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ECM drone balancing: Lots of Research edition

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Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#41 - 2011-10-06 06:40:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Iam Widdershins
Back in the nano era, when web modules were 90%, web drones were 70% each... so yeah.

I figured you at least likely weren't his alt, though neither eventuality would surprise me.

I don't think my suggestions for ECM Lite would render ECM completely useless, but I digress. That change looks less good the more I think about it. As time goes on, the most common theme I am hearing about ECM is "why is it chance based". Given the extremely, ridiculously large granularity of the behavior (20 whole seconds, ALL OR NOTHING) making it chance based is pretty harsh.

Given that ECM does completely lock someone's ship out of a fight, though, taking it away from a chance-based model would be incredibly exploitable. I think perhaps the whole mechanic would need to be reworked.

A vision of reverse sensor damps, giving you a minimum targeting range rather than lowering your maximum, swims into my head... but seems kind of dumb.

Ned Black wrote:

So in terms of usability I do agree that ECM drones gives a lot more bang for the buck. But you can give the enemy trouble by sending ECM drones on them yourself, and thus the balance.

That is a very solid argument against the sentiment "ECM drones are unfair" (nothing is truly unfair in EVE, everyone can use anything), but it strikes me as a poor argument against the statement "ECM drones are overpowered." Like Cpt Fina said: they are almost used exclusively as a "cheap get out of jail free card," and a crutch for poor skills and FCing in gangs. 'Everyone pack ECM drones against this superior gang and we can't lose this fight.'


I do agree with you that other Ewar drones are shite. That is practically self-evident; but looking at the consistency of their shite-ness, I assumed that this was intentional. I mean, they're light drones for chrissake. They're not there to do your job FOR you, they're just there to help you out a bit. In the case of light ECM drones this gets completely turned on its head.

I don't know how long Ewar drones have been left to rot without further consideration; I know web drones were nerfed in Quantum Rise, but something tells me that they have been roughly the same since before the advent of stacking penalties. I wouldn't know for sure, as I haven't been around that long, but it's a hunch I have.

My best hope for balance in this section is CCP's promise to add Ewar drones in the Winter expansion. We can only hope and pray that the current ones get a good thrice-over during this process; if they do give them a looking-at and tweaking, it would be a declaration of their intention of the role of drones in Ewar and I can shut up and play the game.

Please, CCP, show us you can do it.

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#42 - 2011-10-06 10:46:35 UTC
See, there's a difference in what you're perceiving to be an issue here, to what I am.

In terms of 'making a difference in the fight' ECM drones have few to no outright advantages in packing the right damage drones, it is situation dependent. They can be countered within the fight, and will often have left you worse off than having damage drones. An extra 100-150dps from a flight of lights or mediums will sometimes be better than a 25%/35% jam chance, sometimes worse.

In terms of 'giving the target an opportunity to escape when **** goes south' then yeah, they pretty much make that one easy.

Leaving flame wars aside, the latter (having a killmail to show for your effort) is clearly high on your priority list, so is naturally going to **** you off.

Yeah, it's as annoying as **** when a target slips away, but that's a symptom of people's increased unwillingness to engage without a GTFO card. Usually, it's a "Lol I am in a Dramiel / Cynabal / Vagabond"- but I would wager as those ships slip out of effective use (countered harder) you'll start seeing some more lame ways of avoiding death.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#43 - 2011-10-06 21:21:00 UTC

Was anybody else surprised as I was about the "New EWAR Drones" thing?

Where I am.
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#44 - 2011-10-06 21:25:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Iam Widdershins
Bloodpetal wrote:

Was anybody else surprised as I was about the "New EWAR Drones" thing?

I know I was. Not the usual sort of thing at all.

I'm personally curious what they could possibly be doing with "new t2 modules" as well. I can think of Tractor Beams, Probe Launchers... I can't really think of anything after that.

It's too bad this doesn't encompass faction damage controls.

