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[Winter] Attack Cruisers

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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#201 - 2012-09-19 01:25:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Liang Nuren wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Also, some people seem to have an odd preconception that the designation Attack Cruiser automatically means "Kite",... and just as many seem to think it automatically means they are all supposed to be a "close range brawler".

It means neither.

It simply means fast and hard hitting.

Obviously for some this means kiting is more effective, for others getting in quickly under their opponents guns and pummeling them. It all depends on the ship stats and how you prefer to fit/fly it.


How would you propose that we fly the new Omen? I suppose we could theoretically run XL ASB with a disruptor and FMP? The 3 mid slots and no optimal bonus is crippling when comparing the ship to the Thorax, Caracal, and even Stabber.

-Liang


Yes, I've been scowling over that one. The 4 medium drones and the 6 lows provide a lot of potential damage and/or tank, but I'm having trouble fitting it into the Attack Cruiser category in my mind with the proposed bonuses.

Still thinking on it...

Edit: You know, if that first bonus read:
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret and Medium Armor Repair capacitor use
That might have merit for reasonably fast dual rep setups, but that still makes it an odd bird for this category.

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Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#202 - 2012-09-19 01:27:43 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Also, some people seem to have an odd preconception that the designation Attack Cruiser automatically means "Kite",... and just as many seem to think it automatically means they are all supposed to be a "close range brawler".

It means neither.

It simply means fast and hard hitting.

Obviously for some this means kiting is more effective, for others getting in quickly under their opponents guns and pummeling them. It all depends on the ship stats and how you prefer to fit/fly it.


How would you propose that we fly the new Omen? I suppose we could theoretically run XL ASB with a disruptor and FMP? The 3 mid slots and no optimal bonus is crippling when comparing the ship to the Thorax, Caracal, and even Stabber.

-Liang


This may be so, but it won't stop me from flying them on my Amarr alt for the first week after the buff :D

Besides, maybe they'll have made other, yet unannounced changes by then. But I'll definitely be flying Omens just to see how they tick post patch.
Hank Hanky
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#203 - 2012-09-19 01:29:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Hank Hanky
Goldensaver wrote:



Most of the Gallente pilots I've seen fill their Explosive gap, much like how the Caldari will fill their EM resist gap. It's fully likely that EM could end up being their weakest resist, as opposed to Explosive. Besides, I think it's only fair that we get actually selectable damage types, since people love throwing that around so much, rather than one damage type that can kind of match other races DPS, and three that are absolutely sub-par.

If people want to keep arguing that "missiles are selectable damage!" then I think it's good and proper that we can actually choose our damage type, as opposed to being forced into kinetic only, unless you want to throw away an entire ship bonus. In 3/4 situations, our ship bonuses can be wasted, and it takes a large resist gap to make up for that 25% damage, or more.


i agree with you, i am in favor of removing the kinetic lock down on caldari hulls, i always felt it was vedged in for fluff reasons,

but that still leaves me with an unmodified 80% resist to kinetic on a t2 hull that will be completely wasted because of the way the resists were budgeted.

most of the gal ships resists are budgeted on a racial damage type that no longer exists, effecting pve as well as pvp, im just asking have they entertained the idea of rebudgetting galente resists since kinetic damege is not going to be used as much,
Naxy Antollare
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#204 - 2012-09-19 01:29:26 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:




Thorax:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage
7.5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret tracking speed
Slot layout: 5 H, 4 M (+1), 5 L, 5 turrets
Fittings: 820 PWG, 330 CPU (+30)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1200(-324) / 1600(-41) / 1700(+175)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1450(+75) / 490s(+25.25s) / 2.8
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 235(+55) / 0.49(-0.0658) / 11280000 / 5.2s (-0.7)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 50
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 52.5km(-2.5) / 280(+21) / 6
Sensor strength: 15 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 130(-10)
Cargo capacity: 465(+200)





Thorax hull .. is 1,875 HP now.. at least that is what i see when looking at info
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#205 - 2012-09-19 01:34:16 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:

Yes, I've been scowling over that one. The 4 medium drones and the 6 lows provide a lot of potential damage and/or tank, but I'm having trouble fitting it into the Attack Cruiser category in my mind with the proposed bonuses.

Still thinking on it...

Edit: You know, if that first bonus read:
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret and Medium Armor Repair capacitor use
That might have merit for reasonably fast dual rep setups, but that still makes it an odd bird for this category.


I'd be willing to trade some drones for an optimal bonus and a bigger capacitor. Maybe even all of the drones.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#206 - 2012-09-19 01:34:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Ranger 1 wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Also, some people seem to have an odd preconception that the designation Attack Cruiser automatically means "Kite",... and just as many seem to think it automatically means they are all supposed to be a "close range brawler".

It means neither.

It simply means fast and hard hitting.

Obviously for some this means kiting is more effective, for others getting in quickly under their opponents guns and pummeling them. It all depends on the ship stats and how you prefer to fit/fly it.


How would you propose that we fly the new Omen? I suppose we could theoretically run XL ASB with a disruptor and FMP? The 3 mid slots and no optimal bonus is crippling when comparing the ship to the Thorax, Caracal, and even Stabber.

