanking = 136.1m/s
Vhalfdmg = 375,8m/s
Vquarterdmg = 1038m/s
Vbasespeed = 285m/s * 1.25 (skill bonus) = 356m/s -> 52% dmg remaining from missiles



Angular velocities against turrets (T1/Navy ammo, all skills at 5, no extra bonus from hull, modules, rigs or hardwires):
"Standard cruiser"
No penalty or bonus to tracking for medium turrets against this target size
@ 5km range, transversal = targets base speed -> angular velocity = 0.056rad/sec (target orbits around a stationary attacker)
@ 5km range, transversal = targets base speed + 281m/s -> angular velocity = 0.11rad/sec (target and attacker travelling in opposite directions, attacker is given the speed 281m/s)
@ 30km range, transversal = targets base speed -> angular velocity = 0.0094rad/sec (target orbits around a stationary attacker)
@ 30km range, transversal = targets base speed + 281m/s -> angular velocity = 0.019rad/sec (target and attacker travelling in opposite directions, attacker is given the speed 281m/s)

"Stabber"
-16% tracking penalty for medium turrets against this target size (the inverse of this number corresponds to a +19% increase to the effective angular velocity)
@ 5km range, transversal = targets base speed -> angular velocity, +19% from small target size = 0.085rad/sec (target orbits around a stationary attacker)
@ 5km range, transversal = targets base speed + 281m/s -> angular velocity, +19% from small target size = 0.15rad/sec (target and attacker travelling in opposite directions, attacker is given the speed 281m/s)
@ 30km range, transversal = targets base speed -> angular velocity, +19% from small target size = 0.014rad/sec (target orbits around a stationary attacker)
@ 30km range, transversal = targets base speed + 281m/s -> angular velocity, +19% from small target size = 0.025rad/sec (target and attacker travelling in opposite directions, attacker is given the speed 281m/s)



Summary:
Only base speeds has been considered. No AB's or speed modules have been taken into consideration. Even with AB's the comparison between the ships should remain pretty much the same, the only differance is that more speed will mean that the weapons do weaker hits each time. MWD's do not help when speed tanking due to the sig bloom (interceptors, AF's and some faction MWD's are exceptions).
A standard cruiser at base speed will take 68,7% damage from missiles, while the stabber takes 52%. Under these conditions, that is x1.32 more damage for the standard cruiser.
For turrets, the stabber will be pushing the attackers tracking value quite a bit (425mm AC's has 0.132rad/sec and Neutron blasters 0.15rad/sec, all skills V and no extra bonus). When angular velocity = tracking, the situation is mathematically identical to a optimal+falloff distance (50% hits), which leads to 40% remaining DPS with everything considered. Roughly speaking, this leads to a situation where the "standard cruiser" will take about +33% more damage than the Stabber.
This speed and size gives the Stabber, very roughly speaking, about +33% ehp compared to a "standard cruiser", against both missiles and turrets.


If this argument holds, I think it would be a good idea to nerf the Stabber a little. Either by a loss of ehp, but that makes it vulnerable to being alpha:ed. Or by giving it a >125m sig radius, to compensate for its extreme speed.

Doubling the DPS for ten times the cost sounds pretty standard for Eve.

Isn't this true for most of EvE ships/modules? Cost increase is always exponential to power increase of 'better' ships/modules.

T2 and faction ships will be comparatively less powerful for some time after tiercide as Fozzie buffs and fixes t1 ships, but we can expect things to balance out as the changes to t1 ships are allowed to trickle up to t2's. How long before that happens is another question....

The difference here is that if you die you will lose 40kk as well as time to go back refit and regroup. Vagabond's chances to die are much lower unless you're intentionally doing something stupid.