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ECM drone balancing: Lots of Research edition

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Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#21 - 2011-10-03 21:10:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Iam Widdershins
Lady Go Diveher wrote:
Changing ECM to work the same way like you propose? Personally, I don't like it. It would be massively overpowered.

Ah, no, I meant that it should still be chance-based, not that it should have those effects every time. It would be less powerful than it currently is but largely have the same effect, without making you feel like you just got gypped out of a fight (or if you're in the ECM ship, without forcing the target to deaggress when on a station or a gate).

As you mention, the main issue with other drones' usefulness is that they are saddled with a massive stacking penalty. You can't have everyone field light target painting drones in a fleet, because if you did they'd just stack on top of each other and do nothing. ECM drones do not suffer this impediment, and being half as strong as the heavies even in light versions, a few flights of them will swing a huge difference in a fleet -- moreso than a falcon in many cases.

And they're the light versions. I still believe they could stand to be nerfed.

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Lady Go Diveher
Doomheim
#22 - 2011-10-03 22:13:20 UTC
Yeah. Well frankly there are two ways of looking at ECM.

1) To what extent does it affect the outcome? (the power)
2) To what extent does it affect the experience? (the frustration)

Arguments over ECM tend to go back and forth, because some people are arguing the first case, and others are experiencing the latter. It sucks to get jammed. It does, however, provide a positive experience to be on the other side of it.

What you end up with is some people trying to rationalise it based on 1) and other people trying to convey their dis-taste of 2). This, will invariably devolve into "LOLUMAD" or "LOLUBUTTHURT" to the detriment of the arguments for 2).

In a tense fight, where every click and action seems to matter 200% times more than anything else, getting jammed out makes you want to slam your mouse through a wall in frustration.

Whether or not you'd have been better off with ~300 more DPS from a set of Ogre II's or a decent jam chance from the 900's is going to be situation dependent. Whether you'd have been better off with 5 Warrior II's to force the stealth bomber off the field is going to be situation dependent. From a pure balance perspective, there is never a "right" one to use. There always being a "right" one to use is a sure sign it is unbalanced.

But the other EWAR drones should really have their stacking penalty scaled back. Poor little mites :(
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#23 - 2011-10-03 22:43:03 UTC
Lady Go Diveher wrote:


In a tense fight, where every click and action seems to matter 200% times more than anything else, getting jammed out makes you want to slam your mouse through a wall in frustration.


And that right there is why its a fundamentally flawed mechanic.
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#24 - 2011-10-03 22:44:20 UTC
Lady Go Diveher wrote:
Yeah. Well frankly there are two ways of looking at ECM.

1) To what extent does it affect the outcome? (the power)
2) To what extent does it affect the experience? (the frustration)

Arguments over ECM tend to go back and forth, because some people are arguing the first case, and others are experiencing the latter. It sucks to get jammed. It does, however, provide a positive experience to be on the other side of it.

What you end up with is some people trying to rationalise it based on 1) and other people trying to convey their dis-taste of 2). This, will invariably devolve into "LOLUMAD" or "LOLUBUTTHURT" to the detriment of the arguments for 2).

In a tense fight, where every click and action seems to matter 200% times more than anything else, getting jammed out makes you want to slam your mouse through a wall in frustration.

Whether or not you'd have been better off with ~300 more DPS from a set of Ogre II's or a decent jam chance from the 900's is going to be situation dependent. Whether you'd have been better off with 5 Warrior II's to force the stealth bomber off the field is going to be situation dependent. From a pure balance perspective, there is never a "right" one to use. There always being a "right" one to use is a sure sign it is unbalanced.

But the other EWAR drones should really have their stacking penalty scaled back. Poor little mites :(

The difficulty with dealing with the stacking penalty is that if you want to do it reasonably, the best solution seems to be to make them count as fractional modules. If the stacking penalty remains constant, functioning the same as it does with modules (where the fifth stack is practically useless), you'd have to make them a bit too powerful in small numbers -- basically, they will never be any good with more than 4.

To review, stacking works by the following method:

First, the effects are ordered from strongest to weakest. For the nth module, the bonus is applied as [Bonus] / 2^(( (n-1) * 9/20)^2).

So really, this could be ported to partial module stacking; if drones counted as 0.2 drones, then the first one would be the 1st module, the second would be the 1.2th, the third would be the 1.4th, etc. The main drawback to this method would likely be inefficiency in the back-end, and probably some significant reworking and refactoring in the code base would be required to get this to work.