-Liang


Yes, I've been scowling over that one. The 4 medium drones and the 6 lows provide a lot of potential damage and/or tank, but I'm having trouble fitting it into the Attack Cruiser category in my mind with the proposed bonuses.

Still thinking on it...

Edit: You know, if that first bonus read:
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret and Medium Armor Repair capacitor use
That might have merit for reasonably fast dual rep setups, but that still makes it an odd bird for this category.


You know what would actually tickle me (as I miss the odd bonus the Augoror has now) if the first bonus was changed to
10% bonus to Armor amount and Medium Energy Turret capacitor use
I think I'd be tickled pink, and it's just odd enough to be consider not "quite" a tank oriented bonus, more like quirky. Smile It would provide extra durability without slowing it down.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#207 - 2012-09-19 01:37:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Liang Nuren wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

Yes, I've been scowling over that one. The 4 medium drones and the 6 lows provide a lot of potential damage and/or tank, but I'm having trouble fitting it into the Attack Cruiser category in my mind with the proposed bonuses.

Still thinking on it...

Edit: You know, if that first bonus read:
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret and Medium Armor Repair capacitor use
That might have merit for reasonably fast dual rep setups, but that still makes it an odd bird for this category.


I'd be willing to trade some drones for an optimal bonus and a bigger capacitor. Maybe even all of the drones.

-Liang

Quite understandable, and I agree to a fair extent... but I think I'd be happier if the bonus allowed survival long enough for it's decent speed (if not hampered by now mandatory plates) to keep targets within the already decent range of it's lasers (and new flight of drones) long enough to kill them.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#208 - 2012-09-19 01:44:26 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:

Quite understandable, and I agree to a fair extent... but I think I'd be happier if the bonus allowed survival long enough for it's decent speed (if not hampered by now mandatory plates) to keep targets within the already decent range of it's lasers long enough to kill them.


IMO the range difference between lasers and blasters is pretty easy to make up when one of the ships is naturally slower,armor fit, and doesn't have the slots for range mods, while the other is naturally fast, shield fit, and has lots of slots for range mods.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#209 - 2012-09-19 01:49:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Liang Nuren wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

Quite understandable, and I agree to a fair extent... but I think I'd be happier if the bonus allowed survival long enough for it's decent speed (if not hampered by now mandatory plates) to keep targets within the already decent range of it's lasers long enough to kill them.


IMO the range difference between lasers and blasters is pretty easy to make up when one of the ships is naturally slower,armor fit, and doesn't have the slots for range mods, while the other is naturally fast, shield fit, and has lots of slots for range mods.

-Liang


I know what you mean. Still, in that particular brawl the superior tanking ability and not inconsiderable damage (and if properly fit, tracking) of the Omen could very well win out in the end. However that still leaves the Omen as the slowest, and tankiest of the "Attack Cruisers" by a large margin when considering what will be typical fits... which seems a little off.

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MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#210 - 2012-09-19 02:02:22 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Stabber:
4 Turrets
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 5 / 5

So CCP Fozzie now that the Stabber is basically the new Minmatar Shuttle how do you plan to rebalance the Minmatar Shuttle into an Attack Cruiser?


um you left out the two missles

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#211 - 2012-09-19 02:05:18 UTC
MotherMoon wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Stabber:
4 Turrets
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 5 / 5

So CCP Fozzie now that the Stabber is basically the new Minmatar Shuttle how do you plan to rebalance the Minmatar Shuttle into an Attack Cruiser?


um you left out the two missles

You know, I think I would seriously consider a couple of Rapid Light Missile Arrays' for the Stabber over the Heavies. I'd have to look at unbonused light missile range again.

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Mehall
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#212 - 2012-09-19 02:11:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Mehall
Naxy Antollare wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:




Thorax:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage
7.5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret tracking speed
Slot layout: 5 H, 4 M (+1), 5 L, 5 turrets
Fittings: 820 PWG, 330 CPU (+30)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1200(-324) / 1600(-41) / 1700(+175)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1450(+75) / 490s(+25.25s) / 2.8
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 235(+55) / 0.49(-0.0658) / 11280000 / 5.2s (-0.7)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 50
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 52.5km(-2.5) / 280(+21) / 6
Sensor strength: 15 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 130(-10)
Cargo capacity: 465(+200)





Thorax hull .. is 1,875 HP now.. at least that is what i see when looking at info

You're right. Meaning the thorax is getting a huge (540 base) HP reduction.(10.7% health nerf, plus more due to resistances etc.)


And it will still be struggling to get well into range to project it's blaster damage onto the target because you will still struggle with the cap after MWD.
Caseen
Lost in J-Space
#213 - 2012-09-19 02:55:57 UTC
Nice work CCP! HMLs definately needed some tweeking. The Hurrican changes seem a little drastic, but overall ok with it. Having trade-offs when ship fitting is a good thing.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#214 - 2012-09-19 03:25:06 UTC
CCP Fozzie,
Can you look at the following T2 charges for winter too
Hail -50% Range 0.7x tracking
Void -25% range 0.75x tracking
Conflagration -50% range 0.7x tracking
These are all close range charges and they all have a penalty to tracking as well as range, any chance the tracking penalty could be adjusted to a tracking bonus?