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Spr09
Reign of Steel
Brave Collective
#45 - 2011-10-07 01:49:57 UTC
how come i can set my 5 light ecm drones on a t2 cruiser and they won't do crap?
Smofuggra
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#46 - 2011-10-07 02:48:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Smofuggra
Long time Falcon pilot here.. Been aware of the drone issue for a while.

I personaly think the success of the drones is fine... But it does need a stacking penalty.

The best way I know to present a stacking penalty on ECM is to do the following with its mechanic:

When in combat you have a chance to succesfully lock out the targeting systems of your victim. When the lock out (jam) is successful the victim has then wait a pre-determined amount of time before he/she can make another attempt at re-acquiring a target. So it seems to me that when the victim is sitting there doing nothing because they can no longer target: internaly a pilot should be finding ways to overcome the signal disruption.

So I suggest this. With each succesful jam of a target the victim becomes more resistant to subsequent attempts. The effect of this resistance could in this case be lowering the time in which a target acquisition lockout persists or lowering the chance of a succesful target acquisition lock out in the first place.

Think of it like this (yes I'm about to go star trek on your ass); what do crew members, captains, pilots etc do when they're getting their proverbial sh!t pushed in do? The find a way to make their ships internal systems adapt. Some kind of bullshit about re-modulating signal harmonics and sh!t to overcome frequencies being used to distort the targeting arrays.


EDIT:

This concept is not a new or revolutionary idea, its used in WoW, and its referd to as a Diminishing Return. So really if I were as concerened about this subject as some I'd ask why this isn't feasible.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#47 - 2011-10-07 09:32:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
Iam Widdershins wrote:
If you and 4 of your mates pack EC-3s and go up against 5 other dudes who don't, it's going to be ridiculously terrible and you will almost certainly win if you have the slightest notion what you are doing.


If just one of those 5 is packing a smart bomb, it's going to be a completely different story. Even a medium SB will pop a whole flight in 2 pulses. Problem is, you're always in range of something to GCC on P

It doesn't really suit your highsec-station/gate-camp gameplay, so you want it nerfed.

They have about 200EHP each. I implore you to discover a way of dealing with that.


Smofuggra wrote:
So I suggest this. With each succesful jam of a target the victim becomes more resistant to subsequent attempts. The effect of this resistance could in this case be lowering the time in which a target acquisition lockout persists or lowering the chance of a succesful target acquisition lock out in the first place.


He won't like that suggestion. It still lets the target escape the first time, and he blue-balls.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#48 - 2011-10-07 10:12:33 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Phantom
Khanh'rhh wrote:
...
If just one of those 5 is packing a smart bomb, it's going to be a completely different story. Even a medium SB will pop a whole flight in 2 pulses. Problem is, you're always in range of something to GCC on P

It doesn't really suit your highsec-station/gate-camp gameplay, so you want it nerfed.

They have about 200EHP each. I implore you to discover a way of dealing with that.

...

He won't like that suggestion. It still lets the target escape the first time, and he blue-balls.



You've hardly responded to a single one of my points since you started posting here. Your answer to everything is "fit smartbombs," "fit ECCM on everything," and "use your drones to kill their ECM drones in less than 20 seconds" (I admit, that one was so laughable I actually smiled). You'll do anything but recognize that light ECM drones are, in fact, incredibly more effective on a relative scale than any other light Ewar drone, much less that something could theoretically be done about this.

All you are capable of doing is iterating over obvious ways to deal with ECM drones in nullsec. You implicitly agree, but fail to recognize, that the removal of even EC-300s from the field is almost always a top priority. You've already said everything you were going to say, and have now been reduced to repetition and basic trolling. You are done here.

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Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#49 - 2011-10-07 11:20:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
Iam Widdershins wrote:
You'll do anything but recognize that light ECM drones are, in fact, incredibly more effective on a relative scale than any other light Ewar drone, much less that something could theoretically be done about this.