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Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#25 - 2011-10-04 04:02:37 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Phantom
Longer cycle time on ECM modules will either take the target out of the fight for a very long time, causing immense frustration, or fail -- causing the ECM user to die or remain ineffectual. In an extreme example, with a 5 minute cycle time, the first time ECM is applied will decide who is involved and who isn't for the rest of the fight.

Shorter cycle time actually makes ECM more effective, as it increases the number of chances for the target to be jammed and allow for escape if this is desired as well as the number of times the target must spend time re-acquiring target locks after becoming unjammed. In an extreme case, with a 0.5 second ECM cycle time, even with a low chance to jam for each cycle the target will become jammed almost immediately and will be repeatedly jammed before they can perform any actions in the fight.

As it stands, 20 seconds is a fairly reasonable medium between these two extremes, allowing ECM to remove the target from the fight for small portions at a time without being too fast or comprising too much of the fight in each attempt.

Oops... I used big words. Let's try that again.

Long jams bad, make game boring and players mad. Short jams bad, make ECM too strong. Jams like it is now good, nice middle ground. Stop posting, go home to mum.


Edit: Inappropriate part removed, CCP Phantom.

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Aidan Patrick
Aldebaran Foundation
#26 - 2011-10-04 07:05:23 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Phantom
Now, as far as your original idea is concerned; I could see potentially backing some adjustment to the numbers. However I agree with what has been mentioned in this thread at least twice already. Increasing the effectiveness of the other EWAR drones is more appropriate. Mind you; not by much.. but a little.

I however can't back your idea at all; as you seem to have other underlying motives for general EWAR changes that I can't stand behind. These underlying motives were mentioned in post #20. I don't feel like quoting the post.

It wont let me have an empty signature...
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#27 - 2011-10-04 07:15:41 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Phantom
Aidan Patrick wrote:
Now, as far as your original idea is concerned; I could see potentially backing some adjustment to the numbers. However I agree with what has been mentioned in this thread at least twice already. Increasing the effectiveness of the other EWAR drones is more appropriate. Mind you; not by much.. but a little.

Sure, I could get behind changing the stacking weight of other Ewar drones, such as making them stack as fractional modules. That would be fine; in fact, it sounds great. ECM drones would still need to be reduced in strength though, as they still remain both massively stronger than their counterparts and completely unburdened by stacking penalties. In this they are twofold out of line of their lesser-used compatriots.

These changes can and should go hand-in-hand, though the change in stacking mechanic remains much more difficult to implement as it modifies a mechanic that currently remains consistent throughout every other aspect of the game.


Aidan Patrick wrote:
I however can't back your idea at all; as you seem to have other underlying motives for general EWAR changes that I can't stand behind. These underlying motives were mentioned in post #20. I don't feel like quoting the post.

Alas, you caught me. I have sinister ulterior motives to create an evil, shadowy cartel of slightly changing the way ECM works (as I outlined in post 20, as a general sort of idea that maybe someone might comment on).

...What?

You are confusing the s+++ out of me. I didn't even have this idea until I wrote that post. You sir have the most elaborate tinfoil hat I have ever seen.

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Aidan Patrick
Aldebaran Foundation
#28 - 2011-10-04 08:40:24 UTC
Iam Widdershins wrote:
I can't help but find it bizarre that you call ME condescending without even casting a glance at who I was responding to:

I understand who you are responding to. Now I don't disagree that they should have more thoroughly read everything you said; however my opinion of your behavior was generated based on an accumulated survey of all of your behavior in this thread. I will refrain from speaking on this topic any further so it doesn't derail your topic too far.


Iam Widdershins wrote:
Alas, you caught me. I have sinister ulterior motives to create an evil, shadowy cartel of slightly changing the way ECM works (as I outlined in post 20, as a general sort of idea that maybe someone might comment on).


