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[Winter] Attack Cruisers

First post First post
Author
Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
#181 - 2012-09-18 23:37:49 UTC
*looks at Stabber changes*
YES.

YES.

YESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYES
Dato Koppla
Neuronix
#182 - 2012-09-18 23:44:03 UTC
Yeah, with some rough numbers the Stabber will have similar speed, another LSE II (netting it roughly 30k ehp), 30km falloff with short range ammo on 220s with 1 Ambit + 2 TEs, and around 315 dps with 2 rapid light launcher + 1 warrior + 2 gyros which would be needed for frig defense. As well as hopefully enough cap to run point + mwd stable.

Turning it into an excellent kiter. However I think it should get a small increase to drone bay/bandwith, 2-4 light drones would be much appreciated as currently the dps even at point blank is pretty low.
Veryez
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
#183 - 2012-09-18 23:49:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Veryez
A t1 cruiser with a falloff bonus, I'm getting faint...but the current stabber is slightly more than 2 m/s faster with lvl 5 skills (give it the extra 3 m/s, you know you want to P )
Aurelius Valentius
Valentius Corporation
Valentius Corporation Alliance
#184 - 2012-09-19 00:20:43 UTC
I was curious about the whole 1 drone thing still... seems pointless - even my Sacrilege has 15m3 to it and it's a Khanid ship...

The stabber I think could use 3x drones (warriors for anti-frigate).
5/1 slot or a 4/4 would be interesting... but whatever there... split weapons are a minmatar thing... just hard to work with

can't see neuts or nos there because this thing has a speed kite feel and if your in range of that your in rane of webs and there goes the speed tank.

I am not sure how this ship fits into the attack cruiser role - seems morre like a fast attack ship that needs to hit and run, but it doesn't have the punch... rather like my Sac again... it tanks like a beast (unlike this which speeds like a beast) but can't hit hard enough to do much.

Anyone have a fit with the new specs to round out how the stabber would fill out in this role with the changes?
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#185 - 2012-09-19 00:21:20 UTC
RAGE QU1T wrote:
CCP YOU JUST MADE THE TENGU USELESS AND NOT ON PAR WITH THE REST OF ITS T3 COUNTERPARTS, "-Damage decreased by 20% (rounded to closest digit)" MISSILES ARELEADY HAD LOW DPS AS OF RIGHT KNOW DO YOU EVEN PLAY THIS GAME. BATPHONING CSM



Heavy Missiles

-Base flight time reduced by 30%
-Base velocity increased by 6.66%
-In total, base range reduced by ~25%
-Damage decreased by 20% (rounded to closest digit)
-Affects all variant Heavy missiles, including FOF.


Tech Two Missiles

-At the moment Fury missiles at Light and Heavy sizes have a faster explosion velocity than precision missiles, we’ll be fixing this defect as part of the changes.
-Remove ship penalties from tech two missiles (ship velocity and signature radius)
Precision: Increase bonuses to explosion velocity and explosion radius, increase damage to match T1 missiles, reduce flight time slightly
Fury: Increase damage, increase penalties to explosion radius and velocity
Javelin: Just remove ship penalties
Rage: Reduce range, increase damage slightly


Jesus, can you read? Wrong thread, kid. Get back to where you belong.
Hank Hanky
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#186 - 2012-09-19 00:23:51 UTC
changes look fine, my question is where is the kinetic damage type coming from caldari,

they don't seem to have a preferred damage type that the other races are generally locked to, isnt galente default ship resists tailored vs caldari kinetic?

is there any thought to giving galente the same-ish omni damage tank that amarr have as a defence vs minmatar damage variance type? the now more selective damage type the caldari hulls can utilise vs the explosive hole in the gal hulls,

i havent been back long into eve but i recall the kinetic missile damage bonus was to trade vs the resists you had the option of exploiting,

i have read the heavy missile changes and that may go some way to equalise the damage potentials but to my understanding that still leaves non Heavy missile ships a potent buff

again i havent been back for long and have forgotten/missed alot of the stuff that has been implemented over the last few years, so feel free to enlighten me,

cheers

stagz
Perkone
Caldari State
#187 - 2012-09-19 00:25:58 UTC
+1 some good ideas in here.
BobTheExcavator
Perkone
Caldari State
#188 - 2012-09-19 00:28:20 UTC
Is the "agility" the same as the inertia modifier?
Oraac Ensor
#189 - 2012-09-19 00:33:15 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Stabber:
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 5 / 5