I have recognized this in it's entirety. I have even said as such. The solution, however, is not to nerf the ECM drones but boost the other EWAR drones, as no one uses them because damage drones and/or ECM drones are always better. Boosting the others would address this issue.
Quote:
"use your drones to kill their ECM drones in less than 20 seconds" (I admit, that one was so laughable I actually smiled)

Your post laughably concluded that you were effectively "out of the fight" for the 60 seconds you claimed it took to deal with ECM drones.
I even posted a video of someone doing exactly what I said you should do. You seem to have ignored any points that don't support your position, though.
Quote:
You implicitly agree, but fail to recognize, that the removal of even EC-300s from the field is almost always a top priority

Priority alone is a poor indicator of measuring somethings effectiveness. It can, however, say a lot about how easily that thing can be countered. This is why you shoot shield canes before Drakes.
Quote:
You are done here

Not on your nelly.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#50 - 2011-10-07 22:50:03 UTC
Iam Widdershins wrote:
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Your post laughably concluded that you were effectively "out of the fight" for the 60 seconds you claimed it took to deal with ECM drones.

Iam Widdershins wrote:
In practice it generally takes a fair bit over a minute to get rid of a single flight of ECM drones, while distracting you from the main fight and sacrificing damage that you could have on your target instead.

Once again, Khanh'rhh demonstrates his poor reading comprehension. Or maybe this is just bad-manner falsification and exaggeration, I don't claim to know.

Sorry, I missed the point of that post. Perhaps it advanced the discussion too far for my lil ol' brain to perceive.

That, or, you've already said everything you were going to say, and have now been reduced to repetition and basic trolling. You are done here.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

CCP Phantom
C C P
C C P Alliance
#51 - 2011-10-26 10:46:42 UTC
Off topic posts removed, please stay on topic.

The feature list for the Winter Expansion 2011 mentions new EWAR drones. We will release more details about those as soon as those details are available.

CCP Phantom - Senior Community Developer
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#52 - 2011-10-26 16:09:00 UTC
CCP Phantom wrote:
Off topic posts removed, please stay on topic.

The feature list for the Winter Expansion 2011 mentions new EWAR drones. We will release more details about those as soon as those details are available.

Looking foward to ECCM drones and Energy Transfer drones.

Oops, did I say that aloud?

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Nikollai Tesla
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2011-12-02 03:56:45 UTC
Iam Widdershins wrote:


My humble, briefly-assembled suggestion:
1. target locks are not broken,
2. new target locks can be acquired, if slowly,
3. most targeted modules are reduced in effectiveness for the duration of the jam, while the rest stop working altogether,
4. all non-targeted modules continue as normal,
5. and targets do not need to be reacquired when the cycle is over.



Congratulations you just invented sensor dampners. But currently sensor dampners are underpowered compared to the other forms of E-war. Its much hard to take some one out of the fight compared to ECM, Tracking disruptions, and Neuts.



ECM drones are strong because:
A) ECM is strong
B)Drones don't take up modules but force you to give up DPS. Which is small on most ships.

Sensor Strength, Chance for 5 Drones to get a jam in 20 second period
7 54%
8 49%
9 45%
10 41%
11 38%
12 35%
13 33%
14 31%
15 29%
20 23%
25 18%

The first jam in the 20 seconds is the only thing that really counts. You should either get the upper hand in those 20 seconds or leave.

Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#54 - 2011-12-02 04:07:48 UTC
Thanks for not reading the document I made this post about. And combining it with platitudes that are obviously about a very limited set of engagement types.

And no, that is nothing at all like sensor dampeners. Sensor dampeners are not chance-based, and do not reduce the effectiveness of tackle and weapons.

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Dasrufken
Nova Ardour
#55 - 2012-02-04 19:47:10 UTC
I forgot to show my support to widders post...