I am specifically referring to the adjustment you suggested in post 20 that makes a single ECM module do all of the below to a ship:

Iam Widdershins wrote:

In seriousness, how about this, instead of breaking all your target locks:

  • All targeted weapons (missiles and guns) increase in cycle time by 300-400% (but only during the jam cycle; 1400 artillery should not take 3 minutes to fire again if you are jammed at the wrong time).
  • Other offensive modules (energy neutralizers, energy vampires, target painters, tracking disruptors, sensor dampeners, stasis webifiers) are reduced in effectiveness by 75-80%.
  • Warp scramblers no longer turn off MWDs.
  • Warp disruptors and warp scramblers are reduced to 1/2 or 1/3 of their original point value (so they still keep you from warping out, but 1 stab will counter more than one of them).
  • Drones cannot be directly commanded to attack or repair.
  • ECM stops working entirely. ECM bursts still work.
  • Assistive modules (remote repairs, energy transfers, tracking links, remote ECCM, remote sensor boosters) stop working entirely.
  • You can no longer see the health bars on your targets.
  • Scan resolution is reduced by 80-90% (acquiring new targets while you are jammed should be slow)


ECM bursts remain the same.


That list of effects (assuming all of the effects would be applied on a successful 'jam') would be so insanely over-powered that it would make even a T1 ECM module a requirement on any ship, even with the lowest of chances for a successful jam. This would make it even more of a 'must have' than the old Energy Vampire mechanics.

It wont let me have an empty signature...
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#29 - 2011-10-04 09:04:26 UTC
Sure, yeah, I go to town on people when they're being dumb. But I'll always do my best to respect a well-thought out and relevant post, unless I've been struck on the head. (the throttle on my verbal-beatdown engine has been stuck on max for the last day or so as I have a worryingly severe headache that's in its 30th hour and still hanging about.) If I wrongly insult someone or their pet lizard I will do my best to make amends. I'm not a mean-spirited guy, I just argue to win.

Aidan Patrick wrote:
That list of effects (assuming all of the effects would be applied on a successful 'jam') would be so insanely over-powered that it would make even a T1 ECM module a requirement on any ship, even with the lowest of chances for a successful jam. This would make it even more of a 'must have' than the old Energy Vampire mechanics.

Not sure if serious.

No really, either you missed something, I made a serious misstatement, or you are a god-tier troll.

Currently:
1. all target locks are broken,
2. new target locks cannot be acquired,
3. all targeted modules deactivate and do not work at all,
4. all non-targeted modules continue as normal,
5. and all targets must be reacquired when the cycle is over.

My humble, briefly-assembled suggestion:
1. target locks are not broken,
2. new target locks can be acquired, if slowly,
3. most targeted modules are reduced in effectiveness for the duration of the jam, while the rest stop working altogether,
4. all non-targeted modules continue as normal,
5. and targets do not need to be reacquired when the cycle is over.


Basically, what I outlined is ECM Lite. It's most of the way to ECM, but not quite as bad. It should preserve the mechanic in practice while helping to alleviate the Frustration Element that Lady Go Diveher was so astute to mention in post #26, by helping the jam-ee feel that they are not entirely useless for the remainder of the fight.

You catch my drift now?

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Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#30 - 2011-10-04 10:15:01 UTC
I had a big long hurrdurr post to make. Then I realized I was doing the math wrong. *delete*

Then I made another shorter post and the forums ate it.

Briefly cause I'm tired of trying to reply, make ECM stacking penalized. This will hit drones as they need to be hit. But largely leave modules unhindered, as most folks don't concentrate multiple ECM mods on a single ship due to the typical fit of rainbow racial jammers.

Give multispecs a buff to compensate. And remove supercap EWAR immunity. That is all.

Not quite all. OP, check your TP numbers. Your total TP sigRad bonus was more than a single TP of the same kind.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Mick Jabber
Endless Possibilities Inc.
Goonswarm Federation
#31 - 2011-10-04 15:31:03 UTC
I am pretty sure that one cycle from a Smartie will smoke em all though.

Like everything in EVE, why you field X is based on your game play style and experience. Find that you are always running into a flight if ECM Drones, (I don't) fit ECCM or a Smartie, problem solved. You even get to choose which slot you want to use, HIgh, Med, Low.

ECM Drones are not Over Powered, don't like being jammed do something about, I mean besides whine.

Also the Partial ECM Idea, terrible idea, it is a blend of all the other EWAR in one.

Lets make a module that reduces cycle time (even though we can't explain why), range, lock time, lock range, and lets make it always hit, and stack up to pound you into oblivion. Why would I need a sensor damp or tracking disruptor when I can just have everyone fit an ECM Mod and get more effect every time, I mean even penalized to oblivion, there is still an effect.

ECM is fine, ECM Drones are fine.