Have you perhaps omitted a 2 before or a 0 after those 5's?
Selinate
#190 - 2012-09-19 00:35:43 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

-Drop the powergrid usage of Focused Medium Pulse lasers by 5%
-Drop the powergrid usage of Heavy Pulse lasers by 10%
-Drop the powergrid usage of all cruiser sized beam lasers by 10%



Well this will finally make a pulse legion what it should be in PvP, ergo I pretty much endorse this...
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#191 - 2012-09-19 00:45:45 UTC
Hank Hanky wrote:
changes look fine, my question is where is the kinetic damage type coming from caldari,

they don't seem to have a preferred damage type that the other races are generally locked to, isnt galente default ship resists tailored vs caldari kinetic?

is there any thought to giving galente the same-ish omni damage tank that amarr have as a defence vs minmatar damage variance type? the now more selective damage type the caldari hulls can utilise vs the explosive hole in the gal hulls,

i havent been back long into eve but i recall the kinetic missile damage bonus was to trade vs the resists you had the option of exploiting,

i have read the heavy missile changes and that may go some way to equalise the damage potentials but to my understanding that still leaves non Heavy missile ships a potent buff

again i havent been back for long and have forgotten/missed alot of the stuff that has been implemented over the last few years, so feel free to enlighten me,

cheers


Most of the Gallente pilots I've seen fill their Explosive gap, much like how the Caldari will fill their EM resist gap. It's fully likely that EM could end up being their weakest resist, as opposed to Explosive. Besides, I think it's only fair that we get actually selectable damage types, since people love throwing that around so much, rather than one damage type that can kind of match other races DPS, and three that are absolutely sub-par.

If people want to keep arguing that "missiles are selectable damage!" then I think it's good and proper that we can actually choose our damage type, as opposed to being forced into kinetic only, unless you want to throw away an entire ship bonus. In 3/4 situations, our ship bonuses can be wasted, and it takes a large resist gap to make up for that 25% damage, or more.
Onslaughtor
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#192 - 2012-09-19 00:53:34 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
Hank Hanky wrote:
Stuff

Most of the Gallente pilots I've seen fill their Explosive gap, much like how the Caldari will fill their EM resist gap. It's fully likely that EM could end up being their weakest resist, as opposed to Explosive. Besides, I think it's only fair that we get actually selectable damage types, since people love throwing that around so much, rather than one damage type that can kind of match other races DPS, and three that are absolutely sub-par.

If people want to keep arguing that "missiles are selectable damage!" then I think it's good and proper that we can actually choose our damage type, as opposed to being forced into kinetic only, unless you want to throw away an entire ship bonus. In 3/4 situations, our ship bonuses can be wasted, and it takes a large resist gap to make up for that 25% damage, or more.


They just need to release the 'unreleased' t2 ammo for all the races. If its to awsome just leave the weapon penalties on it. I'll gladly trade sig or speed for my abaddon to fire lasers that do EM and EXP.
Obsidiana
Atrament Inc.
#193 - 2012-09-19 00:53:43 UTC
And the HAM Caracal is out run/damaged by the Bellicose (called it), the HM Caracal gets nerfed, and the LM Caracal gets a buff.

Nevermind how the HM nerf hurts ships besides the Drake that needed a buff.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#194 - 2012-09-19 01:02:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
I know the concept of combining a bonus has been considered but rejected before, but I think that if the Stabbers first bonus read:
5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret and Rapid Light , Heavy Assault, and Heavy Missile Launcher firing speed
...people might feel more comfortable with the slot/weapon layout.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Onslaughtor
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#195 - 2012-09-19 01:14:05 UTC
Obsidiana wrote:
And the HAM Caracal is out run/damaged by the Bellicose (called it), the HM Caracal gets nerfed, and the LM Caracal gets a buff.

Nevermind how the HM nerf hurts ships besides the Drake that needed a buff.

I really dont see how your getting your numbers. They both get 4 low slots, same bonus, and the Caracal gets one more launcher. Also with the buff to HAMs the Caracal may use them more often because it gets a range bonus, where the Bellicose will have to make a choice.