Also necro \0/!!!
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#56 - 2012-02-04 20:06:46 UTC
Is it considered necro if CCP failed to deliver on their promise and the issue thus persists? Smile

What new eWar drone was added .. not seeing anything in notes or on market .. is it a cloaking drone perchance? .. hahahaha

The NEED to do an in-depth revision of all eWar as it is beyond silly with two racials (TP/Damps) never being used (damps a little, but insignificantly) and only one eWar drone ever being launched with malicious intent
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#57 - 2012-02-05 07:51:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Iam Widdershins
Edit: Reading the wrong goddamn post. BRB.


So yes, I entirely agree. I was very much looking forward to an ewar drone rework, and CCP completely failed to deliver. It was a literal handful of days before the release before we were sure that drones were not being changed.

Really hoping they do this for the summer expansion, it sorely needs work.

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Mariner6
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2012-02-06 22:30:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Mariner6
I don't see any need to nerf ECM drones at all. My god, they are the only thing left to us poor drone boat pilots as they pop instantly other than on boosted drone boats with the HP bonus. Also, there is a huge counter to the ecm drone problem.

One T1 Battle cruiser pushing the command module "Sensor Integrity II" with a mind link gives a ~42% boost to all ships sensor strengths depending on where you stick that ship in the leadership chain. Its even more on a command ship/T3. When I push this mod, ECM drones fail to be effective. Done. And any ships that do have ECCM and with the command boost, are damn near un-jammable by drones (and almost everything else).

So take the time, train the skill, and use the tools provided and mitigate the threat.

hitting ECM drones just drives the game to more vanilla, all shield fleets, every one in tackle and dd roles. Very boring. These options are open to everyone. Hell, I want some T2 ECM drones to really f people up. Where are those CCP?

Indeed, in my opinion, the info command module "Electronic Superiority" should apply its bonus to all EWAR drones as well. I mean, drone boats get f-d in the game. Nothing boosts the drones really. So why fly it? If your going to do EWAR, you might as well fly an EWAR ship, drone boats just don't have much going for them. So in the end, less variety, more boring fights with the same endless ships you see all the time.

While I'm at it, all boosts should apply to drones as well, armor, shield etc.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#59 - 2012-02-07 03:01:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Soldarius
There are lots of options when considering how to counter ECM drones. Smartbombs are one option. ECCM is another. Both of these options have their pros and cons. Smartbombs aren't so good when you're trying to get drones off of your buddy, or if you are close to someone in your own fleet. ECCM takes a mid-slot and does nothing to help you unless you are the actual target of jamming.

Sure we could nerf ECM drones easily enough by just dropping their jam strength. But meh. I'm not a big proponent of nerfing something unless it is just silly OP. ECM (drones) have counters. But their prevalence and effect on the battlefield may indicate some adjustments are necessary.

There are other options that can be looked at. Passive targeters by definition allow targeting without the use of active systems such as ladar/radar/etc. (Typically manual guidance using optical means.) Why don't these allow for targeting while jammed? Currently they are only used by gankers that don't want their target to know they are being targeted before they actually get shot. They are a high-slot item which would make them a nice module to fit in a utility slot.

Another discussion suggested having ECM reduce the max number of targets. For this to work and totally destroy the usefulness of ECM modules, the modules would have to reduce number of targets by a significant number. This would allow for proper skills to counter ECM.

Or we could just have skills that increase sensor strength. There is already a skill for longer locking range. Why not scan res and sensor strength?

Remote ECCM drones sounds very useful, though I doubt they would be fielded much. Too situational.

And as per my previous post, making ECM stacking penalized would make ECM drones alike to the other EWAR drones. Wouldn't do much for ECM modules. But if you're willing to fill your mids with non-tank modules, you damn well better a get a good benefit for flying around in a soap box.

Added: Forgot to mention something else I came up with; how about making defender missiles target only drones instead of missiles? I know this won't do jack for turrets. But that would be an effective counter to drones of all flavors, not just ECM.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
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