Fix something that is actually broke, like super capitals, and don't waste dev time on this.
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#32 - 2011-10-05 06:31:51 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Phantom
Khanh'rhh wrote:
To be honest, your posts are nothing short of generic ECM whine, only this time pointed at drones and not the modules.

Are you having difficulty reading? Perhaps you should take a step back and actually read my original post again.

I suppose, given your posting so far, that's too much to ask. Alas.


Given Mick Jabber's complete inability to envision a situation in which ECM drones will ruin someone's day, in conjunction with his attempt to hijack this thread to complain about supercaps, my best guess is that he is a nullsec fleet-bear.

The people who are going to notice the incredible strength that Light ECM drones bring to a fight (Seriously! Light drones! Even a Drake can field these! Any battlecruiser can! Most cruisers can! A whole flight of them even!) are the people that actually go out there on their own or with a couple friends and get in some jolly solo/small gang fights. This is what a lot of people envision themselves doing when they want to get into EVE, this is where the best PVP videos come from, this is where the best and most exciting gameplay is, and one might argue that the increasing prevalence of small ECM drones is hurting this aspect of the game. If one was particularly put off.

Such as, after one has encountered someone using small ECM drones.

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High Star
Lords of Maelstrom
#33 - 2011-10-05 08:55:43 UTC
This game is all about tactics and set-ups if you have the wrong set-up then you will loose. ECM drones is no different.

There is a counter to all drones including ECM drones, It's called smart bombs.

As you pointed out 5 EC300's can jam a Tempest, but a Tempest fitted with one large smart bomb will destroy light drones with one cycle of a smart bomb normally, maximum 2 cycles.

Therefore the solution is simple change you set-up and fit a smart bomb to your ship and stop complain about things being overpowered cause your set-up of your ship did not take ECM drones into account
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#34 - 2011-10-05 08:59:33 UTC
High Star wrote:
This game is all about tactics and set-ups if you have the wrong set-up then you will loose. ECM drones is no different.

There is a counter to all drones including ECM drones, It's called smart bombs.

As you pointed out 5 EC300's can jam a Tempest, but a Tempest fitted with one large smart bomb will destroy light drones with one cycle of a smart bomb normally, maximum 2 cycles.

Therefore the solution is simple change you set-up and fit a smart bomb to your ship and stop complain about things being overpowered cause your set-up of your ship did not take ECM drones into account

Next time I am flying my Bhaalgorn in high-security space and fighting on a crowded gate, I will think of you and wish I had fit a smart bomb on my ship.

...NO.

You grossly oversimplify. Emphasis on "gross".

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Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#35 - 2011-10-05 09:13:58 UTC
Iam Widdershins wrote:
The people who are going to notice the incredible strength that Light ECM drones bring to a fight (Seriously! Light drones! Even a Drake can field these! Any battlecruiser can! Most cruisers can! A whole flight of them even!) are the people that actually go out there on their own or with a couple friends and get in some jolly solo/small gang fights. This is what a lot of people envision themselves doing when they want to get into EVE, this is where the best PVP videos come from, this is where the best and most exciting gameplay is, and one might argue that the increasing prevalence of small ECM drones is hurting this aspect of the game. If one was particularly put off


a) I have used light ECM drones. I have had them used against me.

b) Have any figures for the "increasing prevelance" of ECM drones .. or happy to keep posting ad-hoc evidence as fact?

c) ECM is *designed to be a force multiplier* - that you are complaining that it can turn the tables in a small gang fight, when not prepared for, is just you describing it "working as intended."

d) Your anger leads to believe butt hurt has occurred against you.

In regards to b) I decided to run the numbers. Taking 10 days of sales data in Jita from September this year, and 10 days of sales data from Jita this year. I removed excessive outliers (market buyouts)


2011 2010
1033 12521
6605 2937
5170 4154
15626 3941
9780 3321
10470 4799
6288 3915
12069 2877
6428 2171
9527 15759

Doing a t-test ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student's_t-test ) on the data, we come up with:

Null hypothesis: No difference between the years
Alt hypothesis: A difference between the years
p = 0.18
I repeated the test by downloading market data and running 50 days against 50 days. p = 0.26. Even more conclusive.

Therefore, we can conclude there is no difference.

So, again, where is the increasing prevalence? Written in fact somewhere, or just your biased opinion?

e) You come across as a complete tosser.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#36 - 2011-10-05 09:21:55 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Phantom
Iam Widdershins wrote:
This is what a lot of people envision themselves doing when they want to get into EVE, this is where the best PVP videos come from, this is where the best and most exciting gameplay is, and one might argue that the increasing prevalence of small ECM drones is hurting this aspect of the game. If one was particularly put off.