If your saying that its the drones your wrong in thinking thats going to end up giving you more dps. Because we all know that people are going to fill that with ecm drones, or maybe some web drones so you can fit a painter on your shield boat.

The Caracal also has much more in the way of defenses.

As it is I think is fairly balanced. A full gank Bell could get more dps than a Caracal but in reality, for it to be a balanced ship it can't fulfill this dream. Min maxing on paper may sound like a way to win a argument but it can leave you bind to more realistic setups and probabilitys.
Theo Ramone
Stryker Industries
Stryker Group
#196 - 2012-09-19 01:14:28 UTC
No more MWD bonus on the Thorax?

That....sucks.....
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#197 - 2012-09-19 01:15:11 UTC
Also, some people seem to have an odd preconception that the designation Attack Cruiser automatically means "Kite",... and just as many seem to think it automatically means they are all supposed to be a "close range brawler".

It means neither.

It simply means fast and hard hitting.

Obviously for some this means kiting is more effective, for others getting in quickly under their opponents guns and pummeling them. It all depends on the ship stats and how you prefer to fit/fly it.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#198 - 2012-09-19 01:18:39 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Also, some people seem to have an odd preconception that the designation Attack Cruiser automatically means "Kite",... and just as many seem to think it automatically means they are all supposed to be a "close range brawler".

It means neither.

It simply means fast and hard hitting.

Obviously for some this means kiting is more effective, for others getting in quickly under their opponents guns and pummeling them. It all depends on the ship stats and how you prefer to fit/fly it.


How would you propose that we fly the new Omen? I suppose we could theoretically run XL ASB with a disruptor and FMP? The 3 mid slots and no optimal bonus is crippling when comparing the ship to the Thorax, Caracal, and even Stabber.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#199 - 2012-09-19 01:18:58 UTC
Onslaughtor wrote:
Obsidiana wrote:
And the HAM Caracal is out run/damaged by the Bellicose (called it), the HM Caracal gets nerfed, and the LM Caracal gets a buff.

Nevermind how the HM nerf hurts ships besides the Drake that needed a buff.

I really dont see how your getting your numbers. They both get 4 low slots, same bonus, and the Caracal gets one more launcher. Also with the buff to HAMs the Caracal may use them more often because it gets a range bonus, where the Bellicose will have to make a choice.

If your saying that its the drones your wrong in thinking thats going to end up giving you more dps. Because we all know that people are going to fill that with ecm drones, or maybe some web drones so you can fit a painter on your shield boat.

The Caracal also has much more in the way of defenses.

As it is I think is fairly balanced. A full gank Bell could get more dps than a Caracal but in reality, for it to be a balanced ship it can't fulfill this dream. Min maxing on paper may sound like a way to win a argument but it can leave you bind to more realistic setups and probabilitys.


The main possibility that I see in these two ships is having one of each working together to marvelous effect. Smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#200 - 2012-09-19 01:25:20 UTC
Onslaughtor wrote:
Obsidiana wrote:
And the HAM Caracal is out run/damaged by the Bellicose (called it), the HM Caracal gets nerfed, and the LM Caracal gets a buff.

Nevermind how the HM nerf hurts ships besides the Drake that needed a buff.

I really dont see how your getting your numbers. They both get 4 low slots, same bonus, and the Caracal gets one more launcher. Also with the buff to HAMs the Caracal may use them more often because it gets a range bonus, where the Bellicose will have to make a choice.

If your saying that its the drones your wrong in thinking thats going to end up giving you more dps. Because we all know that people are going to fill that with ecm drones, or maybe some web drones so you can fit a painter on your shield boat.

The Caracal also has much more in the way of defenses.

As it is I think is fairly balanced. A full gank Bell could get more dps than a Caracal but in reality, for it to be a balanced ship it can't fulfill this dream. Min maxing on paper may sound like a way to win a argument but it can leave you bind to more realistic setups and probabilitys.

He likely thinks that the Bellicose will be a better HAM platform due to the fact that the Bellicose has a bonus to Target Painters, which will make it more effective against smaller ships. That's the only reason I can think of though, because with 1 less launcher, it'll have to make the sig on that dessy/frigate really big to make up the difference.