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#215 - 2012-09-19 03:33:06 UTC
Ashera Yune wrote:
Marcel Devereux wrote:
Ashera Yune wrote:
The stabber 5 m3 drone bay is silly. Get rid of the missiles slot, add a turret slot and 25m3 drone bay.


Actually it having any drones is silly. Keep it as it is and remove the drone.


Only Gallente ships should have Drones.

Remove drones from all ships EXCEPT FOR GALLENTE AND AMARR SHIPS.


Fix'd

Caldari = Missiles / Hybrid (drones are minimal)
Minmitar = Projectile / Missiles (drones are minimal)
Gallente = Hybrid / Drones
Amarr = Lasers (or missile) / Drones


Drones are part of the Amarr load out, and its where they belong. laser / drone is why I went Amarr to begin with. ;)

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#216 - 2012-09-19 04:19:21 UTC
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
Ashera Yune wrote:
Marcel Devereux wrote:
Ashera Yune wrote:
The stabber 5 m3 drone bay is silly. Get rid of the missiles slot, add a turret slot and 25m3 drone bay.


Actually it having any drones is silly. Keep it as it is and remove the drone.


Only Gallente ships should have Drones.

Remove drones from all ships EXCEPT FOR GALLENTE AND AMARR SHIPS.


Fix'd

Caldari = Missiles / Hybrid (drones are minimal)
Minmitar = Projectile / Missiles (drones are minimal)
Gallente = Hybrid / Drones
Amarr = Lasers (or missile) / Drones


Drones are part of the Amarr load out, and its where they belong. laser / drone is why I went Amarr to begin with. ;)

Yep, now if only they would do something a bit more interesting with the drone stats..... and make the user interface for them at least somewhat handy.

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Obsidiana
Atrament Inc.
#217 - 2012-09-19 04:47:56 UTC
Onslaughtor wrote:
Obsidiana wrote:
And the HAM Caracal is out run/damaged by the Bellicose (called it), the HM Caracal gets nerfed, and the LM Caracal gets a buff.

Nevermind how the HM nerf hurts ships besides the Drake that needed a buff.

I really dont see how your getting your numbers. They both get 4 low slots, same bonus, and the Caracal gets one more launcher. Also with the buff to HAMs the Caracal may use them more often because it gets a range bonus, where the Bellicose will have to make a choice.

If your saying that its the drones your wrong in thinking thats going to end up giving you more dps. Because we all know that people are going to fill that with ecm drones, or maybe some web drones so you can fit a painter on your shield boat.

The Caracal also has much more in the way of defenses.

As it is I think is fairly balanced. A full gank Bell could get more dps than a Caracal but in reality, for it to be a balanced ship it can't fulfill this dream. Min maxing on paper may sound like a way to win a argument but it can leave you bind to more realistic setups and probabilitys.
As damage assist, go for the Bellicose, it will do more and you get more speed and flexibility. For a small gang, go with the Bellicose for versatility and the TP bonus. For long range, HML have that no matter who fits them, so go for the Belicose who can hold range and use drones for damage, EW, or web. Yes, the Caracal has more tank, unless you try to fit tackle; meanwhile, the Bellicose will just speed tank.

Best I can think of right now it that the low drone ships need an extra slot.
That has been a balancing factor in the past.
Shaalira D'arc
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#218 - 2012-09-19 05:10:45 UTC
The new green dildo Thorax looks interesting. While the mid slots seem to encourage shield-tanking, the big cut to its basic shield value is something of an obstacle.

An armor thorax could be double web, dual prop, or fitted with gratuitous e-war. Tracking disruptor is a good choice, or even a damp depending on how e-war is balanced come winter.

Still, going full shield gank will be really tempting on a blaster boat with a tracking bonus. And the suggestion of a rail kitey thorax is worth exploring.
Aphatasis
Free Carpenters Union
#219 - 2012-09-19 05:33:47 UTC
Just wanted to add again, that it may be a mistake to use the Thorax as a Attack Cruiser.

Just check the orices of the 4 ships. Omen, Caracal and Stabber all cost around 6m, ISK, Thorax is at about 10m.
At least change the Mineral-need for building the Thorax.

Next Problem would be that if u take the T2 Ships in compare, then a single Attack Cruiser will be the hull for a HAC and a HIC, but the other 3 just have a HAC version.

Vice versa u will get a problem with the Vexor as a Combat (?) Cruiser.

Plz don't create something that is again not inline, some kind of execption that makes no sense!
In the last year or so u started to streamline a lot (jsut want to mention the streamlining of the names of the socalled named mods aka meta lvl 1 - 4) and now there will be added someone u have to explain to a beginn with "well, there is a acception cause when it got change..."
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#220 - 2012-09-19 06:02:56 UTC
Confirming Thorax current hull is actually 1,875 HP, so there is a typo in new stats, should be (-175)

Anyway, it's a bit confused ship. Weak base shield tank, and no grid to fit a reasonable armor tank.

.