Here is a video of someone fighting outnumbered in a small gang situation, with ECM drones used against him. He wins.

Shock motherfuck of horrors!

How did he accomplish this? This task beset by you as being impossible?

He seems pretty hectic, but the video shows one thing that you seem to gloss over again, and again, and again.

Shoot the drones.

Just, *******, shoot them.

They last about 2 seconds each against your own drones. If he had his drones set to agressive, he wouldn't even have needed to retarget them.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#37 - 2011-10-05 09:34:05 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Phantom
Dear Khanh'rhh:

You are an ass and you are deliberately blowing my every word vastly out of original proportions to make yourself look as cool as possible.

I never said that ECM drones were unmanageable, or that they would always win a fight. I said that they were very much out of line when compared to other types of Ewar drones. Your posts intentionally twist my words and arguments, and so far you have provided no solid case of your own to counter mine. I'd have to break your posts up into about 50 pieces if I wanted to point out everything obviously wrong about what you've written; I won't do that, but I'll cover a couple salient points:

You say they last "about 2 seconds each" when you put your own drones on them. Well, assuming it takes you only 5 seconds of time and precious attention to lock them (a low estimate), it will generally take about 2 volleys from your drones (2 * 4 seconds = 8 seconds) to kill each one, with some time given in between to switch targets -- again, a high attention cost (say, 1 second each, at a low estimate). This is 5 + 5 * (8+1) = 60 seconds to get rid of his ECM drones. An entire minute. That's ignoring travel time for your own drones, and launching them, etc. In practice it generally takes a fair bit over a minute to get rid of a single flight of ECM drones, while distracting you from the main fight and sacrificing damage that you could have on your target instead. In the meantime many of those drones will get up to 4 chances to jam you if you're really good, and really dang lucky. And you are always carrying Warriors. Yeah, good luck.

Setting your drones on aggressive won't really work either. Almost everyone who uses drones know that they are notorious for shooting the least important/effective target on the field.

So really, anyone who says that getting rid of ECM drones is easy needs to get off their ass and PVP more. Or try doing something other than fleet PVP in 0.0. (Yes, you, smartbomb guy.)

About your silly market statistics:
I hardly think sales numbers in Jita will be much of an indication of their prevalence in the world of small-gang warfare. With only two data points a mere 1 year apart, without correcting for player count, total Jita trade volume, or trade in comparable item types, the vast majority of your post is complete toss and provably irrelevant.

I know what I've seen, and I have been seeing a lot of light ECM drones for the last year or so. I did not base my argument on any increase or decrease in the use of ECM drones, but it's something that I've been out there playing among and it seemed mentionable.

You also needn't pretend that I'm arguing against all ECM. That's like pretending that drones are the only kind of ECM out there, which is complete tripe and you (probably) know it.

All this is besides my point. They are wildly out of line with the other drone types. Your post is irrelevant on 3 layers and blatantly insulting to boot.

I'm happy for you to think I'm Stalin in a sun dress as long as you'll take your terrible, hateful posting elsewhere.

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Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#38 - 2011-10-05 20:16:59 UTC
Ned Black wrote:
With the suggestions you make ECM would essentially be useless against you. You are already sitting on the targets face when the drones land their jam, and if you don't lose your lock then they still wont get away.

No, ECM still works great. ECM drones will still be fairly effective, but less so. Please learn the difference.

I didn't say my ideas for modifying ECM were necessarily good. I'm not sure that warp disruptors still working while you're jammed is a good plan either. I'm not really advocating those modifications.


Sure, I fly Minmatar a fair bit, but it's far from the only thing I fly, and ECM drones are shockingly effective in small fights against almost anything. For instance, I've had fights in a Drake where ECM drones render me useless -- you would be an idiot to fit ECCM to a Drake, smartbombs won't fit and still don't work in empire, and the Drake has battleship-level sensor strength.

I can't help but notice that Ned Black and Mick Jabber are both characters that have NEVER been involved in PVP. Mick is still in the NPC school for chrissake. I wouldn't be entirely surprised if both of them are Khanh'rhh's alts.

Ned Black wrote:
In the end what this thread is all about is that you want the game to change to match the game style you like.

Let's pretend for a moment that is true. Let's say that I didn't actually find a wild discrepancy in modules of similar types and spend the time to demonstrate it.

I'd be far from alone in this desire. If a lot of other people don't prefer the game style brought about by the impressive effectiveness-per-tradeoff that ECM drones bring to the game, would changing the way the game works be a bad thing?

I'm pretty sure ECM drones were overlooked in the ECM updates. I could be wrong, but every indication points me this way.

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Cpt Fina
Perkone
Caldari State
#39 - 2011-10-06 05:27:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Cpt Fina
People say ecm is a force multiplier but this is only true when the ECM usage is favouring the smaller gang. If each gang bring a proportional amount of ECM then it works just as well for the larger gang as the smaller one.

The problem with ecm drones are that they are such a cheap get out of jail free card. One successful cycle and you are free from a ****** engagement.

They do have a place but they ought to be toned down a bit so that it doesn't favour the larger gang. For example... make each ecm drone add a percentage of sensor strength to the target - the more drones that are activated on a ship the higher the sensor strenght gets (would have to be an exponential increase) - thus making ecm drones stack in a sense.

Or maybe boost the sensor strength of the targeted ship for a short amount of time after each sucessful jamcycle.

Also look into inceasing the effectiveness of eccm-implants and information warfare links - maybe add eccm rigs too.
Ned Black
Driders
#40 - 2011-10-06 06:20:23 UTC
Iam Widdershins wrote:
No, ECM still works great. ECM drones will still be fairly effective, but less so. Please learn the difference.

I didn't say my ideas for modifying ECM were necessarily good. I'm not sure that warp disruptors still working while you're jammed is a good plan either. I'm not really advocating those modifications.


With the suggestions you put up ECM would have been horrible, not just less effective, but completely useless... IF they went through with the changes you suggested. Removing points would remedy that for a bit, but it would still make ECM disproportionally bad.

Iam Widdershins wrote:

Sure, I fly Minmatar a fair bit, but it's far from the only thing I fly, and ECM drones are shockingly effective in small fights against almost anything. For instance, I've had fights in a Drake where ECM drones render me useless -- you would be an idiot to fit ECCM to a Drake, smartbombs won't fit and still don't work in empire, and the Drake has battleship-level sensor strength.


ECCM sucks, but it does make you more resiliant to ECM. The biggest problem I have with ECM is that it is completely chance based, I do like the effects from it thought.

Iam Widdershins wrote:
I can't help but notice that Ned Black and Mick Jabber are both characters that have NEVER been involved in PVP. Mick is still in the NPC school for chrissake. I wouldn't be entirely surprised if both of them are Khanh'rhh's alts.


Sorry mate, no affiliation. Considering that you seem obsessed with killboards I kind of knew that would be coming... but anyway... Ever heard of posting alts? Well, that is what this char is. Even if it is pretty old you would notice that it is a complete noob char if you do a API check. I was planning on making this my pirating alt, but in the end I simply did not have what it takes to ruin peoples day by being an ass. My main have seen a fair bit combat, if not the same type of combat you prefere. You are heavy into highsec combat. I live in wormholes and so my PvP is kind of irregular, but our efficiencies are fairly similar even if you have a lot more kills/losses than my main.

Iam Widdershins wrote:
Let's pretend for a moment that is true. Let's say that I didn't actually find a wild discrepancy in modules of similar types and spend the time to demonstrate it.

I'd be far from alone in this desire. If a lot of other people don't prefer the game style brought about by the impressive effectiveness-per-tradeoff that ECM drones bring to the game, would changing the way the game works be a bad thing?

I'm pretty sure ECM drones were overlooked in the ECM updates. I could be wrong, but every indication points me this way.


Personally I disagree with what you say. I don't think they are overpowered. I rather think that the rest of the EWAR drones are the problem because they suck.

I mean come on, webbing drones that eats up 25 bandwidth/space and have 20% reduction AND stacking penalties... If you send 5 of those on that MWD cain of yours you would be traveling at approximatly 55% of your original speed. The other drones have the same problems. If you removed the stacking penalties on the drone they would be fairly ok.. and adding light 10% and medium 15% drones would be good too.

So in terms of usability I do agree that ECM drones gives a lot more bang for the buck. But you can give the enemy trouble by sending ECM drones on them yourself, and thus the balance. Besides, they are really only a problem if you fly in solo gank mode. If you have two+ ships pointing one target the drones will have little effect.
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